Would you trust a double barrel to save your life?

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If a SxS was all I had, I'd make do. Then again, if all I had was a Ka-Bar, I'd have to make that do as well. I know the statistics say I shouldn't need more than 1-2 rounds but I am one of these kind of guys that b elieves that it's better to have and not need than to need and not have. This is why I would much rather have my Mossberg or Remington pump over a 2-round coach gun. As far as the cost thing goes, I haven't checked the price of a coach gun (already own a Rossi I use for CAS so not in the market for another one) but a Mexican Mossberg (aka Maverick) is pretty darn cheap and gives you more than 2 chances at a possible more than 1 intruder. Don't get me wrong, I like my Rossi but it's a gun for games. For serious business where my butt is on the line, I'm going to stick with my higher capacity pump guns.
 
SHR970 said:
I live in the Democratik Peoples Republik of California. We have a great penal code for unwanted intruders...I'll highlight a key word in it.

CPC 198.5 Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.


In the event that I have to use force and in the event that I end up with a D.A. who has an agenda and wants to make a name for himself (not like that has ever happened;)) he will paint the situation that I wasn't in fear and I will have to face a jury. In a declared good shoot you don't face a jury. If I have to face a jury I don't want to have a Counter Commando'ed out gun displayed that paints me in a bad light as some crazed guy waiting for a chance to kill some hapless guy who accidently entered the wrong residence.

I want a gun that will help make my defense and that could include that the perp. was either crazy or drugged out of his skull because EVERYONE knows that no one in his right mind will advance toward a man pointing a double barrel. Even a Gun Fearing Wussie juror will find that plausible. Since my front door is at the bottom of the stairs, and I am not cutting off his opportunity to retreat any forward movement can be viewed as fear of imminent peril. It helps to know and understand your States use of force laws. :D

Here, the shooting will be investigated as a homicide and subject to the D.A.s discretion. We don't have Make My Day or full on Castle Doctrine; this comes close but close isn't always good enough. If I say anything that could be construed to negate my fear I could be charged with Murder 1 or 2.

As far as the P.D. taking good care of my firearm before during and after the case; I have seen otherwise. I bet on not being able to get it back without jumping through numerous hoops. They can have my Stoger or my Mossy's, but they can't have my Italian O/U's.


I sat as a juror on a case where the rustball presented as the weapon "used" in the crime and bullets "matched" to it was an evidentiary reason for aquittal. That thing was was frozen shut and the defense asked how they could match a bullet to a gun that clearly was incapable of firing. It may have been the same make and model as the one shown in the pictures to us but it certainly wasn't in the same condition. In the managing of evidence, there are many hands and fingers involved and many chances for abuse, neglect, etc. Need another example...look at the Katrina guns; hundreds of examples of conficated weapons that were mishandled.
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I have read in way back in the day, in the glossy gun rags, and now on the internet the same "fear" about tricked out firearms, and hand loads.

I understand your concern, that you live in California. It can be a rather frustrating place if you are a gun guy. I left in that place in 1980. I will not be returning anytime soon.

Regarding your concerns, have u ever heard of an actual jury being influenced? Can you provide documentation? News stories, case law?

Regarding your comment regarding the seizure during Katrina, those seizures were all deemed illegal by the courts. During that horrible storm and its aftermath nothing was functional. Especially the NOPD.
 
Another advantage of the side-by-side coachgun is use as a discreet traveling long gun, especially where handguns are restricted but shotguns not as much. Remove the barrels, and the coachgun fits nicely in a common "medium" 22-inch duffle bag. You might need a lock on the zipper pull to be legally “securely encased”, depending on local laws. I have sometimes found it handy to be able to move a long gun back and forth from a vehicle to a motel without calling attention to it. It just looks like one more cheap piece of baggage. Just be sure to put other light/bulky stuff in the bag to fill it out a bit. Otherwise it looks like a big gun in a little bag.
 
icemanmpls wrote: Regarding your concerns, have u ever heard of an actual jury being influenced? Can you provide documentation? News stories, case law?
Click to expand...

