With guns like the Dagger and BRG9, why pay more for FN, Glock, Walther, H&K, etc?

[RetiredUSNChief]

Be careful about your assumptions on how many rounds law enforcement organizations may put through a pistol with their officers.

Here's what I found about Georgia's standards (chosen at random, because Georgia was the top of the list when I searched "law enforcement firearms proficiency standards"). Below are the requirements, without going into the actual course of fire (which is not important for this, since it's only the amount of ammo required for qualification).

Pistol qualification requires only 30 rounds. Target is SQT A-1. Scoring is 10 (inside the 10 ring), 8 (outside the 10 ring), and 0 (outside the silhouette). Minimum qualifying score of 240 out of a possible 300.

The alternate course of fire still only requires 30 rounds. Same target, same qualifying score requirements. The only difference between this and the other pistol qualification requirements is how the course of fire is set up.

These training requirements are annual. More rounds may be shot if required in order to achieve a passing score.

According to one article I read, most police departments only train about two times a year. That same article said the IACP suggested firearms training should be held three times a year.

The fact is that shooting is not cheap, whether it's your own money or a police agency's budget. And with all the other things people (and law enforcement officers are people, too) have taking up their valuable time, many give up shooting time in favor of time for other activities they also consider important.

So, unless an officer is in a job which routinely involves shooting his issued firearm (training, competition, etc.), then the reality is the average LEO carry weapon isn't likely to see all that many rounds pass through its barrel each year.

Now, there is some merit to looking at an organization as a whole which may be issued several hundred sidearms and seeing how they perform this way. But honestly, we don't see much in terms of actual statistics which mean anything to us. How many here know of any way to get the firearms statistics for an entire police department to see how many firearms they have, the makes/models, types of ammunition put through them, amount of ammunition run through each, problems/repair issues, etc.? At best, all I ever see is some article somewhere which says such-and-such a police department switched to a particular firearm, or maybe they switched AWAY from a particular firearm for some reason with no statistical details as to why.


Galefi.org - Current Georgia Qualification Courses

Georgia Peace Officer Standards and Training Council (gapost.org)

Police firearms training: How often should you be shooting? | PoliceOne.com (police1.com)

 

[Charlie98]

Someone wrote to you that your 32 years in the military are not relevant to your post. What do you have to say to that?
I am not instigating, just being sarcastic and smiling every time I hear/read the catch phrase "Thank you for your service". Yeah, I am a cynical SOB.

I am sorry if I stroke a cord with my post. It was supposed to be in response to another post.

I know who you were responding to.

On one hand, you say you are not 'instigating,' yet you stir the pot with your 'what do you have to say to that?' comment.

 

[bdickens]

Same reason I bought a Stihl weed eater and chainsaw....

 

[JeeperCreeper]

As a collector of budget wares, I love the budget options.

But there is a lot of mental gymnastics on both sides of the fence. Confidence vs value vs history.

I will say one thing, I was told: "your salary is not necessarily the work you do, but how worthy/unworthy you are to replace".

I think this convo might fall into the above category...

 

[d2wing]

I wouldn't be interested in a gun made by PSA myself. I'd pay more for a trusted brand. I have been burned by them before. Besides they buy good companies and put them out of business.

 

[jdc1244]

I was just bringing up a discussion that I think the lesser expensive firearms have gotten to a point that the more expensive ones aren't truly needed.

That’s not the case with revolvers, in my personal experience and opinion.

My Smiths and Colts are clearly a significant cut above my less expensive revolvers, enough to justify the extra cost.

 

[dogtown tom]

... Besides they buy good companies and put them out of business.

Like who?

 

[DustyGmt]

Reliability, reliability, reliability.
When a large law enforcement agency adopts a particular handgun, their officers will put more rounds through it than your typical consumer and expose any faults that handgun has.
Similiarly, both FBI and military have exhaustive testing procedures that expose reliability issues. Not all manufacturers choose to submit pistols for those tests.

When an LE agency adopts the Dagger it will be interesting to see how they come out.


Shooting doesn't tell you how often Brand X is returned to the manufacturer.



Hi Point owners believe anything over $200 is absurd.

