PressCheck
Member
Point a gun at me; someones goin down.
would you shoot?
- Thread starter griz
- Start date
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griz
Member
Double Naught,
We might be saying the same thing in different ways. If your sole purpose is addressing the threat to your life, I would say in this case that would best be accomplished by giving them your money. They had not gone down the line shooting those who cooperated, so there is good reason to believe you would live too, just more poor than you were. But in reality the issue of money does enter in to it. If you want to keep the money you have, it focuses the implied "money or your life" threat on you, leaving you with the shoot or passively hand over the cash choices.
As most have said, I think I would keep the other 149 in mind and go the seemingly safe route. But I wouldn't say shooting the robbers was wrong, just not my choice.
We might be saying the same thing in different ways. If your sole purpose is addressing the threat to your life, I would say in this case that would best be accomplished by giving them your money. They had not gone down the line shooting those who cooperated, so there is good reason to believe you would live too, just more poor than you were. But in reality the issue of money does enter in to it. If you want to keep the money you have, it focuses the implied "money or your life" threat on you, leaving you with the shoot or passively hand over the cash choices.
As most have said, I think I would keep the other 149 in mind and go the seemingly safe route. But I wouldn't say shooting the robbers was wrong, just not my choice.
sturmruger
Member
Most likely the dumb kids would run out if you started shooting, but maybe they would all start shooting back. It is tought to say. I think in this particular situation I would just sit there and do nothing until one of them got close to me. The biggest problem I see if the 3 BGs and Me all shooting it out in a bingo hall with 150 people inside. That scares me. I would be more concerned about the bad guys hitting someone else.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
griz, I have no problem with giving up money. What I do have a problem with is putting my faith and life into the hands of armed robbers who are robbing me at gunpoint. The 13% figure I cited from the FBI is AFTER compliance. Just because they didn't shoot you when they came in and didn't shoot you when you gave them the money does not mean that they aren't going to go ahead and waste you and your fellow bingo buddies on their way out. After all, maybe they don't want any witnesses to survive and they didn't shoot you early on as it is easier to get money from living compliant people than rooting through the bloody clothing of dead compliant people. Given a choice, they don't want bloody money. It is nasty, sticky, dries crusty and smells bad.
Whether or not you choose to defend your life against the threat is a situational call, but don't for a second believe that giving the bad guys your money is your pass card to living through the evening. Even after you give them your money, you know what, they still have guns on you and your fellows and are STILL a threat to your life.
Remember, the bad guys want you to believe that if you give them what they want that they are going to let you go free and sometimes they do. Far too often, all that results is that they get compliant victims and the victims are compliant because they think that so long as they don't cause a problem for the robbers, they won't get hurt.
A threat is a threat so long as the threat has the opportunity, ability, and intent to harm you. You just think paying off the bad guys will remove the intent, but you won't know that until the bad guys are gone (dead, incapacitated, or have physically left the premises).
Whether or not you choose to defend your life against the threat is a situational call, but don't for a second believe that giving the bad guys your money is your pass card to living through the evening. Even after you give them your money, you know what, they still have guns on you and your fellows and are STILL a threat to your life.
Remember, the bad guys want you to believe that if you give them what they want that they are going to let you go free and sometimes they do. Far too often, all that results is that they get compliant victims and the victims are compliant because they think that so long as they don't cause a problem for the robbers, they won't get hurt.
A threat is a threat so long as the threat has the opportunity, ability, and intent to harm you. You just think paying off the bad guys will remove the intent, but you won't know that until the bad guys are gone (dead, incapacitated, or have physically left the premises).
A couple of people mentioned shooting only if the knuckleheads pointed a gun at them. In thinking about it, by that point it would be too late. I couldnt possibly draw, aim, and fire faster than someone with a gun already aimed at me, finger on the trigger. It has to start earlier than that.
artherd
member
Tough call, in this kind of situation, crowded field filled with innocents, and 3 armed perps...
The perps would have to point the gun at me, or try to move me, execute anyone or move to do so, demand my whole wallet instead of just all the cash, etc.
I need to be in fear for my life before I will excercise lethal force. On the other hand, I will excercise said force immideately if and when nessicary. Pointing a gun at me is a clear and direct threat to my life. I will end it if I possibly can.
I also have a responsability to the other 147 people in that room, to not cause them to come to harm through my actions (or the failure of my actions.)
The perps would have to point the gun at me, or try to move me, execute anyone or move to do so, demand my whole wallet instead of just all the cash, etc.
