Would a kel-tec sub 2000in 9 be an OK 400 yard gun?

[mrcpu]

I want to participate in an appleseed coming up, but I don't have a rifle yet, except for some bolt 22's. I have some milsurp coming, but was thinking something I'd more likely use for SD...

And I have a boatload of 9mm reloads to use up. Althoug I don't think I can use reloads at an appleseed shoot...

 

[Medusa]

9mm as a 400 yard gun? Umm, wouldn't say so, the 9 mm subguns are usually adequate (if even so) up to 100 yards, after that it get's out of hand. It's still suitable for CQB only. for 100+ yards you definitely need a rifle.

 

[Doggieman]

heck yeah, just point it up at a 45 degree angle.. you're shooting for ground squirrels right?

 

[Medusa]

You mean shooting the area targets? Steel (umm, copper jacketed lead, actually) rain?

I'd say it could be possible to shoot at 400 yards with somewhat accuracy, but real question is - does it really hurt the target, after all? Or makes it angry?

 

[SeNNebogen]

No way man I actually tried to find my manual because it has a ballistic chart with bullet drop table thingy. I can't find it, but if I remember correctly the max range is 150 yds.

At like 75 yds your 9mm has the same energy as a .380 and starts to drop rapidly off the chart after 125 yds.

 

[browningguy]

In my opinion, hitting anything at 400 yards would be pure guess work with a 9mm. I'm sure some of the trick shot specialists can do it, but for the rest of us the bullet drop would be too much to overcome. You'd be holding many feet over the target. At 100 yards with my Keltec I can get a group, and maybe at 150 I could hit a man sized target, but past that would require a bunch of luck.

According to the Keltec charts 115 gr. +P dead on at 100 is -23" at 200, and it doesn't get any better after that. I haven't been able to find any charts farther than 200 but I'd guess 6-10' drop at 400.

 

[MassMark]

However....

At an Appleseed, the ranges are not out to 400-yards, (not at least the ones I've seen), but replicate distance shooting through the use of targets. Most are placed from 25-100 yards and I believe the folks at the Appleseed would absolutely work with you - no bubbles no troubles. Take your Kel-Tec and offer it up for people to shoot. If they're anything like me, they will return the favor.

That being said, I have no experience with the Kel-Tec, (I want tone though in .40), but have placed accurate hits out to 200-yards with my IMI Model B Carbine. The 16" barrel really sends the 9mm on a blissful path. Haven't tried it beyond that and probably never will. Even with the SBR 10.5" barrel groups are tight at 100 and spread a lot at 200, but at that range man-sized hits are easy. Despite loss of velocity, I would not want to be on the receiving end no matter what the ballistic charts say....

Don't miss the Appleseed. Take your Kel-Tec. People who "know where it's at" will welcome you - no matter what gun you bring. If they don't, you're not at an Appleseed.....

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Let's see, you are looking at something like 260 inches of drop for a 115 gr roundnose ball ammo fired at 1200 fps. That is a lot.

I have found that with my Beretta Storm in 9mm, out to 100 yards and the gun is great. 200 and hitting a IDPA silhouette can be done on a consistent basis, but the pattern is very large. At 300 yards and using an ACOG with a 5.56 bullet drop reticle, the 600 yard crosshair was about right for 9mm at 300 yards. I could still hit the target about 50% of the time, but with really no control as to where the target would be hit. At 400 yards, I had about as good of a chance hitting targets to either side of my intended target as I did in hitting the intended target, but could only hit any target in the area about a quarter of the time.

I don't doubt folks could do better. This was just my experience one day in seeing how far I could push the Storm using a 3.5x ACOG with a donut reticle and drop scale, shooting with the gun rested on sandbags.