No but you also know that your question is a strawman fallacy at best. Seldom if ever do you have written in case law detailing the actual deciding / influencing factors that a jury uses to form the basis of a conviction. The news stories that contain any info. on a jurors statements are also not readily searchable in all but the most publicised of cases. However, here in the DPRK we do have numerous antifirearm laws that are based on a gun's features, materials, and / or "safety" features (ie assault weapon ban, high cap mag ban, cheap gun / SNS ban, DOJ saftey certification test, 50 BMG ban, etc.). Even if your Tacticool gun is legal, the seed can easily be planted in a GFW's jurors mind that you had ill intent. There have been enough news stories in the past (shown on NBC, CBS, ABC local affiliates) where the media showcased the evil arsenal (usually a couple of 22 rifles, a couple of handguns, and a pump shotgun plus a couple hundred rounds of ammo) that was found in a search of a home. This mindset is prevelent here and I take it into account.

icemanmpls wrote: Regarding your comment regarding the seizure during Katrina, those seizures were all deemed illegal by the courts. During that horrible storm and its aftermath nothing was functional. Especially the NOPD.
Click to expand...

A rather large number of those illegal confiscations were carried out by California Highway Patrol and Oklahoma National Guard. You can look up the videos to see the proof. I can almost understand the guard doing this (blindly following orders) but CHP are "Trained LEO's" who followed clearly illegal orders. Just because they were deemed illegal well after the fact does not in any way change the fact that the siezed "evidence" / property was not handled in accordance with established norms. Nor does it change the fact that the guns were pieces of junk when they were finally available for return.

I have bothered to take my circumstances into account. These include but are not limited to political landscape, area crime rate, police response time and my living situation. I have in the past been licensed for on the job carry in this state and have a better understanding of the laws governing nonLEO carry and use of force in this state than most citizens. I have listened to the advice of the LEO's that trained me and signed off on my documentation.

You circumstances will be different so you need to use good judgement based on your set of circumstances. Mine suggest that I am well served by a SxS as one of my choices.
 
SHR970 said:
No but you also know that your question is a strawman fallacy at best. Seldom if ever do you have written in case law detailing the actual deciding / influencing factors that a jury uses to form the basis of a conviction. The news stories that contain any info. on a jurors statements are also not readily searchable in all but the most publicised of cases. However, here in the DPRK we do have numerous antifirearm laws that are based on a gun's features, materials, and / or "safety" features (ie assault weapon ban, high cap mag ban, cheap gun / SNS ban, DOJ saftey certification test, 50 BMG ban, etc.). Even if your Tacticool gun is legal, the seed can easily be planted in a GFW's jurors mind that you had ill intent. There have been enough news stories in the past (shown on NBC, CBS, ABC local affiliates) where the media showcased the evil arsenal (usually a couple of 22 rifles, a couple of handguns, and a pump shotgun plus a couple hundred rounds of ammo) that was found in a search of a home. This mindset is prevelent here and I take it into account.



A rather large number of those illegal confiscations were carried out by California Highway Patrol and Oklahoma National Guard. You can look up the videos to see the proof. I can almost understand the guard doing this (blindly following orders) but CHP are "Trained LEO's" who followed clearly illegal orders. Just because they were deemed illegal well after the fact does not in any way change the fact that the seized "evidence" / property was not handled in accordance with established norms. Nor does it change the fact that the guns were pieces of junk when they were finally available for return.

I have bothered to take my circumstances into account. These include but are not limited to political landscape, area crime rate, police response time and my living situation. I have in the past been licensed for on the job carry in this state and have a better understanding of the laws governing nonLEO carry and use of force in this state than most citizens. I have listened to the advice of the LEO's that trained me and signed off on my documentation.

You circumstances will be different so you need to use good judgment based on your set of circumstances. Mine suggest that I am well served by a SxS as one of my choices.
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Great argument. I am still not convinced. If someone has a diabetic coma while behind the wheel of car and runs up on the sidewalk, does it matter if its a 15 yo beater, or a $100,000. sports car?

