With guns like the Dagger and BRG9, why pay more for FN, Glock, Walther, H&K, etc?

[bearcreek]

3-5000 rounds is a standard no one ever gets the time or expense to try in real life.

No one? Sorry. That's flat out wrong. I've done that with multiple handguns and I'm nothing special when it comes to handgun usage.

If you are saying that someone needs to counter-test a new to them gun with 3-5000 rounds, most of them are going to break the gun.

What I'm saying is that they should choose a make and model that has already had that sort of testing done, over and over, many times, by people who know what they're doing.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Duh, Cuz they dont make a Hipower

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I'm not super keen on getting a dagger because I've had Glocks and didn't like them, and it seems unlikely the cheaper copy will be substantially better.

 

[Charlie98]

A lifetime of mentorship, and a military career spread over 32 years. 3-5000 rounds is a standard no one ever gets the time or expense to try in real life.

I tell all of my carry students they need to run about 300 rounds through their carry gun with the ammo and mags they will carry to ensure reliability. I know full well most of them don't. When I deployed, I got maybe 1000 rounds total, and that was mostly me going out of my way to get more trigger time. If you are saying that someone needs to counter-test a new to them gun with 3-5000 rounds, most of them are going to break the gun.

Sorry... that's just wrong.

I got it... when I was in the Army, after Basic, I can probably count the times I fired live ammo on one hand... and have fingers left over. The military is a very controlled environment as far as weapons and shooting goes. I shot FAR more ammos on the weekends, than I fired in 3 years in the Army, at the same time, on my own dime. I easily crested 5000 rounds over the 3 years, shooting on the weekends.

I have well over 5000 rounds through my oldest 1911... and it hasn't 'broken' the gun, that's just an inane statement.

 

[tws3b2]

I drive a Kia Soul. AND, It's paid for. AND, I'M STILL Driving IT.

 

[buck460XVR]

I've said this so many times, but it still rings true. For SD/HD you need a firearm that you are comfortable with, confident in and proficient with. Period. Don't matter what someone else thinks you need. Doesn't matter what the name is on the side as long as it goes bang every time. Going bang everytime is something you need to find out for yourself as you are getting proficient with it. What the internet guru's claim ain't always necessarily true. Most of the time it comes down to "get what I have!, 'cause it's the best!". Funny how many folks think that you need a fancy paint job or grips that cost half as much as the gun, in order for it to be the ultimate "concealed carry piece". Get what makes you happy, not the rest of the internet...... but if you don't want folks dissing your choice, don't dis theirs.

 

[kidneyboy]

run 3-5000 rds through that pistol before carrying it,

Upon what are you basing this statement?

I've done that with multiple handguns

Hmmm....

 

[Tallball]

My Tanfoglios have been as reliable as my CZ's.

My RIA 1911's are completely reliable.

My Taurus 92 and my Beretta 96 have both fired a bazillion rounds with no problems.

Sometimes a less expensive copy can be as effective as the original.

Sometimes the copy is junk - my friend owned a Yugo.

It's my job as a purchaser to do some research before I make my purchase.

This workhorse cost somewhere in the low $200's in the early 90's. The Israelis shot it a whole bunch, then it ended up in my hands. I have also shot it a whole bunch. It still functions perfectly. It's a cheaper copy of a CZ75. I don't think that the Israeli military or I can complain about this "cheap piece of junk".

Tanfoglio Cohai TA90 9mm

• Tallball
• Apr 6, 2020

 

[Old_Grouch]

For me the answer to questions like this, whether it's about guns, tools, knives, whatever comes down to one point. I have never bought a high quality item and wished later that I'd bought cheap junk instead. That's not to say that the guns the OP is asking about are junk, but I'd rather spend $500.00 on something that I know will do what I need it to than gamble $300.00 on something when performance is critical. I'm okay with taking a risk on an unknown as an additional but not as an "instead of".

 

[bearcreek]

Upon what are you basing this statement?

Upon the idea that reliability of a given make and model should be a proven thing before folks choose that weapon as a defensive tool and round count is a good (although not perfect) way to measure that.

And just so we're clear, since you only quoted part of my statement. I'm not suggesting that people need to run that many rounds through any new gun that they buy. I'm saying that that's what they should do if they choose a make and model that does not have a proven track record.

Hmmm....

??

 

[tarosean]

My Tanfoglios have been as reliable as my CZ's.

My RIA 1911's are completely reliable.

My Taurus 92 and my Beretta 96 have both fired a bazillion rounds with no problems.

Sometimes a less expensive copy can be as effective as the original.

Your examples are from major corporations though. not an LGS deciding to get in the game.

 

[unclenunzie]

Field proven designs properly manufactured of proper materials will work even if you pay less for them. The question really boils down to proven designs like the many Glock gen 3 clones being properly built of proper materials. It's an unknown. Long term testing through field use across many samples would provide useful information on this. But they are not yet proven except by individual user samples so far as I am aware.