 

[3 gun]

400yds No way. Unless just hitting the ground counts as a hit. 200yds With good ammo you'll stay on an IDPA/USPSA target in good weather about 75% of the time. 75yd zero and hold on the head puts shots in the lower 1/3 of the target. 4"x6" steel at 100yds..boring. I have a S2k with a 4moa red dot. Great little carbine. Go to the shoot with a lot of ammo and a good zero, no closer than 75yds. Know your hold over/unders from 25 to 125yds and you'll be in great shape to learn. The most important thing is good ammo and mags and KNOW your zero. Well that and have fun

 

[Shipwreck]

U need to go buy a cheap bolt action gun in something more powerful. As everyone else said, I don't think that will cut it.

 

[thereisnospoon]

If you're going to the appleseed and it is only a 25 meter-that is NOT a known distance (really shooting out to 400 meters) then the .22 would actually be better.

I have hosted a few Appleseeds in B'Ham and A LOT of folks shoot .22s because its what they have or because of economics. The Kel-Tec is a fun gun but the trigger and sights are meant for what it is.

You'll get more out of it if you take the .22 , IMHO, especially if it has some type of adjustable sight. Several guys at our last Aplleseed had the "Tech Sight" that is available on their 22 and it allowed them to learn about sight adjustment.

Even if you don't have the tech sight, you'll still get more out of a 25 meter Appleseed with the .22. That being said, if you show up with the Kel-Tec, the Red Hats will help you get the best out of it you possibly can.

You'll never meet a better group of men and woman...

 

[mrcpu]

ok, ok,.... I'll skip the kel-tec. They sold the 9mm out from under me anyway, and so the only choice left is the .40, and I don't have boxes and boxes of ammo in .40... Like I do in 9.

I b ought an SKS and a M44, but they just seem like overkill for an appleseed, plus frankly, I think the other people would probably not enjoy it very much once the novelty wore off...

I have an old marlin semi in .22 with a little scope on it, mebbe I'll just use it
for now. I hate tube-fed, but we'll see what the easter bunny brings.

 

[Oohrah]

You need to get a rifle!:banghead:

 

[mkh100]

You will be at a slight disadvantage with a tube fed rifle.....but I have seen them used effectively at Appleseeds. Some (maybe 25%) of the instruction stresses quick mag changes......having to come out of position to drop cartridges down the tube makes for a lot of "busy" work. You can do it but makes it harder to concentrate on the other stuff.

THe SKS will keep up with the rate of fire OK (get a few stripper clips), but you will likely struggle with it accuracy wise. An AK/SKS sight tool is a real handy thing to have, though an instructor or fellow student is likely to have one if you dont. Tech-sights on the SKS would enhance its performance and your learning at an Appleseed. the $50 model is fine. Though bone stock is fine as well. http://www.tech-sights.com/ stock sights are OK.....but they teach come ups and zeroing that the stock SKS sights just aren't capable of. the tech-sights will help you get the most out of the training.

Either are OK for an Appleseed. I would take them both. Get a sling (basic GI web prefered) for both rifles......sling use is stressed at the Appleseed.

If cash is tight just get a sling from walmart and set up both your rifles to accept it. If you can afford it get the GI slings for both and add tech-sights to the SKS with plans on using it as a primary.

Don't wring your hands over the equipment at an Appleseed.....its about the shooter NOT the rifle.......as spoon mentioned, most work is done at reduced distance on simulated long range targets (Army AQTs) the kel-tech, while not ideal will indeed be OK if thats what you want to shoot........bring whatever you got.

