Gunsby_Blazen
Member
maybe everyone should wear orange...
I dont know, is that a bad idea???
I dont know, is that a bad idea???
Woman fatally shot by boy hunting bear, Part II
- Thread starter FourTeeFive
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fast eddie
Member
Boy, this is a tough one. What can you say, accidents happen. The kid screwed up in the worst possible way and he has many, many years ahead to think about it. People are killed in hunting accidents every year and as far as I know the vast majority are killed by adults so what are you gonna do; make everyone bring a supervisor along? I disagree that sending the kid to prison is a good idea. This will be a lesson in every hunter ed class from here on out so if lives are saved as a result then some good will result.
FourTeeFive
Member
How is something considered an accident if it could have been avoided by following the four rules of handling a firearm?
86thecat
Member
In Washington State every bear hunter must not only decide that his target is a bear, but if it's a legal black or protected grizzly before firing. So unless the hunter identified a straight face profile, larger pointed ears and no shoulder hump on the hiker it's hard to rationalize this as an "accident".
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Okay: Drop the word "accident'". Replace with "Unintended but happened on account of brain-fade."
But that's what most "accidents" actually are...
But that's what most "accidents" actually are...
fast eddie
Member
Some of you gentlemen are focusing on a single word and missing my larger point. First of all I think the word accident is valid; here's the Merriam Webster definition of the word - 1a: an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b: lack of intention or necessity. 2 a: an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance. The kid did not plan or intend to kill a person. Be that as it may let me modify the statement from my previous post: What can you say, both accidents and mistakes (insert noun or verb of you choice) happen. My larger point is that if others learn from this tragedy and lives are saved as a result then this poor woman will not have died for nothing.
Take care.
Take care.
rantingredneck
Member
Yikes.
I have nephews that are 14 and 16. They've hunted a good bit. I still wouldn't turn them loose with rifles without an adult.
That being said, when I was that age I'd typically head for the woods on my own with a rifle so........
Maybe the parents/grandparents thought the kids were OK by themselves. Given the outcome I guess they were wrong.
Horrible tragedy. Violation of 2,3 and 4 as someone else already said.
I have nephews that are 14 and 16. They've hunted a good bit. I still wouldn't turn them loose with rifles without an adult.
That being said, when I was that age I'd typically head for the woods on my own with a rifle so........
Maybe the parents/grandparents thought the kids were OK by themselves. Given the outcome I guess they were wrong.
Horrible tragedy. Violation of 2,3 and 4 as someone else already said.
coyotehitman
member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2007
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- 558
I am all for closing the woods/restricting non hunting activities in certain areas during certain types of short term hunting seasons.
cjanak
Member
Hunting accidents occur at higher rates among kids than among adults. Not surprising, since scientists believe that the part of the brain critical for judgment and the suppression of impulses (the prefrontal cortex) takes at least 20 years to reach maturity. If that's true, then it is folly for us to expect your average kid to exercise adult-like judgment in a hunting situation.
The average kid is hopped-up on adrenaline when he/she thinks he sees that bear/deer/etc. and his/her ability to suppress the impulse to shoot is significantly weaker in comparison with your average adult. You can drill the kid on hunting rules all you want, but that doesn't mean they won't go out the window we the kid sets eyes on what he/she thinks is game. Many kids need you, an adult, whispering in their ear asking What do you see?, Is that a legal animal?, Are you sure of what's behind your target?, etc.
I'm not making excuses for kids, but rather I'm suggesting we need to be careful what kind of critical judgments we allow kids to make.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=383453
The average kid is hopped-up on adrenaline when he/she thinks he sees that bear/deer/etc. and his/her ability to suppress the impulse to shoot is significantly weaker in comparison with your average adult. You can drill the kid on hunting rules all you want, but that doesn't mean they won't go out the window we the kid sets eyes on what he/she thinks is game. Many kids need you, an adult, whispering in their ear asking What do you see?, Is that a legal animal?, Are you sure of what's behind your target?, etc.
I'm not making excuses for kids, but rather I'm suggesting we need to be careful what kind of critical judgments we allow kids to make.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=383453
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
It may be an "accident" in your world, but it resulted from negligence. Negligence often results in accidents.
-- SO --
The hiker's death was an accident. The shooting was negligence.
There is every possibility (especially with the youth of today) that the kid knew she wasn't a bear and did what he did because he was acutally hunting humans...
I don't know if I could possibly believe that it was an accident, unless there actually WAS a bear, he shot, missed the bear and hit someone 300 yards behind the bear that wasn't aware of either of them...