My 12ga Mossberg has a flashlight. Uncle Mikes sleeve to hold shells on the stock. Is that considered tricked out?

What would happen if using a double barrel, both triggers were pulled during an act of self defense? In the closet was a glock, and a 12ga pump. Would the jury be told the shooter had a choice? Instead he filled the perp with two barrels of lead with the evil looking short 18" double barrel. What if one used that "evil" looking glock, instead of that pretty s&w wheelgun?

The point I think both of us are trying to make is, lawyers will use drama to win.

I contend the tools used in self defense do not matter in law.

The California nuts have taken over. Unbelievable laws. Politicians such as Diane Finespun. The state is a mess in more ways i care to list.

I was not aware the out of state helper cops were involved in seizing the lawfully owned guns of the public during the Katrina mess.


I also was licensed to carry on the job in California (Oakland).
 
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No gun can save your life.

The quick and correct decision on your part or by someone near you can save your life, and either might involve the use of a firearm, but the gun itself figures less in the life-saving equation than the people involved. A lot less.
 
Another advantage of the side-by-side coachgun is use as a discreet traveling long gun, especially where handguns are restricted but shotguns not as much.
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Twas the original reason I bought one, sorta. See, one year I took my GoldWing motorcycle up to my buddies for our annual dove hunt and had to take my Winchester 1400 in a case strapped to the back. I was paranoid leaving it out of sight at gas stations and got to wondering what I'd do if I had a flat or trouble and had to leave the bike to get something. Can't just walk down the highway with a shotgun case.

I came across my 20 gauge spartan coach gun in a LGS for $299. Broken down, it fit easily in a saddle bag or top case of my Wing. I don't have that Wing anymore, but I can break the gun down and at least hide it in my backpack strapped to the rack on my KLR650. One doesn't look so strange with a back pack on the highway. :D It's not locked up, but only I know there's a shotgun in there. I can take it off and carry the backpack in to restaurants and such.

I was unsure how a short, whippy, light weight gun would work for wing shooting, but it's deadly, especially on birds that just appear over tree tops or for shooting around tanks where there's a lot of quick pointing. One must concentrate on the high flyers, but even there, the thing works well when I'm following through as I should. I've been able to shim the stock such that it fits me pretty well, which does help. Can't always do that with doubles, a down side, but there was enough slop in the stock's fitting (a good thing in this case) that I could reduce the right hand cast (I'm a lefty) to zero and lower the drop just enough. A recoil pad cured the pull length deficiency.

As used to the gun as I've become shooting this thing every season now for the last 6 years or so, the thing works well for me as a home defense gun. I keep two rounds of 3 buck in it, 3 rounds on the butt cuff, and 2 slugs. I just cock the hammers via breaking the gun open (explained previously in this thread) and I'm ready to go. I even use this gun a lot as a truck gun, bike gun, just runnin' around outdoors. It works for hogs, doves, rabbits, squirrels, whatever and is dandy to have around for protection. I've gotten pretty fast at the reloading since I get a lot of practice when the birds are flying fast and furious. I don't even have to look when I'm pulling the spent rounds or loading the breach, just do it. :D I sorta wish it had ejectors, would speed things up, but it works for me as is.

People have the same reload argument with single shots, but I goose hunt with one. I keep a round in my hand. I have become capable of getting two shots off at a group of geese if I can get 'em to set their wings for the first shot. They have to get up some steam to get out of Dodge after the first shot which gives me enough time to load. Having that ejector helps. I've not hit a double, yet, but I have taken down a cripple with the second shot. :D

This is why I like using my hunting guns, though, familiarity. I do hunt ducks with a pump or auto so I'm familiar with repeaters, but the little coach gun is just so bloomin' handy, almost like a handgun, really long handgun I'll admit. :D It's become my go to gun for anything short of waterfowl or buckshot on hogs, another story. I have a 12 gauge double for THAT, though, and a 10 gauge single shot.
 