A $539 Glock 17 has a well deserved reputation over the last four decades.
The Dagger was announced at SHOT in 2020, in production for less than two years.
The BRG9 has been out less than a year.

Get back to me in ten years.

What he said. ^^^

If you think around $500 for a quality defensive sidearm is absurd, have right at it with guns that have had mere months give or take on the market and take your chances. We are talking about guns with decades long track records for success vs guns that have a real long ways to go to proving themselves.

I would buy and possibly carry a dagger, and if I was financially restricted to have to choose a $250 gun over one that was proven on the streets and battlefield for decades I would, and would "probably" not be consequenced for it since the statistics are way agaisnt a gunfight to begin with, even less so that should a gunfight occur the gun wouldnt do what it was designed to do, but saying paying $500 give or take for a proven life saving tool that you can count on is absurd, is actually kind of absurd.

My wife can come home with a few armloads of groceries for $500+/- these days....

 

[CapnMac]

3-5000 rounds is a standard no one ever gets the time or expense to try in real life.

The march of time can be inexorable. I have over 5K rounds in 6-7 different, currently, personally-owned firearms in the safe right now.
Probably near a half-dozen of the ones no longer in the safe dues to 2008-2012.

from major corporations though. not an LGS deciding to get in the game.

Armscor, TISAS, et al, are not mere LGS trying to "get into the game." PSA, Brownells, SARCO, are all about a similar size--you need a roughly similar scale to get into national production. It's not an easy jump from subcontractor to full-on manufacturer. Now, if Bud's started their own line of shooters, well, then, maybe.

Besides they buy good companies and put them out of business.

SO, like Cerebus or Vista perhaps?

 

[dogtown tom]

Your examples are from major corporations though. not an LGS deciding to get in the game.

What LGS is manufacturing handguns?

 

[tarosean]

What LGS is manufacturing handguns?

PSA was a LGS before they tried making stuff. I know zip about the other company named though

 

[mljdeckard]

Thank you for your service, but what did you do in those 32 years? If it wasn't directly related to handguns or instruction in CQB why mention it?
A police officer that says "I was a cop for 20 years" doesn't mean he was a patrol officer or SWAT the entire time.

This guy thinks his 25 years as a Marine officer makes him an expert on AR's: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/m...ny-defending-californias-assault-weapons-ban/
Every Marine should be embarrassed by this clown.

It was.

 

[dogtown tom]

PSA was a LGS before they tried making stuff. I know zip about the other company named though

WAS being the operative word. They certainly haven't been just an "LGS deciding to get in the game " for over a decade.

 

[Blkhrt13]

I would also like to add to this peeing contest a thought. Many glock factory parts are interchangeable with the dagger. It’s made pretty Close to the same tolerances. But there is a few things I have heard such as grip angle being slightly different and they have a hinged trigger more like a smith and Wesson m&p. Which some folks may find these few changes and improvement over glock perfection. Just saying.

 

[jstert]

my one-gun for 25 years living in a changing series of anti-gun locales was a barely-used, pawn-shop, $200, taurus m85 snubbie. it was all that i could afford at that moment to protect myself and family. i was unable to purchase anything more, because of my locales, for the following 25 years. i added $25 pachmayr grips, a couple of $10 speedloaders, a fairly constant stash of 100 rounds of plain-jane, 158gr, 38sp ball, “target” ammo. i sometimes went several years without practice as a victim of my career’s circumstances. the m85 worked great and i felt protected well enough. indeed some folks need more, but i suspect that 90% of ordinary, civilians would feel mostly the same. i certainly have more now due to my retirement circumstances but my humble m85 is never going away.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

my one-gun for 25 years living in a changing series of anti-gun locales was a barely-used, pawn-shop, $200, taurus m85 snubbie. it was all that i could afford at that moment to protect myself and family. i was unable to purchase anything more, because of my locales, for the following 25 years. i added $25 pachmayr grips, a couple of $10 speedloaders, a fairly constant stash of 100 rounds of plain-jane, 158gr, 38sp ball, “target” ammo. i sometimes went several years without practice as a victim of my career’s circumstances. the m85 worked great and i felt protected well enough. indeed some folks need more, but i suspect that 90% of ordinary, civilians would feel mostly the same. i certainly have more now due to my retirement circumstances but my humble m85 is never going away.

