Wollff ammo? whats the consensus?

[Stainless Steel]

During the same course, someone
else ran out of ammo and bought some Wolf to
finish the last day of the class. She
couldn't fire more than one or two rounds
without a stoppage.

"There's three kinds of people. Them that
learn by readin'... Them that learn by
watchin' and doin'...and then there's them
that's gotta piss on the electric fence for
themselves."

-Will Rogers-

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Stainless Steel: nice job seizing upon the part of 444's post that stresses that each firearm is a law unto itself, while completely ignoring the other parts about wolf ammo not being horrible devil ammo, while contributing nothing new to the conversation.



I'm going to go out and buy 400-500 rounds of wolf in .45 ACP and shoot it in my 1911. if it has an ammunition related choke, breaks an extractor, my horses are stolen or my house burned i'll pony up the price of three boxes of remington golden saber.

 

[Ky Larry]

Last weekend a couple of pals and I decided to do a completely unscientific test of Wolf ammo. We bought 2 cases of Wolf ammo(2000 rounds) and shot it up. The pistols used were a CZ 75 BD, a Hi-Power, and a Beretta 92. All 2000 rounds were fired without a single problem. Accuracy was fair but none of us can be cosidered expert marksmen. The pistols were no dirtier or harder to clean than with other ammo. I don't know if we proved anything but we had a good time.I'll use Wolf for fun and Hydra-Shoks for social work.

 

[cordex]

Funny how I have never seen a single similar
thread about any other ammunition manufacturer
(except for A-merc). Hhhhmmmmm... Could it be
that people aren't having problems with the
other manufactures?

Could be ...
But ... now hold on here ... what about the threads I see from time to time about squib loads with big, commercial manufacturers like Remington, Winchester and Federal? I've heard tell of reversed primers, warped cases, blown up guns ... all kinds of stuff. With reputable, factory ammo. Rare, but it happens. Seem to remember a thread on TFL bringing up a bunch of 'em. Most posters seemed content to send the box of ammo back and have it replaced.
So why the wild eyed fury on both sides of Wolf? *shrug* You got me.

When someone reports a
problem, there are always people who act like
religious zealots and get very emotional that
a problem was posted.

Aye, there be zealotry here ... not sure it's all where you think it is, though.

I'm very open minded about Wolf. If there are legitimate problems with it, I think they should be discussed. My problem is that whenever Wolf comes up, there's always the same kind of "Wolf baaaaad." rather then logical debate about real problems with it (dirty, odd smelling, smokey ... er ...).

As I said, I personally don't like the stuff in .45, and prefer other ammo in .223 but I've not seen it do any of the horrible things that some claim it does.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Oh no, not again.....

Here we go again....

Wolf Mythbusting

Myth #1 - Wolf ammo will wear out your extractor because of the steel case.

No. It won't. The cases are coated with laquer and it's this laquer, not the case itself, that comes into contact with your gun's innards. The laquer is nice and soft so there is little chance of the steel "wearing out" anything.

Myth #2 - Wolf ammo is dirty.

All ammo is dirty. Wolf does leave a lot of residue, but no more so than W231, Bulls Eye, or Unique. If you clean your guns regularly (and you do, right?) it is no worse than some other commercial ammunition.

Myth #3 - Wolf ammo will gum up your gun because the laquer will come off in the chamber.

Possible, but not likely. Unless you are one of those gun owners who subscribes to the "I don't clean it till it jams" theory of gun care it's unlikely that you will ever have a problem. On several occasions I've fired 500+ rounds of Wolf 9mm through my XD with no functional problems. You could see some laquer residue starting to build up, but a quick swipe with a patch soaked in Hoppes #9 wiped it right off.

Conclusion

Wolf ammo is not some mystery gun-destroyer. It's just another inexpensive brand of ammo that has gotten a bad rap due to a lot of misperception combined with a generous dose of misinformation, supposition, and uninformed hype. While it's true that guns with "tight" chamber dimensions tend to be finicky when it comes to Wolf ammo, most guns will digest it just fine.

Will it work in your gun? Well.. buy a couple of boxes and try it. If you don't have any problems, buy a boatload of it and blast away.

Brad

 

[Shweboner]

Man this wolf ammo discussion is getting as popular as the Glock v. XD or 9mm v. 45 ones.