Doesn't make sense at all that he thought she was a bear. It does make sense that he was a sociopath that shot the lady made up a story and that is that.
Of course I am just speculating and have 0 proof, so it is just food for thought.
I don't know if I could possibly believe that it was an accident, unless there actually WAS a bear, he shot, missed the bear and hit someone 300 yards behind the bear that wasn't aware of either of them...
Doesn't make sense at all that he thought she was a bear. It does make sense that he was a sociopath that shot the lady made up a story and that is that.
Of course I am just speculating and have 0 proof, so it is just food for thought.
86thecat
Member
Quote-
"Okay: Drop the word "accident'". Replace with "Unintended but happened on account of brain-fade." "-End Quote
When dealing with firearms and risk to life and limb of others there is a higher level of accountability. Just as with firearms an "Accidental Discharge" is a gun malfunction but brain fade induced unintentional discharges are "Negligent Discharges".
If the driver of a vehicle doesn't see a car coming , pulls out and bumps a fender, that's an accident. If someone is driving through a residential area at 75mph, runs a red light, t-bones a mini van and kills someone, that's a crime which they will be prosecuted for.
The hunter in this tragedy broke all the rules of firearm safety, and quite a few laws. He was engaged in a mans activity, unsupervised with a deadly weapon and should accept a mans responsibility for his acts.
The proper term is "criminal negligence"
"Okay: Drop the word "accident'". Replace with "Unintended but happened on account of brain-fade." "-End Quote
When dealing with firearms and risk to life and limb of others there is a higher level of accountability. Just as with firearms an "Accidental Discharge" is a gun malfunction but brain fade induced unintentional discharges are "Negligent Discharges".
If the driver of a vehicle doesn't see a car coming , pulls out and bumps a fender, that's an accident. If someone is driving through a residential area at 75mph, runs a red light, t-bones a mini van and kills someone, that's a crime which they will be prosecuted for.
The hunter in this tragedy broke all the rules of firearm safety, and quite a few laws. He was engaged in a mans activity, unsupervised with a deadly weapon and should accept a mans responsibility for his acts.
The proper term is "criminal negligence"
MillCreek
Member
I have hiked on that very trail and been in that very spot where the shooting occurred. There is very little tree cover in that particular portion of the trail, which makes it all the more peculiar to me that the hiker was not recognized. Quite the tragedy for all concerned.
redneck2
Member
A number of years ago I talked to a guy in Michigan. He had been a deer hunter. He was sitting on a stump on public land. Saw another hunter walk around the corner, pull up his shotgun, and shoots the guy, grazing him pretty good on the side.
The "hunter" walks up as he's laying on the ground and says "man, I'm sorry...you looked like a deer" and started to walk off.
The guy I'm talking to pulled up his shotgun and says "if you walk off to leave me here, I'm gonna kill you". The "hunter" turns around and decides to help him.
This was before blaze orange. The guy was wearing the typical red and black plaid wool jacket.
I had one guy shooting at a rabbit with a .22. I was directly down range, and bullets were bouncing off the frozen ground right past my head. When I started yelling, he bitched me out for being in his way.
Saw another guy in hunting attire in a chain store while waiting in line. Asked if he got anything. He says "only got a couple of brush shots". I ask what brush shots are. He says "I heard something in the brush, so I shot"
After hunting a few years on public land, I figured that my life wasn't worth the hunting experience.
The "hunter" walks up as he's laying on the ground and says "man, I'm sorry...you looked like a deer" and started to walk off.
The guy I'm talking to pulled up his shotgun and says "if you walk off to leave me here, I'm gonna kill you". The "hunter" turns around and decides to help him.
This was before blaze orange. The guy was wearing the typical red and black plaid wool jacket.
I had one guy shooting at a rabbit with a .22. I was directly down range, and bullets were bouncing off the frozen ground right past my head. When I started yelling, he bitched me out for being in his way.
Saw another guy in hunting attire in a chain store while waiting in line. Asked if he got anything. He says "only got a couple of brush shots". I ask what brush shots are. He says "I heard something in the brush, so I shot"
After hunting a few years on public land, I figured that my life wasn't worth the hunting experience.
86thecat
Member
Redneck,
According to some on this site those were "accidents" and "sh** happens". As long as the shooters felt bad about it later then everything is just fine.
According to some on this site those were "accidents" and "sh** happens". As long as the shooters felt bad about it later then everything is just fine.
wyocarp
Member
As precious as this life seems, it isn't everything.