I need to be in fear for my life before I will excercise lethal force. On the other hand, I will excercise said force immideately if and when nessicary. Pointing a gun at me is a clear and direct threat to my life. I will end it if I possibly can.
I also have a responsability to the other 147 people in that room, to not cause them to come to harm through my actions (or the failure of my actions.)
The problem is you'd be inciting a fire fight between you and three other people in a crowd of innocents. Chances are the innocent people would be all around you so any fire coming at you would also be coming at them. So if an innocent person(s) were killed in the gunfight you'd essentially be to blame. Thats a pretty heavy trade off when you are just protecting your wallet.
Feanaro
Member
With a bunch of people around me... I'd watch them carefully but I wouldn't pull unless they started shooting/taking hostages.
If there were only a few people or I was alone? Anyone who pulls a weapon on me will recieve some lead poisoning if I feel I can pull fast enough. Once they point a gun at me or threaten me, it is no longer just about money, my life is in danger. They might not shoot/stab/hurt me. But I'm not a fan of "mights" when it comes to my life.
If there were only a few people or I was alone? Anyone who pulls a weapon on me will recieve some lead poisoning if I feel I can pull fast enough. Once they point a gun at me or threaten me, it is no longer just about money, my life is in danger. They might not shoot/stab/hurt me. But I'm not a fan of "mights" when it comes to my life.
Trisha
Member
Not enough physical information here, for me; but were I to have been there, and seen the three separated from the intended victims and in close proximity to each other, then I believe I would've engaged the targets. Arrival and presentation of weapons by the goblins are of importance: at that instant, before they had an opportunity to disperse into the area, that would have been the time to engage IMO.
Were I only aware (for whatever reason) of the fully developed situation, then things get both complicated, and I get conservative. As Susan and I nearly always go out together, and we practice team tactics for such a scenario, the probability of immediate engagement goes up.
Trisha
Were I only aware (for whatever reason) of the fully developed situation, then things get both complicated, and I get conservative. As Susan and I nearly always go out together, and we practice team tactics for such a scenario, the probability of immediate engagement goes up.
Trisha
Baba Louie
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,831
griz,
depends, don't it?
How'd they do it?
Pop a round or two off to "get yer attention" first?
Control the exits?
Did they:
Have Revolvers or Hi-Cap Semi's or rifle/shotgun?
All three Walk down the rows of tables with pillowcases out?
Hold guns to the head of two victims while one did the taking?
Did I "Fear for my life?"
Could I get one, two or three shots off without putting too many innocent others at risk of loss of life or injury?
Were they acting all "psycho" or calm cool and collected?
NOT ONE BINGO PLAYER IN 150 WAS ARMED?
or if there were, did they just decide to play it safe as being the best course of action for all?
I'd probably do something stupid (Stand up and shout I GOT BINGO!) and spend the rest of my life wondering if I needed more training for that night's shooting activities and how I was going to pay off all of the lawyer's fees and hospital bills I had accumulated overnight.
Makes ya wanta re-think carrying a 5-shot snubbie to the old Bingo Parlor tho' don't it?
depends, don't it?
How'd they do it?
Pop a round or two off to "get yer attention" first?
Control the exits?
Did they:
Have Revolvers or Hi-Cap Semi's or rifle/shotgun?
All three Walk down the rows of tables with pillowcases out?
Hold guns to the head of two victims while one did the taking?
Did I "Fear for my life?"
Could I get one, two or three shots off without putting too many innocent others at risk of loss of life or injury?
Were they acting all "psycho" or calm cool and collected?
NOT ONE BINGO PLAYER IN 150 WAS ARMED?
or if there were, did they just decide to play it safe as being the best course of action for all?
I'd probably do something stupid (Stand up and shout I GOT BINGO!) and spend the rest of my life wondering if I needed more training for that night's shooting activities and how I was going to pay off all of the lawyer's fees and hospital bills I had accumulated overnight.
Makes ya wanta re-think carrying a 5-shot snubbie to the old Bingo Parlor tho' don't it?
griz
Member
I was going to try and give more details from memory but instead I'll go and get the article from the library. I do remember they came in the side entrance that was closest to the till, and that indicated they had cased the place. Several people slipped out other doors and a few people hid wallets or purses before they were stolen.
And Double Naught, admittedly they could have started shooting after they had collected the money, but my resoning was from simple logistics. They probably didn't bring enough ammo to slay 150 people, therefore they probably didn't intend to eliminate all witnesses.