I have never had any problems with wolf. in my ak, its never had one problem after 3000 rounds, only cleaned every 1k rounds.
SKS=no trouble
the same with:
Makarov
Tanfoglio .380
Marlin 25N, Ruger 10-22
Springfield XD, Hipoint carbine, Glock 17
Mossy 500, Rem. 870 (12)
Mosin-Nagant
and probably a few more I cant recall right now......

If you dont like the laquer, try the Silver Bear stuff, its basically wolf (same price too) but with a Zinc plated Case and no laquer. I have yet to have any problems with that so far (7.62x39 only) but it comes in all the same calibers as Wolf does.
If it came down to it, I would trust my life to the stuff in any of my guns.

~Brian

 

[1911Tuner]

Wolf...

Besides the laquer getting soft when the gun gets hot, the
other thing that I've noticed about Wolf is the variance in
bullet diameter. Lot to lot variation can run as high as
.0015 inch...This can make a real difference in some guns,
all the way to failing to return to battery and having the
bullet pull out of the case and stay in the chamber leade
when you finally muscle the slide open.

So...Caveat Emptor

Tuner

 

[Stainless Steel]

I don't understand why people get so
hysterical about Wolf ammunition when someone
reports a problem. This is really puzzling to
me as an engineer.

This is a subject that has been addressed so
many times on the internet that there is a
large database of reported problems. Ignore
the obvious one liners and the parroting.
There are plenty of valid personal
experiences posted on the many forums out
there.

Referring to the posts from people reporting
their personal experience, the fact is that
there are more problems reported about Wolf
ammunition than all of the other brands
combined. At the same time, their market
share is very small compared to all of the
other brands combined. The hysterical zealots
have failed to address this STATISTICAL fact.

For those of you who are wondering if it is
safe to buy and shoot Wolf ammunition: The
STATISTICAL fact is, Wolf is the most
dangerous and unreliable ammunition out
there. THEY ARE WAY BEHIND THE INDUSTRY
STANDARD IN QUALITY AND SAFETY.

The scientific community demands more than: I
haven't had any problems, therefore there
isn't a problem! Is this the best that you can
do? The scientific community laughs at such
an argument. Your position is indefensible.
The statistics have proven you wrong! People
who defend Wolf have a real credibility
problem here.

The fact that you haven't had a problem is
STATISTICALLY meaningless! It is the high
percentage of people who have reported
problems compared to all other brands that is
STATISTICALLY relevant.

Again, what other argument do you have other
than, I haven't had any problems, therefore
there isn't a problem!

Suggest you take some engineering and
STATISTICAL classes.

The following is just the tip of the iceberg
of posts reporting problems with Wolf
ammunition.

Stainless.

Originally posted by hipowr

I presume you mean the Wolf. The stuff is
generally dirty, kinda hot, and sometimes on
the larger side. The only factory squib I've
ever seen in person was with Wolf ammo. It
lodged a slug right in the throat of a brand
new HK USP 40 compact. I generally don't
recommend it.

later, AJ

Originally posted by llahsram4

I can shoot Wolf .223 in my mini-14 all
day, no problem. But it absolutely will not
feed through my Springfield Ultra Compact.
One shot and done.

Originally posted by Archer

My shooting partner at Gunsite was a
county constable whose county issued him a
case of Wolf for the class.

He shot it with a previously reliable
Springfield 1911 Loaded model- not a
particularly tight pistol.

Suffice it to say, he got more practice on
malfunction clearances than any other student
there that week.

He had much better results later in the week
with PMC from the pro shop.

Originally posted by Grey

The indoor range I went to yesterday does
not allow Wolf. They said they had a 11/2
hour hang fire at one of ther other ranges,
and some case separation. Bummer because I
bought 500 rds of wolf and wanted to test it
myself.

Originally posted by Preacher

I watched a guy with a tuned a ported Gold
Cup have massive problems with Wolf today.

On 3 different stages (IPSC Match) the cases
were oversized, causing them to jam in the
breach and the extractor to snap back over
the rim, leaving the case in the chamber and
jamming a second round up into the first.

He was a great shot, had a good gun, but
chose shi**y ammo.