Good Luck,
Mike

 

[glockman19]

In a hunting book put out by the CRPA foundation the Zone of Danger is as folows:
Common Rifle Calibers
Caliber-----------------Maximum Range
.22 LR --------------------4,800 Ft.------.91 Mile
.223 Rem/5.56------------11,600 Ft.------2.2 Miles
.30-30 Winchester--------11,000 Ft.------2.08 Miles
.30-06 Springfield---------17,000 Ft.------3.22 Miles
Common Pistol Calibers
.38 Special +p-------------6,400 Ft.-------1.21 Miles
9mm----------------------5,700 Ft.-------1.08 Miles
.357----------------------7,100 Ft.-------1.34 Miles
.45ACP--------------------4,400 Ft.-------.83 Miles
.44 Magnum---------------7,500 Ft.-------1.42 Miles
Common Shotgun Loadings 12 Ga.
#8 Shot---------------------720 Ft.
#8 Buck---------------------910 Ft.
4 Buck---------------------1,440 Ft.-------.27 Miles
#00 Buck------------------1,830 Ft.-------.35 Miles
Slug-----------------------2,450 Ft.-------.43 Miles

 

[Doggieman]

*** is an appleseed?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

In a hunting book put out by the CRPA foundation the Zone of Danger is as folows:

Yes, rounds may be dangerous for much greater distances than they may be considered effective or accurate. The distances you posted are probably about the max range of travel, however. For example, the 9mm is listed with a dangerous range of 5700 ft, but by 3000 ft, a 115 gr. projectile starting at 1200 fps is down to 440 fps or so.

 

[DMK]

*** is an appleseed?

http://www.rwva.org/oldsite/

http://www.jpfo.org/alert20051110.htm

The Revolutionary War Veterans Association is launching a nationwide effort to re-establish what once stood as the primary protection of our unalienable liberties. Through Project Appleseed, their goal is to "plant the Spirit of the Rifleman" across America, working together to find or create facilities and resources to allow every able and willing citizen to learn to shoot a rifle safely and well, and to do so close to home.

JPFO congratulates RWVA on this laudable project and encourages our supporters to help. RWVA has already sponsored two Appleseed shoots this year and want to have six -- or more -- around the country in 2006. In each shoot, RWVA provides a full team of instructors and brings their own insurance, along with targets, etc. It's essentially a turn-key operation needing only a range (which can be on unimproved land).

 

[iamkris]

I b ought an SKS and a M44, but they just seem like overkill for an appleseed

The 25 meter range has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the power of the rifle being shot. It is for convenience and speed of education.

There are lots of guys who scoff at the idea of shooting a rifle for training at 25 meters. They only think real men shoot at 100+ yards. Then they shoot the AQT at 25 yards and find that they...suck. (Strangely enough, they suck at 100, 200 and 500 yards, too)

Learn the basics with a rifle you are likely to use at 25...then they will translate to the longer ranges. Then again, if the issue is that you just don't have those rifles or are recoil shy, by all means, work with a smaller caliber to learn the fundamentals.

I think the other people would probably not enjoy it very much once the novelty wore off...

With 25+ high power rifles going off all at once, no one is going to notice your M44.

 

[Kymasabe]

I shot an Appleseed a few months ago here in Florida. I started day one with my Saiga, finished day one with my Armory USA AK and did all of day two with my Ruger 10/22. Right now I'm working on setting up an SKS for my next Appleseed shoot.

My suggestion is, having attended one of these already, leave the Kel-Tec at home and bring the SKS and the .22LR that you have. Maybe bring the Mosin as as back-up to your back-up or in case someone else needs a gun to borrow. I was wedged between guys shooting AR-10's, FAL's, Cetme's, M14's and the odd Garand. Banging away with an SKS or Mosin really isn't going to get you noticed on the firing line, you'll blend right in. Bring the gun you can shot best with, go out get some practice with it before you go, and if you get a chance, buy Freds book on being a rifleman. There are some shooting positions in there you may want to practice before you go, it'll hurt less if you do.
PS...bring knee and elbow pads or I can just about guarantee you'll be shopping for them at the local Wal-Mart the evening after day one on the range.
Appleseed was the best rifleman training I'd ever attended with the nicest bunch of folks I'd met in a long time. I recommend it for everyone, young and old alike, and can't wait for it to come back to Florida. I've got almost a dozen shooters ready to go.

 

[goalie]

A 9mm carbine would be great for 400 yards.....if you ran the first 300 yards before shooting.