And Double Naught, admittedly they could have started shooting after they had collected the money, but my resoning was from simple logistics. They probably didn't bring enough ammo to slay 150 people, therefore they probably didn't intend to eliminate all witnesses.
Joe Demko
Member
Those of you who have said that you would have engaged the robbers make me curious. Are you so good with a handgun that you could put all three BGs down before any of them had a chance to return fire? The typical criminal isn't much of a marksman, so we can assume lots of wild shots with 149 bullet sponges there to absorb them. Man, I can just see the guy who thought he was doing the right thing getting crucified legally and in the media for "escalating a robbery into a bloodbath."
A gunfight with 149 bystanders is kind of a tough row to hoe. Too many possible outcomes are bad for me to want to be the one who fires the first shot.
A gunfight with 149 bystanders is kind of a tough row to hoe. Too many possible outcomes are bad for me to want to be the one who fires the first shot.
I'll add another element into the brew. How did the robbers go about collecting their loot? Did they pass a bag and have people "contribute" or did they frisk people? If the latter, I wonder what I would do watching them coming down the line frisking people and knowing that they will find my revolver concealed when they get to me. Will they take it? Almost certainly. Will they use it on me? Possibly. Tough tough call to make.
Leatherneck
Member
If anyone was carrying concealed with a VA CHP, they were breaking VA law, assuming the Elks Club had a license to serve alcohol on the premises. You see, we Virginians go stark crazy around alcohol. 
TC
TFL Survivor
TC
TFL Survivor
Trisha
Member
Golgo-13,
The basic drill:
Run 100 yards (simulate crisis rush), sit cross-legged for random (under 60 sec, determined by Susan) period, while she sets up three targets (one or more w/hostage) at 10 yards.
At signal, draw from conceal carry rig and neutralize (one shot head shot ea).
I have never gone beyond 2 sec, and in the past year have never touched a no-shoot.
I know with a reasonable degree of confidence that I can succeed, under the right physical layout. Good tactics demand I not exceed my training except under the most dire circumstance - and the situation described at the beginning of this thread may have fallen within my abilities.
I guess my point here is that I will not be a willing victim. I will not second-guess an armed goblin. To me, extending the period of control a predator has only empowers it. The time to act is the instant an immediate threat is recognized, with full situational awareness, and Susan and I train for that.
'Hypotheticals' are good tactical reviews, and while in some ways I understand your sentiments, Columbine happened only a short drive away. Since then, I've simplified my CQB rules of engagement. . .
Trisha
The basic drill:
Run 100 yards (simulate crisis rush), sit cross-legged for random (under 60 sec, determined by Susan) period, while she sets up three targets (one or more w/hostage) at 10 yards.
At signal, draw from conceal carry rig and neutralize (one shot head shot ea).
I have never gone beyond 2 sec, and in the past year have never touched a no-shoot.
I know with a reasonable degree of confidence that I can succeed, under the right physical layout. Good tactics demand I not exceed my training except under the most dire circumstance - and the situation described at the beginning of this thread may have fallen within my abilities.
I guess my point here is that I will not be a willing victim. I will not second-guess an armed goblin. To me, extending the period of control a predator has only empowers it. The time to act is the instant an immediate threat is recognized, with full situational awareness, and Susan and I train for that.
'Hypotheticals' are good tactical reviews, and while in some ways I understand your sentiments, Columbine happened only a short drive away. Since then, I've simplified my CQB rules of engagement. . .
Trisha
Joe Demko
Member
Trisha,
That's very impressive. However, I'd like to submit a few items for your consideration:
1. Your paper targets don't move.
2. Your paper targets don't shoot back.
3. If you should screw up and hit a paper hostage, all you have to do is put a paster over the hole and try again
4. When you go to the range and practice this, you are fully aware of what will be going on and what it is you are trying to do. You aren't in a bingo hall full of scared people with real bad guys with real guns on the move.
5. Your paper targets all succumb to one shot every time. Real people aren't always so cooperative, even on headshots.
6. Your targets don't shoot back. (That one is worth mentioning twice.)
I appreciate your sentiments and share some of them myself, but while I might consider shooting it out with 3 or more banditos when my life is the only one I'm risking, I'm not at all sure I have the right or the responsibility to initiate a gunfight where 149 other people have a stake in were every last round lands. If the mutts start shooting folks, it is a no brainer; it's that firing the first shot part that I think bears some serious thought.
Regards.