I had the same problem with one round of Wolf
in my Springfield and I can't even get them
to chamber in my Glock. After trying Wolf, I
switched to S&B for a while, then went to
custom hand loads. (Even cheaper than Wolf.)

Originally posted by Manevitch

Let's not forget the other problem with
Wolf ammo - it smells. No, I mean it REALLY
smells. The stuff reeks. The indoor range I
go to won't allow Wolf for that reason alone.

Originally posted by llahsram4

I've run .40 Wolf through my Kimber with
no problems at all so I bought 250 rounds of
.45 Wolf at our last gun show. It absolutely
will not feed through my Springfield Ultra
Compact. One shot and done (stove pipe). I've
tried a lot of other ammo in this gun and
this is the first time I've had problems. The
lacquer coating seems pretty thick on this
batch. I thought about trying to remove the
coating to see if it would feed. Any
suggestions?

Originally posted by Albert Shear


Just went to my favorite local gun shop to
by a Les Baer TRS and noticed a new large
sign "do not use Wolf ammo in Glocks". I
asked and the clerk said they returned 4
Glocks for customers that KB'd with Wolf.

Originally posted by mikescooling


Glock puts wolf only wolf on the do not
use list.

Originally posted by Pluskat

200 rds of Wolf pounded the edge of my
ejector into a nub on my Springfield mil-
spec, so....S&B in the 1911, Wolf in the AK.

Originally posted by usp45acp

I had 4 boxes of wolf ammo and, at the
request of Wolf ammo, returned all of the
empties and two half boxes to them for a full
refund. I had split cases, FTE, and FTF.
this was all 45ACP in a HK USP. I did find
that if I do not heat the gun up, IE let it
cool between mags, I do not get the FTE but
I had 3 Split cases. My USP had less than
500 rnds thru it before I tried this crap
with no problems. I checked the chamber and
it is right for a 45ACP so the problem lies
in the steel case ammo.

I have only heard of one other problem and
that was rapid firing a colt ar-15 at the
local range. One round was not loaded
properly. It went halfway down the barrel
and a couple more followed it. not a
pleasant surprise. I will stick to the CCI
Blazers and my reloads just to be safe. and
to protect my valuable collection.

Originally posted by bountyhunter


DCMorris: I have never lectured anybody
on anything, and BTW my degrees are in
Mechanical Engineering, Electrical
Engineering and Education.

The internet provides all readers access to a
huge number of data points, and one thing I
KNOW with absolute certainty is that many
people who use Wolf ammo will have a problem.
That is based on not just reports of problems
but the fact that most US guns are not
designed to cycle steel case ammo.

The fact that Olympic Arms (a maker of AR-15
rifles) has specifically listed Wolf ammo BY
NAME on their home page along with a warning
that using it voids the warranty on their
guns indicates to me there is a serious
problem using this ammo in some guns.

Originally posted by REDDAWN

My wife bought me two cases of Wolf 223
for Christmas. I shot less than 20 rounds,
And gave the rest away. I had to use a
cleaning rod to pop the cases out of the gun.
NO MORE WOLF

Originally posted by slapshot2

My cousin had some Wolf 45 that in EAA
Witness you had to pull the trigger twice to
get some the rounds to go off.

Originally posted by phil_a_steen


Wolf is bad beyond all word. Four hours
to clean the red lacquer out of my
Paraordinance. Never again.

 

[Minute_Of_Torso]

STAND BACK, BOYS, HE'S GOT A SLIDERULE!!!!


You fail to convince me, Stainless, and I am also an engineer. Unverifiable forum posts from the internet do little to override my own personal, objective, first-hand experience with Wolf. (If I believed everything I read I'd sell my Glocks because they blow up, my 1911's because they're junk out of the box, and my Rugers because an inexpensive gun can't be worth a darn). To base your final conclusion that Wolf is the most dangerous ammunition on the market is, well, pretty weak based upon nameless, faceless witnesses that have unverifiable stories. As you said yourself, the scientific community demands more . . . I would add that it demands more than anecdotal evidence.

Before you build up a straw man and then tear it down:

1. IMHO, is Wolf the best ammo on the market? No.
2. Do I use Wolf exclusively? No.
3. Have I shot more Wolf than any other brand? No.
4. Would I recommend it for every conceivable firearm or every conceivable situation? No.
5. Would I recommend it to be TRIED? Yes.
6. Do I completely trust Russian manufacturing and QA processes? No.


