Wisconsin FFL Transfer Problem

[sig228]

So I sell a gun on Gunbroker. I am not an FFL and stated so in my Gunbroker ad. Like I did in the past, I obtained a copy of his FFL's license directly from the FFL, matched it up on the ATF's EZ Check, confirmed everything and sent the gun via FEDEX priority overnight directly to the FFL.

This morning the FFL calls me and tells me that he is PROHIBITED by ATF regulations from accepting the transfer. Not that he doesn't want to deal with a non FFL but he is specifically prohibited from accepting a gun from a non FFL.

I even put a copy of my drivers license and my concealed weapons license in with the gun, but he says no way. He tells me that he checked with the ATF and there is no way around it.

So he's sending the gun back to me and wants me to go to my FFL to handle the transfer. Needless to say this is causing extra expense for the person who bought the gun from me.

I couldn't find anything on the ATF website about this. Is there a Wisconsin law prohibiting the transfer from a non FFL?

I think he's full of it. So, what do the experts say here? Is he correct or full of poop?

Thanks everyone.

 

[N003k]

Er, wait, so the FFL has the gun now?

And he's sending it back to you, a non FFL?

I KNOW there's no BATFE reg against accepting a gun from an unlicensed person as an FFL, but I'm fairly sure even as a return in this type of case there IS a regulation against sending a gun TO an unlicensed person.

Honestly, at this point, I'd check with the BATF over the phone, let them know the deal, and just make sure that YOU aren't at risk of breaking any laws by knowingly accepting the gun that way.

I'm sure a few more knowledgeable in the laws might be by soon to clarify and correct.

 

[toivo]

I don't know about Wisconsin law, but if he's saying it's ATF, then he's talking about federal law. And he's wrong -- flat wrong.

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

-- http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#gca-unlicensed-transfer​

 

[dogtown tom]

sig228 So I sell a gun on Gunbroker. I am not an FFL and stated so in my Gunbroker ad. Like I did in the past, I obtained a copy of his FFL's license directly from the FFL, matched it up on the ATF's EZ Check, confirmed everything and sent the gun via FEDEX priority overnight directly to the FFL.

This morning the FFL calls me and tells me that he is PROHIBITED by ATF regulations from accepting the transfer. Not that he doesn't want to deal with a non FFL but he is specifically prohibited from accepting a gun from a non FFL.

I even put a copy of my drivers license and my concealed weapons license in with the gun, but he says no way. He tells me that he checked with the ATF and there is no way around it.

So he's sending the gun back to me and wants me to go to my FFL to handle the transfer. Needless to say this is causing extra expense for the person who bought the gun from me.

I couldn't find anything on the ATF website about this. Is there a Wisconsin law prohibiting the transfer from a non FFL?

I think he's full of it. So, what do the experts say here? Is he correct or full of poop?

Thanks everyone.

He's "full of poop" and a liar.

While it may be his personal or business policy to not accept shipments from nonlicensees, it sure as hell is perfectly legal.

Do this:
1. Notify your buyer that it was HIS responsibility to find a dealer willing to receive from a nonlicensee. You should not have to pay for the buyers poor choice of a dealer.
2. If he has already opened the box, its unlikely he can refuse the shipment and return to sender. He'll have to pay to have it returned to you.
3. In the future find a FFL that will mail your handguns USPS for a small fee. I ship several handguns each week for actual postage + $10......depending on insurance the total price rarely exceeds $35. FAAAARRRR better than the price of FedEx/UPS.

 

[oneounceload]

Er, wait, so the FFL has the gun now?

And he's sending it back to you, a non FFL?

I KNOW there's no BATFE reg against accepting a gun from an unlicensed person as an FFL, but I'm fairly sure even as a return in this type of case there IS a regulation against sending a gun TO an unlicensed person.

Honestly, at this point, I'd check with the BATF over the phone, let them know the deal, and just make sure that YOU aren't at risk of breaking any laws by knowingly accepting the gun that way.

I'm sure a few more knowledgeable in the laws might be by soon to clarify and correct.

I would think that since the gun has not been transferred, the sender is still the legal owner. It is allowable for a FFL to ship a gun back to the owner (think Ruger returning your gun to you).

I agree with others that the FFL is mistaken and the buyer will need to pay for the shipping back and then back again - thus adding hundreds unnecessarily

 

[sig228]

delete

 

[Scimmia]

Total and complete dung. Have you contacted the buyer about this? What's their take?

 

[sig228]

Buyer acknowledges he screwed up by not checking with the FFL first to verify they will accept from a non FFL.

 

[Twiki357]

Just a thought... Is it possible that this FFL had some problem with ATF (Transferring a stolen or illegal (NFA) gun or ??) in the past that he may have some special restriction placed on him by ATF.

 

[Bubbles]

I would think that since the gun has not been transferred, the sender is still the legal owner. It is allowable for a FFL to ship a gun back to the owner (think Ruger returning your gun to you).

Absolutely FALSE. The OP shipped the gun to the FFL so that it could be transferred to a non-FFL purchaser. This is legal.