That's very impressive. However, I'd like to submit a few items for your consideration:
1. Your paper targets don't move.
2. Your paper targets don't shoot back.
3. If you should screw up and hit a paper hostage, all you have to do is put a paster over the hole and try again
4. When you go to the range and practice this, you are fully aware of what will be going on and what it is you are trying to do. You aren't in a bingo hall full of scared people with real bad guys with real guns on the move.
5. Your paper targets all succumb to one shot every time. Real people aren't always so cooperative, even on headshots.
6. Your targets don't shoot back. (That one is worth mentioning twice.)
I appreciate your sentiments and share some of them myself, but while I might consider shooting it out with 3 or more banditos when my life is the only one I'm risking, I'm not at all sure I have the right or the responsibility to initiate a gunfight where 149 other people have a stake in were every last round lands. If the mutts start shooting folks, it is a no brainer; it's that firing the first shot part that I think bears some serious thought.
Regards.
Trisha
Member
Thanks for the feedback, truly.
My prayer is to never, ever have to make that decision, be faced with such a circumstance. In the interim, I'll train as thoroughly and comprehensively as I can, as frequently as I can afford.
Susan and I have been shot at, more than once. 'Nuff said.
Again, thank you. Truly.
Trisha
My prayer is to never, ever have to make that decision, be faced with such a circumstance. In the interim, I'll train as thoroughly and comprehensively as I can, as frequently as I can afford.
Susan and I have been shot at, more than once. 'Nuff said.
Again, thank you. Truly.
Trisha
Golgo, you forgot to mention that not only do BG's move but people move too--sometimes in very unpredictable and erratic ways. Add to that some very loud noise from guns going off (anyone practice without hearing protection on an indoor range? I tried that once.) and I dont see how anyone could maintain any semblence of fire discipline. I would hate to be in the witness box explaining to the attorney for the family of the deceased how my bullet creased the victim when I thought I had a clear shot.
Zundfolge
Member
We always hear about how many people freeze up when confronted by armed criminals ... but what about the criminals?
Many times in these discussions and especially in discussions with antis, I'm left with the impression that most people think that criminals are 1) brave, 2) well trained, 3) commited to seeing their crime through no matter what ... as though criminals are like SEALs or something.
When an armed criminal is confronted by an armed would-be victim, do you think think most of them will react like a battle hardened spec-ops spook and headshot everyone in the room in a blink of an eye?
I bet there's a good chance that the armed criminal will be just as likely as his intended victims to freeze up when he sees the business end of someone elses gun.
So I do believe that it might very well be possible for a prepaired armed citizen to put all three BGs down before any of them have a chance to compose themselves to return fire (and betting that most criminals aren't all that well trained, I'd put the accuracy of the average gun owner up against that of the criminal).
Joe Demko
Member
Everything you said about criminals might be true about the three we are discussing. Willing to bet everything you have, including possibly your freedom, on it? In a crowded bingo hall, all they have to do is fire wildly and hit somebody else, and you lose. Especially if you are the one who fired the first shot. Right or wrong, you'll likely be painted as reckless, at the very least, in the criminal and/or civil proceedings that follow. As I said earlier, what I might do alone is radically different from what I might do in a situation like the one described. I tell you what, if you fired the first shot and my grammaw got killed by anybody's fire in the ensuing gunfight, I'd give some damn serious consideration to coming after you in court. Your CCW isn't a license to play hero, it isn't the same as a cop's badge, and it isn't a get out of jail free card. You know what else? I wouldn't accept "I thought I was fast enough and they would freeze up" as any kind of an excuse. There's little tolerance on this board for colateral damage when the police deal with the criminal element. I apply the same standard to ccw holders.
griz
Member
Well I couldn’t come up with the original article from Dec. 30 but here is the follow up from the Dec. 31 edition of the Daily Press:
Police arrest 3 suspects in bingo robbery
Accomplice aided in arrests
The unmasked lookout who scoped out Elks Lodge 336 before it was robbed Monday night helped police arrest three suspects Tuesday.
“Someone came in first without a mask as a lookout and then the crew came in,†said Cpl. Jimmie Wideman, police spokesman. “One of the victims recognized the sentinel and that took the whole thing apart.â€
Detectives arrested 23 year-old Nishaka Hobbs, of the 100 block of Newport News Avenue and a 15 year-old female from the 600 block of Michigan Drive.
Investigators are still searching for an adult male in connection with the crime, Wideman said.
Patrons at the lodge, located in the first block of Tide Mill Lane, were robbed at gunpoint shortly after the first game of bingo started Monday evening. Three masked assailants armed with handguns entered through a side door and stole prize money, wallets and purses from some of the 150 players.
Elks officials plan to address concerns immediately.