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Try this. The old African hunters who used double rifles carried a pair of reload shells between their offhand fingers like cigars. With very little practice you can dump your first two shells and insert the two fresh ones. In effect, the first two shots can be delivered as fast as a handgun double-tap, a slight pause and another double tap is loaded. If you put your further reloads in a fitted stock attachment (I got mine in Izevsk Russia, at the Baikal factory outlet, but there are American made ones that will serve just as well), you have a several reloads at your finger tips that (with practice) can be delivered damn near as fast as a pump gun. Certainly, your first two shots are much faster than a pump gun. You can snap a pair of shells out between your fingers for the next reload almost as fast as you can recover the gun for the next pair of shots. Watch some of those old Capstick African hunting vids to see how it's done.

It does take practice...

The real advantage, in my opinion, after using one of these for a number of years, is how short and handy they are. It's almost like a pistol, but with a payload many times greater than any handgun. It's so short that retention is not a consideration.

This is how mine is set up for quick reloads (below). Two in the barrel, two in my fingers and four ready to grasp after the first reload. It works, but only because I spent many boxes of shells practicing those quick reloads. The real advantage though, again, is how short the package is. It's a big handgun with a huge payload. In hiking in Kodiak, it's all slugs. In my home its 00 buck, and more recently #4 buck. It's short enough that nobody is going to wrestle it away without a belly full of buckshot. With #4 buck, a "double-tap" at 5 to 10 yards makes a complete mess of a pumpkin or other simulated home invader.

I have 100% confidence in my coach gun for several different tasks. I have two different pump guns, but when the SHTF, I'm grabbing the Baikal.


Baikal2.jpg
 
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For home defense and room to room distances..

the coach guns have an advantage the pumps do not have. I can stand with my coach gun hanging by my side pointing at the floor and ready for quick shoulder action if need be. Something that is not easy to do with a larger pump. When riding my mule around the farm, I can easily lift it from the scabbard for quick action because of its shorter length, which I have done on several occasions. --Snoop
 
not too long age I bought a 1897 winchester copy for cowboy action, I decided it could do double duty as my HD gun and sold my 870. However until I had run the '97 enough to be comfortable I left my other CAS shotgun a 1887 hammered coach gun in the closet. 2 rounds of OO buck with 4 more on the butt cuff and I slept like a baby.
 
I'd trust it to save my life...
.
.
.
.
.
...twice.

If I need it three times, I'd choose something else.
 
If it is all I had, yes I would....but if you are in the market for a HD gun, there are MUCH better options without breaking the bank.

Remington 870's or Mossberg 500's with and 18.5" barrel can be had for under $400, and oftentimes even under $300
 
I leave the Benelli M4 in the safe. Next to my bed is my 12ga double barrel hammer gun. Next to that is a FNH SCAR MK16. On the nightstand is the railed 1911 with a Surefire X400&DG switch. The bag hanging ON the hammer gun has another Commander in the bag, extra shotgun shells, extra 1911 loaded magazines, and a couple thirty round mags for the SCAR.

If none of that works, I wasn't going to make it until morning anyway.

Folks need to remember it's about the Indian, not the arrow.

Learn how to fight, then pick your weapons.

My guns are the ones that I think will work best for me, my situation and reasons. Based on my experience, training, abilities, and choosing. You need to choose the guns that will work best for your situation and your reasons, not mine.

Then get enough training and proper practice to deploy your weapons effectively. Set up your defences for your home properly, get a dog if at all possible, also get a monitored alarm system. Think defense in depth, with your guns being the last line of that defense. Recon your neighborhood, house, yard etc... know and own your ground. Much of this can be done at no cost but time.

Good luck.

Fred
 
Operator familiarity

A Cowboy Action Competitor with a Single Action, Lever gun and Double gun
can probably run any of these better than the majority of shooters can run anything else.

Operator skill and hardware familiarity can make the difference.
 
I prefer pistols, so that's just me.

However, my wife grew up on SxS and O/U shotguns. So guess what, that's what she'll use for home defense. She's more effective with her 20ga SxS than any other gun, and that is what counts the most.
 
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