This is the intangible you are getting when buying service grade top tier pistols like glock, H&K, S&W, etc. The clones may turn out to be long term great pistols in every way, like the CZ-75 clones/copies, but that takes time to find out.

 

[Tinker-S]

Some people are on the delusion of engaging somebody in a gun fight like in the Western movies!

 

[Tinker-S]

I drive a Kia Soul. AND, It's paid for. AND, I'M STILL Driving IT.

And the haters will say: Can you tow 10K pounds with it?
BLUF: Love what you have, be happy with what you are, drink your coffee according to your taste buds, etc, etc.

 

[Tinker-S]

My Tanfoglios have been as reliable as my CZ's.

My RIA 1911's are completely reliable.

My Taurus 92 and my Beretta 96 have both fired a bazillion rounds with no problems.

Sometimes a less expensive copy can be as effective as the original.

Sometimes the copy is junk - my friend owned a Yugo.

It's my job as a purchaser to do some research before I make my purchase.

This workhorse cost somewhere in the low $200's in the early 90's. The Israelis shot it a whole bunch, then it ended up in my hands. I have also shot it a whole bunch. It still functions perfectly. It's a cheaper copy of a CZ75. I don't think that the Israeli military or I can complain about this "cheap piece of junk".

Tanfoglio Cohai TA90 9mm

• Tallball
• Apr 6, 2020

Nice pistol!
I wanted one similar to the one on your post, but they are hard to come-by or I am not looking hard enough. Do not want to buy used, either.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Some people are on the delusion of engaging somebody in a gun fight like in the Western movies!

Why not, the forum is already full of delusional people engaging in word fights on the internet.

If the OP doesn't see a point to paying more for a Glock vs. a PSA Dagger, well, then that's why PSA is making Daggers. Others feel differently, which is why Glock is still making Glocks.

My thought is that the longer you shoot and the more into shooting you get, the more you notice those small differences in quality or features, and then you get more willing to spend more money on smaller improvements. Perhaps a shooter never gets all that much into shooting or doesn't get specifically into handguns, and a Dagger or a Glock or a whatever is where he tops out. Good for him, hope his gun works if he ever really needs it. Perhaps a shooter gets into Zev and Shadow Systems and Staccato and carries a Yost custom. Good for him, hope his gun works if he ever really needs it.

Truth is, you never know for sure and certain if your gun is going to go BANG when it should. I've had Glocks malfunction, expensive 1911s malfunction. Maybe your Glock is a lemon. Who can say? No manufacturer or gunsmith is perfect. And ironically the more rounds you put through it, the more parts wear you have, so although it may have gone 5,000 rounds without a malfunction, once you've done spring replacements, can you really still say it's reliable for 5,000 rounds?

85% of these questions are all people trying to emotionally justify their decisions by seeking validation from other people, and just like you won't know if 9mm or .45 ACP, or a Glock or a Sig, or a revolver or a 2011 will be 'enough' if you need it, you won't know if a Dagger or an H&K will be 'good enough.'

 

[dogtown tom]

..... and a military career spread over 32 years.......

Thank you for your service, but what did you do in those 32 years? If it wasn't directly related to handguns or instruction in CQB why mention it?
A police officer that says "I was a cop for 20 years" doesn't mean he was a patrol officer or SWAT the entire time.

This guy thinks his 25 years as a Marine officer makes him an expert on AR's: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/m...ny-defending-californias-assault-weapons-ban/
Every Marine should be embarrassed by this clown.

 

[Tinker-S]

Why not, the forum is already full of delusional people engaging in word fights on the internet.

If the OP doesn't see a point to paying more for a Glock vs. a PSA Dagger, well, then that's why PSA is making Daggers. Others feel differently, which is why Glock is still making Glocks.

My thought is that the longer you shoot and the more into shooting you get, the more you notice those small differences in quality or features, and then you get more willing to spend more money on smaller improvements. Perhaps a shooter never gets all that much into shooting or doesn't get specifically into handguns, and a Dagger or a Glock or a whatever is where he tops out. Good for him, hope his gun works if he ever really needs it. Perhaps a shooter gets into Zev and Shadow Systems and Staccato and carries a Yost custom. Good for him, hope his gun works if he ever really needs it.

Truth is, you never know for sure and certain if your gun is going to go BANG when it should. I've had Glocks malfunction, expensive 1911s malfunction. Maybe your Glock is a lemon. Who can say? No manufacturer or gunsmith is perfect. And ironically the more rounds you put through it, the more parts wear you have, so although it may have gone 5,000 rounds without a malfunction, once you've done spring replacements, can you really still say it's reliable for 5,000 rounds?

85% of these questions are all people trying to emotionally justify their decisions by seeking validation from other people, and just like you won't know if 9mm or .45 ACP, or a Glock or a Sig, or a revolver or a 2011 will be 'enough' if you need it, you won't know if a Dagger or an H&K will be 'good enough.'