“Were taking action now to make sure we have security in place when the bingo games are going on,†said Fred Page, a lodge trustee who was working at the time of the robbery. Page estimated the bingo purse was in excess of $4000 and said the lodge would now have armed security.
The patrons behaved extremely well considering the circumstances,†he said. “When people are waving guns in your face, it’s pretty much hell.â€
Page noted that the robbery was especially disheartening because the proceeds from the weekly games go directly to local charities like the Salvation Army and the Red Cross.
Some of the victims managed to thwart the robbers themselves.
“I had just won $471 on one of the instant games, so when they came I threw my purse in the trash can. There was no way they were getting my money,†said a female victim, who asked not to be identified. “Another girl at the table behind me stuck her wallet in her pants.â€
Even after the stickup, some of the 100 regular players wanted to continue the game, the 45 year-old victim said.
“The police wouldn’t let us,†she said. “We told the lodge to write us IOU’s but the cops said that it was a crime scene.â€
The victim said she had been going to the bingo night for 14 years, and she was sure the thieves knew the layout.
“They had definitely been there before because they came in the side door and 3 feet to their left is the cash register with all the winnings,†she said. “They knew exactly when to come in, too.â€
“But she said that the crime wouldn’t keep her from weekly bingo.
“I’ll go back next Wednesday. When it’s my time it’s my time,†she said. “But a lot of people are scared off.â€
Police charged Hobbs with abduction, use of a firearm in the commission of a felony and robbery.
Both juveniles were charged with nine counts of robbery, nine counts of abduction, one count of attempted abduction and 19 counts of a use of a firearm in commission of a felony.
The investigation is still continuing and there could be additional charges against the suspects, Wideman said.
__ End of Article__
That’s all there is. In the first article they said some people ran out other doors but not much more than that. I don’t know if the 19 counts mean “only†19 people were robbed or something else. Sorry it took so long to post this, but I had to go get the paper.
Police arrest 3 suspects in bingo robbery
Accomplice aided in arrests
The unmasked lookout who scoped out Elks Lodge 336 before it was robbed Monday night helped police arrest three suspects Tuesday.
“Someone came in first without a mask as a lookout and then the crew came in,†said Cpl. Jimmie Wideman, police spokesman. “One of the victims recognized the sentinel and that took the whole thing apart.â€
Detectives arrested 23 year-old Nishaka Hobbs, of the 100 block of Newport News Avenue and a 15 year-old female from the 600 block of Michigan Drive.
Investigators are still searching for an adult male in connection with the crime, Wideman said.
Patrons at the lodge, located in the first block of Tide Mill Lane, were robbed at gunpoint shortly after the first game of bingo started Monday evening. Three masked assailants armed with handguns entered through a side door and stole prize money, wallets and purses from some of the 150 players.
Elks officials plan to address concerns immediately.
“Were taking action now to make sure we have security in place when the bingo games are going on,†said Fred Page, a lodge trustee who was working at the time of the robbery. Page estimated the bingo purse was in excess of $4000 and said the lodge would now have armed security.
The patrons behaved extremely well considering the circumstances,†he said. “When people are waving guns in your face, it’s pretty much hell.â€
Page noted that the robbery was especially disheartening because the proceeds from the weekly games go directly to local charities like the Salvation Army and the Red Cross.
Some of the victims managed to thwart the robbers themselves.
“I had just won $471 on one of the instant games, so when they came I threw my purse in the trash can. There was no way they were getting my money,†said a female victim, who asked not to be identified. “Another girl at the table behind me stuck her wallet in her pants.â€
Even after the stickup, some of the 100 regular players wanted to continue the game, the 45 year-old victim said.
“The police wouldn’t let us,†she said. “We told the lodge to write us IOU’s but the cops said that it was a crime scene.â€
The victim said she had been going to the bingo night for 14 years, and she was sure the thieves knew the layout.
“They had definitely been there before because they came in the side door and 3 feet to their left is the cash register with all the winnings,†she said. “They knew exactly when to come in, too.â€
“But she said that the crime wouldn’t keep her from weekly bingo.
“I’ll go back next Wednesday. When it’s my time it’s my time,†she said. “But a lot of people are scared off.â€
Police charged Hobbs with abduction, use of a firearm in the commission of a felony and robbery.
Both juveniles were charged with nine counts of robbery, nine counts of abduction, one count of attempted abduction and 19 counts of a use of a firearm in commission of a felony.
The investigation is still continuing and there could be additional charges against the suspects, Wideman said.