IF you provide us here at this forum with objective testing results from verifiable sources, then it would lend great weight to your argument. As an engineer you should understand that first and foremost you must provide the calculations to prove your conclusions are correct. The answer to, "Will that bridge design hold all the necessary loading?" is not, "Well this guy on the internet said he had a bridge just like it and it fell down."

 

[gudel]

i'll be getting a .40S&W Wolf to be tested on my brand spankin new XD40. i think i will try it out and see what happens. their prices are somewhat lower, if it works with my guns, i'll use it exclusively.

 

[Stainless Steel]

Minute_Of_Torso:

As an engineer, you are held to a higher
standard and MUST explain why there are more
problem posts from the 'average user' about
Wolf than all other brands combined.

The lack of complaints to all other brands
combined is conspicuous by its absence!

You as an engineer MUST submit to your
engineering piers why you do not feel this is
a problem. Please submit this for pier
review. Your colleagues are waiting.

As an engineer you know that the burden is
not on me to explain why some people are not
having problems. The burden is on you to
explain this statistical phenomenon.

Stainless.

 

[Minute_Of_Torso]

Please understand that in any and all of this reply, I mean no disrespect whatsoever.

Quote:
As an engineer, you are held to a higher
standard and MUST explain why there are more
problem posts from the 'average user' about
Wolf than all other brands combined.

Reply:
Your education level means very little when it comes to the vast majority of the issues discussed on this forum. Besides, you and I both know that engineers are a dime a dozen and most of them couldn't "think" their way out of a paper bag. As a matter of fact, being a veteran, some of the least educated people I've ever met deserve my unreserved awe and respect because of their experience. Furthermore, the standards I'm held to have very little to do with internet forums. AND you never did provide a response as to the veracity of the "problem posts." What other factors affected performance? Do they maintain their firearms properly? Etc. Etc. Too many variables in the equation.


Quote:
You as an engineer MUST submit to your
engineering piers why you do not feel this is
a problem. Please submit this for pier
review. Your colleagues are waiting.


Reply:
I don't owe anybody anything. Unless you have much greater than a four-year degree and almost two-decades of engineering experience you're not my peer (once again, no disrespect, just fact). You may have all these things and more, I don't know because I don't know you . . . the point is it's not my responsibility to convince you that Wolf ammunition is the greatest there is. It's your responsibility to convince me that it's the most dangerous ammunition on the market.


Quote:
As an engineer you know that the burden is
not on me to explain why some people are not
having problems. The burden is on you to
explain this statistical phenomenon.

Reply:
You made the unqualified statement that Wolf is the most dangerous ammunition on the market. The burden of proof lies upon you in that you made a very general, blanket statement. In my posts I merely said that in my experience Wolf has performed exceedingly well, I NEVER made any universal statements concerning the product.

Also, a few unqualified forum posts does not make a "statistical phenomenon." A statistical phenomenon would be a statement like, "Wolf is dangerous because 87% of Wolf users have had malfunctions and damage to their firearm," and then show the evidence.

Conclusion:
Is Wolf bad? I dunno. Is Wolf good? I dunno. Have I had good experiences with Wolf? Uh-huh. Has everybody? Huh-uh. Does this make Wolf the most dangerous ammunition on the market? Nope.

I also don't want to hijack this discussion or discuss this ad infinitum.

 

[Stainless Steel]

Minute_Of_Torso:

No offence taken.

As one engineer to the other, I guess this is
a Mexican standoff. You say the burden of
proof is on me and I say the burden of proof
is on you.

Fine, I can live with that even if I do
misspell peer. My point is that this thread
is one of MANY threads about Wolf ammunition.
There are no comparable threads like this
about Winchester, Sellier & Bellot, Blazer,
Remington, Federal, Fiocchi, Olympic, Speer,
Armscor, etc, etc.

Something is going on with Wolf ammunition to
cause all of the problem posts and David S
who started this thread needs to know this.

Wolf is marketing .45acp cartridges which is
a WESTERN cartridge using eastern technology.
If Wolf wants to sell ammunition for WESTERN
made guns there is evidence that they need to
make some engineering changes. There is also
evidence that they need to add STATISTICAL
process controls to improve their quality.