I think your story really shows a point others have made.

Regardless of opinion, some people need the cheapest options so matter if it's their top choice.

I have a few daggers (from $200-350 total cost on per), and am considering the Turkish XD clone import as well.

Are they my first choice? No, I have my CZ and Glock for that. But would I trust my life to them? Yes.

 

[d2wing]

Fortunately we have choices. Responses indicate that some prefer the more expensive quality brands, some like to buy knock-offs and for casual purposes they don't feel they are missing anything. I don't see a problem. I do believe that some name brands are superior, but I have bought stuff because it's cheap as well. Sometimes I regret it but not always. Pride of ownership and confidence in a product is worth something. But not everyone can afford an H&K. How does everyone feel about when the government banned guns made with cheap metal? I am not sure I ever understood that.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

3-5000 is excessive for any carry gun, for anyone.

Really
I've got that through several carry guns. When one shoots around 5-7k rounds a year that's a pretty easy number to arrive.

 

[tarosean]

My wife can come home with a few armloads of groceries for $500+/- these days..

Bout had a heartattack when the register looked more like a slot machine going. Resulting in a record amount spent on groceries the other day.

 

[Shanvanvocht]

Bout had a heartattack when the register looked more like a slot machine going

I feel your pain, but that is precisely why there is a market for low priced firearms. Many folks are spending so much for rent, groceries, utilities, et al, that they don't have 5 or 6 or 7 hundred to spend on a gun; BUT they still feel the need for one.

 

[Tallball]

At one point in time, Ruger single action revolvers were just cheaper semi-copies of a Colt.

 

[Autodidactic]

With the advent of the PSA Dagger and Buffalo Cartridge Works BRG9, why spend $500 - $650 on a more expensive gun.

I've shot enough polymer framed striker fired guns in my time to know that the differences between all the brands aren't that much.

I saw that an FN 509 is $625, a Glock 17 is $539, a Walther PDP is $649, a VP9 is $749.

Quite frankly some of these prices are absurd. I know that maybe the greatly overpriced poly strikers have a few more refinements, but their prices are ridiculous.

I own a VP9 and a Glock 19X, they are good guns, but I personally don't think they are a whole lot better than the Dagger and BRG9 Elite, certainly not that I paid almost 3X for them as the lesser expensive alternatives.

I can maybe agree with getting a Glock as the aftermarket is the best and you can pretty much get any part you need.

At least one thing, I can see little reason to buy a Hi-Point over Dagger or BRG9.

Yes, just like any product, a certain amount is branding, history, and marketing. Smith and Wesson has a 170 year history and like many brands, is iconic.

There is a certain reliability and durability factor though that Glock and Smith have for many models, which have been proven over some decades. Many newer brands or models either haven't had time to prove that, which matters, or brands such as Taurus had counter-evidence to reliability in the past, which they now need to try to overcome.

I will say this though, in today's age a reliable, safe product that will last decades for self defense, hunting, or police/military work isn't overpriced at $5-600 (Glocks and Smith autos). That's not cheap, but the value is there. Just like, you can't get a decent computer new for under about the same amount of money from a name brand.

 

[herrwalther]

I like my Dagger. But it doesn't outshine my Walther Q4. I just happen to carry the Dagger more because, in the event I use it, I will lose it. And it is easier to replace a $300 Dagger than a $1000 PPQ (with optic etc). When my finances get better I will be getting more PPQs instead of Daggers.

 

[JR24]

3-5000 rounds is a standard no one ever gets the time or expense to try in real life.

Used to do that most summers until the ammo crunch, now I’m about half that. Use my carry gun or a range copy for most of my shooting.

If you are saying that someone needs to counter-test a new to them gun with 3-5000 rounds, most of them are going to break the gun.

You’re saying 3-5k will break most carry guns? Not quality guns.

 

[mljdeckard]

I'm not saying no one ever does it. (I've done it.) I'm saying it's not necessary to prove reliability.