__ End of Article__
That’s all there is. In the first article they said some people ran out other doors but not much more than that. I don’t know if the 19 counts mean “only†19 people were robbed or something else. Sorry it took so long to post this, but I had to go get the paper.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Yes, for the purposes of discussion we often do consider criminals as brave, well trained, and committed. Don't forget about being prepared as well. To consider otherwise would be to make a grave error in underestimating the potential of the opposition. We know from a series of historical events that when criminal are brave (either actual bravery, drug induced bravery, or whatever), well trained, and committed, lots of people get hurt in the attempts to stop the criminals. Many of the 1920s/30s gangsters possessed these qualities as did the SLA, North Hollywood bank robbers, and the Platt and Matix in Miami.
Are all criminals that way? Nope. But they do have one factor on their side that we, as law abiding citizens don't have. They get to screw up shots and hit unintended targets. Heck, they are already acting illegally and so whether they shoot you as a concealed carry person or shoot the woman off to your side who is holding her new baby, or maybe shoot the baby, really is of not legal consequence to them. If you shoot a bystander or her baby, you can expect to face possible criminal charges and to be paying for your mistake financially for quite some time to come. The bad guys have nothing to lose in that regard.
As such, the bad guys have the option of spray and pray firing and they may get lucky in nailing your CCW butt in the process, not out of skill, but out of pseudo controlled volume of fire. As a CCW, LEO, or general good guy, your shots need to be absolutely on target and not over penetrate or they need to impact harmlessly against some wall, floor, or where ever.
The truth of the matter is that if you end up in a fight with bad guys that the bad guys you face are likely not terribly experienced, not well trained, not using well maintained firearms, who have only a mediocre concept of a total plan (get money, run away), and who have a drug induced false bravado. Even so, they may still get lucky and without the constraints on public safety that you have as a law abiding good guy, you are actually at a disadvantage in the fight because of such constraints. The bad guy(s), if he does get away, may never be caught, but as a good guy shooter, you will be there when the cops arrive, your gun will be taken, and rounds from your gun will be ballistically compared to rounds collected from walls and people and if you shot the wrong person, you will be in deep doodoo.
As you review various shootout cases, either in reading or watching them reenacted on TV, pay particular attention to those cases where things go really wrong for the good guys. When they go wrong the most is when the bad guys are brave, prepared, and have a definite plan of action. Most street cops and CCW folks train or take into consideration training for what they expect to encounter, a young adult male, inexperienced, maybe with a buddy, involved in a crime over a small amount of valuable (robbing a convenience store, for example). And expecting nothing more than a neophyte gangster, the good guys often get seriously screwed.
Are all criminals that way? Nope. But they do have one factor on their side that we, as law abiding citizens don't have. They get to screw up shots and hit unintended targets. Heck, they are already acting illegally and so whether they shoot you as a concealed carry person or shoot the woman off to your side who is holding her new baby, or maybe shoot the baby, really is of not legal consequence to them. If you shoot a bystander or her baby, you can expect to face possible criminal charges and to be paying for your mistake financially for quite some time to come. The bad guys have nothing to lose in that regard.
As such, the bad guys have the option of spray and pray firing and they may get lucky in nailing your CCW butt in the process, not out of skill, but out of pseudo controlled volume of fire. As a CCW, LEO, or general good guy, your shots need to be absolutely on target and not over penetrate or they need to impact harmlessly against some wall, floor, or where ever.
The truth of the matter is that if you end up in a fight with bad guys that the bad guys you face are likely not terribly experienced, not well trained, not using well maintained firearms, who have only a mediocre concept of a total plan (get money, run away), and who have a drug induced false bravado. Even so, they may still get lucky and without the constraints on public safety that you have as a law abiding good guy, you are actually at a disadvantage in the fight because of such constraints. The bad guy(s), if he does get away, may never be caught, but as a good guy shooter, you will be there when the cops arrive, your gun will be taken, and rounds from your gun will be ballistically compared to rounds collected from walls and people and if you shot the wrong person, you will be in deep doodoo.
As you review various shootout cases, either in reading or watching them reenacted on TV, pay particular attention to those cases where things go really wrong for the good guys. When they go wrong the most is when the bad guys are brave, prepared, and have a definite plan of action. Most street cops and CCW folks train or take into consideration training for what they expect to encounter, a young adult male, inexperienced, maybe with a buddy, involved in a crime over a small amount of valuable (robbing a convenience store, for example). And expecting nothing more than a neophyte gangster, the good guys often get seriously screwed.
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