I am still amazed at how emotional people get
about Wolf ammunition. Why does a problem
post about Wolf create such hysteria? Why do
the Wolf proponents go to such lengths to
debunk these posts from the 'average users'?
Very strange.

Again, I have never heard any other argument
from the Wolf proponents other than, I
haven't had any problems, therefore there
isn't a problem.

To those of you reading this post trying to
decide whether to buy Wolf ammunition and you
still decide to do so, I recommend that you
become intimately familiar on how to
recognize and what to do when you get a squib
load. This is a must to keep from getting
hurt.

Stainless.

 

[goon]

I know it works just fine in my Mosin-Nagants and in my AK.
They also make pretty good .22 ammo.
I have heard about people having trouble with Wolf in their handguns. I would avoid it there and buy that cheap Winchester stuff or order some S&B.
In fact, I do.

 

[444]

"I am still amazed at how emotional people get
about Wolf ammunition. Why does a problem
post about Wolf create such hysteria? Why do
the Wolf proponents go to such lengths to
debunk these posts from the 'average users'?
Very strange."

I don't really find it strange at all. Afterall, when I use it and it works great, I have a hard time believing that it is junk because someone I don't know on the internet tells me it is. I have heard and read a lot of things that I questioned, but in this case I have proved it to myself. And as I have mentioned, I have proven it to myself thousands of times. I know my watch keeps good time. I have verified that many times. Just because someone on the internet tells me it is junk doesn't make it so.

I will tell you one reason why I persist in telling of my success with Wolf ammo. When I bought one of my first AR15s, I couldn't wait to shoot it, but I didn't currently have any loaded .223 ammo. My local dealer only had Wolf ammo in stock. I had heard bad things about Wolf ammo from threads just like this, so I was leary of it. But, I decided to throw caution to the wind and buy a couple boxes of it. It was very cheap, like $3 a box or something. I figured that if it didn't run, I would toss it. I had a great time breaking in the new AR. I zeroed it, did some off hand shooting of groups on paper, plinked etc. I never gave the ammo any thought because I was too busy being thrilled with my new rifle. Before long, I realized I was out of ammo and also realized that I had not scouted out a source for another brand of ammo. But it occured to me that I had not had any problems with the ammo I was shooting, so I bought more. No problem. So I bought a case of it. It ran fine. I was having so much fun with my AR that I decided to take a carbine class at Gunsite. I didn't want to look like an idiot, so I started practicing a lot. And I did it with Wolf ammo. I fired several cases to get myself up to speed; no problems. The moral to the story is this. I couldn't have afforded to practice like this with any other brand of ammo that my dealer quoted me prices on out of his wholesale catalog. Practice is good. More practice is better. So, I hate to see someone else who doesn't have money to burn not be able to shoot as much as they could if the cost of ammo was less. And, I would really hate to see that happen if it was because of internet rumor. Since that class I bought a few more cases, and it all worked great. So, when I decided to take another carbine class at a different school, I thought about buying another brand of ammo at a much greater price since I didn't want any problems at the class caused by inferior equipment. But, I had nothing but great success with Wolf, so I shot the whole course with Wolf and again no problem. This is certainly in sharp contrast to the naysayers and I feel this should be brought to the attention of those who don't have an opinion one way or the other.

"Why do the Wolf proponents go to such lengths to
debunk these posts from the 'average users'? "

I was wondering the same thing about you.

My dad worked as an engineer for 46 years and he doesn't know Wolf ammo from gold bars.

 

[Ky Larry]

Wolf Ammo

I never said Wolf ammo doesn't cause problems for any shooter with any gun.All I said was my friends and I had no problems with 2 cases of Wolf 9mm. I was simply reporting on my own experience. Hopefully, the people who read this post will understand that these forums are nothing more than the talk they would hear in any gunshop and take it all with a grain of salt.
Use your own judgement and think for yourself.

Ky Larry

P.S. Engineering degrees are fine but they don't always equate to common sense. Last week I watched our plant engineer (Masters in Chemical Engineering from Ohio State) put a sandwich wrapped in aluminun foil in the microwave at work. He could't undestand where all the sparks and smoke came from.