As high and mighty as some want to appear on here, if we were all punished as we deserved for every infraction, there would be no one left living.
As high and mighty as some want to appear on here, if we were all punished as we deserved for every infraction, there would be no one left living.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Sorta getting away from the subject at hand, and it's for sure that a bunch of contentiousness tends to shorten thread-life...
fast eddie
Member
Well, what happened was sh**, and it happened. Care to cite the post that said it was ok?
Duh.
I hope you fellows don't miss your target as often as you miss the point. OK, I give; accidents and negligence in the field never occurs, therefore no attempt should be made to use this tragedy as teaching opportunity.
FourTeeFive
Member
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Nobody missed the point that such incidents can and should be used for teaching, especially me. I posted the IHEA data. The point you seemed to have missed is that the shooting wasn't an accident. The hunter had a target, aimed, and made a clean kill. None of that was an accident at all.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2007
- Messages
- 13,146
See now that's the problem. That's too young to really retain anything. What about not being allowed to take the class until 6 months prior to being old enough to actually get a license?
9 yrs old - That's ridiculous. Of course he's not gonna take it seriously enough and remember enough.
How's about:
--Must be 13.5 to take the mandatory HS Educ. class (in person, full day or two days, with fairly rigorous testing),
--14 to hunt, but accompanied by an adult at age 14 and 15 (except squirrels and rabbits with rimfire/shotgun),
--retake a required short online refresher course at 15.5, with online test,
--then at 16 you're cut loose
--Add to that mix, post signs at trailheads which say that hikers are "strongly encouraged" to wear 500 c.i. of blaze orange during hunting seasons, with the hunting season dates shown on the sign (generally what the dates are). Of course, hunters themselves are *required* to have the blaze orange.
Good policy??? How would you tweak it?
cjanak
Member
My gut reaction is to increase the age to which minors must be accompanied by an adult for at least certain types of hunting. That being said, I know I should restrain myself from a knee-jerk reaction. It would be nice to have confidence that the data suggests higher age limits are in fact strongly associated with fewer accidents. I would expect them to be, but I can't say that I actually know they are.
justice4all
Member
I'm personally opposed to changing the law based on one tragedy. I knew better than this at 14, and other responsible young men and women should not have their hunting opportunities curtailed because of this person's crime.
86thecat
Member
Quote-
"In general, as codified in law a 14-year-old is not expected to bear the same responsibility for consequences as an adult. Further, there is the issue of intent, insofar as the penalty for a criminal act." -End Quote
If a 14 year old is not expected to bear the same responsibility as an adult, then they they need an adult (over 21) in immediate supervision while hunting. If they are granted adult rights to hunt alone, their actions need to be held to adult standards and penalties.
"In general, as codified in law a 14-year-old is not expected to bear the same responsibility for consequences as an adult. Further, there is the issue of intent, insofar as the penalty for a criminal act." -End Quote
If a 14 year old is not expected to bear the same responsibility as an adult, then they they need an adult (over 21) in immediate supervision while hunting. If they are granted adult rights to hunt alone, their actions need to be held to adult standards and penalties.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
No argument with that, 86.
Shifting emphasis in this deal: It seems to me this is more of a problem for public-land hunting than we see here in Texas. On our ranches, we don't have hikers during hunting season.
Another facet that I hadn't really thought of when we've had arguments over hunting from box-blind stands (as is common in Texas): It's safer for all concerned, which is an issue for those who don't have a rural background or who are inexperienced.
As a first look, then, I'd divvy the deal into two parts: For game animal hunting (deer, bear) with a centerfire rifle, adult supervision to age 16. Supervision not required for bird hunting or the long-established custom of a .22 rifle for rabbits and squirrels. Rabbit and squirrel hunters aren't gonna shoot a "bear".
Shifting emphasis in this deal: It seems to me this is more of a problem for public-land hunting than we see here in Texas. On our ranches, we don't have hikers during hunting season.
Another facet that I hadn't really thought of when we've had arguments over hunting from box-blind stands (as is common in Texas): It's safer for all concerned, which is an issue for those who don't have a rural background or who are inexperienced.
As a first look, then, I'd divvy the deal into two parts: For game animal hunting (deer, bear) with a centerfire rifle, adult supervision to age 16. Supervision not required for bird hunting or the long-established custom of a .22 rifle for rabbits and squirrels. Rabbit and squirrel hunters aren't gonna shoot a "bear".
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