I like your reply, especially the "emotionally justify their decisions by seeking validation from other people" part.
I just want to add that one aspect of reliability, not only for guns, but for many other instruments we use on our daily lives, is the ammunition/fuel/AC power we choose to feed the thing with. High performance cars demand high octane fuel, and when cheap fuel is used, well, it will perform below what is expected.
I have a 22/45 pistol that is reliable, if I feed it the "right" ammunition. During the pandemic, the "right" ammo for it was not available, so I used what was on the shelf at the store, and thus, I expected ammo induced failure to feed. It was not the gun, but other factors that made it unreliable. So, when ammo was available, I purchased enough to go to the range more often.
I will say to the OP: Purchase whatever thing that is affordable, find ammo that feeds/fires/eject reliable, along with magazines, and be happy. And hope that the "OK Corral gun fight scenario" does not happen.

 

[bearcreek]

I will say to the OP: Purchase whatever thing that is affordable, find ammo that feeds/fires/eject reliable, along with magazines, and be happy. And hope that the "OK Corral gun fight scenario" does not happen.

Agreed. Buy what is affordable, while still getting something that is probably going to be reliable. I would suggest that spending an extra $150 or so to get something that has a very long, proven track record is more than likely still within the realm of "affordable" for the vast majority of people.

 

[Tinker-S]

A lifetime of mentorship, and a military career spread over 32 years. 3-5000 rounds is a standard no one ever gets the time or expense to try in real life.

I tell all of my carry students they need to run about 300 rounds through their carry gun with the ammo and mags they will carry to ensure reliability. I know full well most of them don't. When I deployed, I got maybe 1000 rounds total, and that was mostly me going out of my way to get more trigger time. If you are saying that someone needs to counter-test a new to them gun with 3-5000 rounds, most of them are going to break the gun.

So, you mean to tell the audience you were not issued a hand-held minigun to shoot between 3 to 6K rounds a minute?
Someone wrote to you that your 32 years in the military are not relevant to your post. What do you have to say to that?
I am not instigating, just being sarcastic and smiling every time I hear/read the catch phrase "Thank you for your service". Yeah, I am a cynical SOB.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I like your reply, especially the "emotionally justify their decisions by seeking validation from other people" part.

It's not really a strike against anyone, either. What happens is that people are looking for emotional reassurance about their decisions because they see other people making different decisions from them. Maybe Joe picked a revolver, but he has been on the forums and has seen a lot of threads lately about people carrying 2011s and four spare magazines because of multi-attacker threats, and now he's second-guessing whether he is really OK with six rounds in his gun. Or Jack has been carrying a 2011, but there have been news stories about a guy getting attacked by someone hopped up on PCP and absorbing bullets like a sponge, and he's now second-guessing his decision to carry 9mm.

The only real solution is to buy cheap and expensive guns, to buy revolvers for the reliability of 'six for sure,' and full-size 2011s so you can blast off 20 rounds of 9mm on a 1911 trigger pull, plus have both MRDS sights for the speed and iron sights for the reliability, and also a 10mm and .45 ACP and a .380 ACP back-up gun.

That way when you start feeling insecure about your current concealed-carry or home-defense gun, you can just swap guns and holsters for the day so you can feel better immediately rather than polling the internet to see how many people agree with your current choice.

 

[dogtown tom]

So, you mean to tell the audience you were not issued a hand-held minigun to shoot between 3 to 6K rounds a minute?
Someone wrote to you that your 32 years in the military are not relevant to your post. What do you have to say to that?
I am not instigating, just being sarcastic and smiling every time I hear/read the catch phrase "Thank you for your service". Yeah, I am a cynical SOB.

Thats not what I wrote fella.
Again, I'll type more slowly........Thank you for your service, but what did you do in those 32 years? If it wasn't directly related to handguns or instruction in CQB why mention it?
I didn't say that his 32 years in the military were not relevant. I asked "what did you do in those 32 years?"
His answer determines whether it was relevant.

As far as "Thank you for your service"....if you don't appreciate gratitude, keep your mouth shut.

 

[Charlie98]

Yeah, I am a cynical SOB.

...and a troll.

Thanking someone for their contribution to the security of our nation, and questioning something someone posts are two completely separate things...

 

[Tinker-S]

...and a troll.

Thanking someone for their contribution to the security of our nation, and questioning something someone posts are two completely separate things...

I am sorry if I stroke a cord with my post. It was supposed to be in response to another post.

 

[Tinker-S]

Thats not what I wrote fella.
Again, I'll type more slowly........Thank you for your service, but what did you do in those 32 years? If it wasn't directly related to handguns or instruction in CQB why mention it?
I didn't say that his 32 years in the military were not relevant. I asked "what did you do in those 32 years?"
His answer determines whether it was relevant.

As far as "Thank you for your service"....if you don't appreciate gratitude, keep your mouth shut.

Thank you, Sir. May I have another?
It was not supposed to challenge your post, just that some people with poor understanding of the language would see it different.