 

[Stainless Steel]

444

For awhile, I will refrain from responding
until the Wolf propenents post something NEW,
other than the same old tired: I haven't had
any problems, therefore there isn't a
problem.

Stainless.

 

[Stainless Steel]

Originally posted by Ky Larry


P.S. Engineering degrees are fine but they
don't always equate to common sense. Last
week I watched our plant engineer (Masters in
Chemical Engineering from Ohio State) put a
sandwich wrapped in aluminun foil in the
microwave at work. He couldn't understand
where all the sparks and smoke came from.

It obviously requires more than common sense
to be the plant engineer or he wouldn't be on
the payroll making more money than just about
everyone else.

It will also require more than common cense
to fix Wolf's quality problems. It will
require a degreed engineer using tools like
statistical process control. Obviously common
cense has not worked for Wolf. Time to take
it to the next level for them.

Surely you won't argue that there isn't room
for improvement here!

Stainless.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Well, i haven't had any problems so there isn't a problem.

I fail to see why you seem to think me mad for buying ammo that causes me no problems.

 

[LFW]

I love cheap practice ammo because I don't reload. Here's my experience with Wolf: Will not work in any of my SIGs (.45 or 9mm). Very difficult ejection from my S&W 940 and 625 revolvers. The Wolf .22 match target round will not cycle my S&W M41 unless I go to a lighter recoil spring. The .22 also gives me ejection problems with my S&W M18 and M17. The Wolf 9mm would also not work in a HK compact I used to have. It DOES work just fine in my Browning High Power.

When this stuff first hit the market I joyfully bought 500 rounds of .45 and 500 rounds of 9mm. Took me a loooong time to shoot it up.--Leigh

 

[Ky Larry]

Stainless,I mean no disrespect to no one, especially over something as trivial as a posting on a forum. I agree there is room for improvement in all thing and all people, especially me. All I'm saying is use your own observations and make your own conclusions. Opinions are like...... well, you know the rest.

 

[cordex]

There are no comparable threads like this
about Winchester, Sellier & Bellot, Blazer,
Remington, Federal, Fiocchi, Olympic, Speer,
Armscor, etc, etc.

And if I found some, what exactly would that prove? Quick search on TFL:

Winchester problems:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=101889

CCI Blazer problems:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=99943
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89128

S&B takes some hits, as well as Winchester and CCI
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=95079

Different guns and shooters like different ammunition. Any manufacturer that produces millions if not billions of cartridges per year is bound to have foul-ups. Wolf is no exception. But then, neither are any of the others. Variables like hardness of primers, relative slickness of the jacket, shape, weight and exposed metal of bullet all can affect feeding, firing and extraction in different guns.

To those of you reading this post trying to
decide whether to buy Wolf ammunition and you
still decide to do so, I recommend that you
become intimately familiar on how to
recognize and what to do when you get a squib
load. This is a must to keep from getting
hurt.

I don't care who you are, what gun you're shooting or what ammo you're feeding it, this is a must. Wolf or no.

 

[gudel]

uhm... just shot 50rds of wolf today in .40S&W. all fed, fired, ejected just fine. accurate to boot too.

 

[Stainless Steel]

Without the right 'tools', some jobs just
can't be done. Statistics is a tool that the
scientific community uses to look at the big
picture. Simply a way of looking at the
forest without getting confused by the
individual trees.

While there are problems posted about other
brands, STATISTICALLY the number of people
who use Wolf ammunition report more problems
than all other brands combined.

Statistics is fun. Yes, statistics can be
abused just like any other tool.

If you watch for squib loads, I don't think
you will die using Wolf ammunition. In guns
made in the west there are reliability issues
more with Wolf than the other brands. Why is
this so hard for people to accept? To some
that makes it crap and that's what they post.

All I'm asking is for people to look at the
big picture. David S started this thread
asking "Wolf ammo? what's the consensus?"
Another way of asking, what is the big
picture.


Stainless.

 

[cordex]

While there are problems posted about other
brands, STATISTICALLY the number of people
who use Wolf ammunition report more problems
than all other brands combined.

Not to drag this out any longer than necessary, but may I see these statistics, sir? I don't really have a dog in this fight, but you keep talking in statistics while dealing in anecdotes. Peer review and all that, right?