The transfer FFL may NOT ship the gun back to the OP, as he is not an FFL. The only exemption to this law is when the owner of a gun ships it to a gunsmith or manufacturer so that the gun can be repaired or serviced.

Further, if the transfer FFL has a policy that he will not receive guns from non-FFL's, then he shouldn't be handing copies of his FFL out to anyone but another FFL.

Is it possible that this FFL had some problem with ATF (Transferring a stolen or illegal (NFA) gun or ??) in the past that he may have some special restriction placed on him by ATF.

ATF can't put any additional restrictions on you over and above what is permitted by law. The most they can do is scrutinize your books more than once a year, and pull your license if you have too many errors. If your books are really messed up you can get prosecuted, but it's not really all that common.

 

[cgtreml]

When all the dust has settled and you have your gun in the hands of the buyer, I would be interested in the name of this FFL holder. I don't want to make the mistake of using this guy.

 

[Salmoneye]

Answered myself...

 

[tyeo098]

Salmoneye, a common person (non-FFL) cannot mail a handgun via USPS.
An FFL can.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The buyer already paid for the gun. The seller LEGALLY shipped the gun to the FFL's address provided by the buyer. It is 100% the responsibility of the buyer to correct the problem. The buyer is the current owner of the gun. The seller has fulfilled ALL legal obligations that he was required to fulfill. As far as the seller is concerned, by law, his part of the transaction is fulfilled, and the buyer is the owner of the gun, which is in the lawful possession of the receiving FFL. Everything associated with that gun is now between the buyer and the FFL who is holding the gun.

The same would be true if the buyer turned out to be a prohibited person failing the NICS check. The buyer is still the OWNER of the gun, with the receiving FFL in POSSESSION of the gun. At that point, it is entirely between the buyer and the FFL what to do with that gun, and the seller has nothing more to do with it.

 

[brickeyee]

Salmoneye, a common person (non-FFL) cannot mail a handgun via USPS.
An FFL can.

ONLY to another FFL.

 

[Black Butte]

This one gets the bovine excrement label. I know numerous FFLs who accept firearms from out-of-state non-FFLs. All that is needed is a copy of the sellers driver's license.

 

[sig228]

Thanks for everyone's input. I called my ATF local field office (anonymously) and explained the situation. Their recommendation: do not accept delivery since I am not an FFL. So I will refuse delivery, then it goes back to the FFL in Wisconsin.

The ATF agent also confirmed that there is NO regulation in WI that prohibits an FFL from accepting a transfer from a non-FFL.

 

[Birch Knoll]

The ATF agent also confirmed that there is NO regulation in WI that prohibits an FFL from accepting a transfer from a non-FFL.

Of course not. Where else would FFLs obtain used guns from?

 

[sig228]

Navylcdr, thank you for your input. Its seems most logical. I called ATF after I read your post.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Navylcdr, thank you for your input. Its seems most logical. I called ATF after I read your post.

You are most certainly welcome. Sounds like you have a good ATF field office. We also have a good field office in Seattle.

 

[sig228]

Yes, the ATF agent was pleasant and knowledgeable and went as far as checking with an agent associate of his in WI to double check on local rules.

Like I said, I did everything by the book. I don't need an un-knowledgeable FFL jamming me up for his bad decision.

Thank to everyone else also for posting replies and comments.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Yes, the ATF agent was pleasant and knowledgeable and went as far as checking with an agent associate of his in WI to double check on local rules.

Like I said, I did everything by the book. I don't need an un-knowledgeable FFL jamming me up for his bad decision.

Thank to everyone else also for posting replies and comments.

I am an FFL, and I can assure you are on the correct side of this one. The FFL on the other end "screwed the pooch" when he sent this gun back to you, a non-FFL. That is a definite no-no.

I don't know what stupid thing he is going to do when he gets the return back, but, IT IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

Contact your buyer and let him know the gun is coming back, and that it's on him to get it from the FFL there.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Thanks for everyone's input. I called my ATF local field office (anonymously) and explained the situation. Their recommendation: do not accept delivery since I am not an FFL. So I will refuse delivery, then it goes back to the FFL in Wisconsin.

The ATF agent also confirmed that there is NO regulation in WI that prohibits an FFL from accepting a transfer from a non-FFL.

Just a thought - if that package gets left at your doorstep by the shipping company/UPS/FEDEX with no signature, what I would recommend doing is take possession of the package, DO NOT open it!, and notify the ATF for further instructions. I would guess they would want to confiscate the package and go after the FFL for illegally shipping/mailing the gun.

 

[sig228]

Just a thought - if that package gets left at your doorstep by the shipping company/UPS/FEDEX with no signature, what I would recommend doing is take possession of the package, DO NOT open it!, and notify the ATF for further instructions. I would guess they would want to confiscate the package and go after the FFL for illegally shipping/mailing the gun.

Its being delivered to my office. I already have two notices on my doors that I am refusing to take delivery of the package / return to sender.

 

[Bubbles]

Its being delivered to my office. I already have two notices on my doors that I am refusing to take delivery of the package / return to sender.

So, he's not even sending it back to the address on your DL/CCW? I'm assuming your office isn't your residence.

Ok someone pass the popcorn on this one...