WWII era guns found in creek

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jrou111

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http://www.al.com/birminghamnews/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1239696950298400.xml&coll=2

Alabama lawmen recover World War II weapons in Bibb County creek
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 CAROL ROBINSONNews staff writer
A small cache of Japanese, Italian and German World War II-era weapons found dumped in a Bibb County creek is baffling to even the most veteran lawmen.

The firepower, discovered by a state road crew conducting a bridge inspection just north of Centreville late last week, is illegal to own, still in working condition and probably worth in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, said David Hyche, resident agent in charge at the Birmingham office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

"I've never encountered anything like it in my 21 years," Hyche said. "It's amazing to us what was recovered there. These are things you see in the movies on a Saturday afternoon."

Amazing, and potentially dangerous, he said.

"It's a significant arsenal if it got into the wrong hands," Hyche said.

Bibb County Sheriff Keith Hannah said state road workers called his office on Thursday after spotting the weapons.

Hannah sent a sheriff's dive team into the water, where they found four Japanese machine guns, a Japanese anti-tank cannon, an Italian machine gun, a Japanese 50 mm mortar and a Thompson submachine gun, also known as the Tommy Gun, a popular Prohibition-era weapon.

Authorities recovered two other weapons, but are withholding a description to help in the investigation, should someone with information call.

The weapons were found in water that ranged from four to 12 feet deep and Hannah said they had been there probably less than 24 hours.

"No silt had washed over them and they had not even started rusting," the sheriff said.

The weapons were field tested and the majority are in working condition and could be fired with modern ammunition.

"Can you imagine if these had gotten into the wrong hands?" Hyche said.

Hyche said it wasn't difficult after World War II to bring weapons back as souvenirs, and there was a period where they could have been legally registered.

The guns found in Bibb County were not legally imported or registered, Hyche said.

Authorities can only speculate for now how the guns ended up in a creek. They may have been taken in a burglary, a robbery or simply been found by a family member of a veteran who didn't know what to do with them, Hannah and Hyche said.

"Obviously, we want to find out if there's more," Hyche said.

Investigators believe whoever had these weapons bragged to someone else. "The chances of having these in your house and not showing them off is slim," Hyche said.

They want to talk with anyone who may have been associated with the weapons. They also are trying to locate a museum interested in displaying them.

"We don't want to destroy pieces of history," Hyche said.

Anyone with information on the weapons is asked to call ATF at 205-583-5970 or the Bibb County Sheriff's Office at 205-926-4683.

E-mail: [email protected]

:rolleyes: at the ATF, but at least they want to let a museum show it instead of IMMEDIATELY destroy it. :banghead:

My bet is someone's grandfather passed and they didn't want to get arrested when they went to turn it in.
 
They also are trying to locate a museum interested in displaying them.

Lotsa luck with that. If they've never been entered into the NFA registry, I don't think they can do anything with them but destroy them.

Thoughts?
 
They'll probably go to a museum if they are in good condition. The Destructive Devices could be sold to a private civilian, if they were allowed to be registered.
 
Brings up an interesting hypothetical: you come across this on a walk in the woods - what do you do?
 
if you keep them and are discovered doing so... FEDERAL OFFENSE.. there is nothing to do (legally) but destroy them.. it is rediculous... The ATF does not budge on this.. not even for what should be national treasures.... it just isnt right...
 
Actually these weapons still belong to uncle sam. Every weapon in italian, japanese, and german military posession became property of the winning governments. Since the items were brought into america, these weapons can only be categorized as
"stolen property of the US Gov".

however what will happen is what is common for old guns found in odd places. ATF cutting torch crews.
 
Chances are some guy found his father's or grandfather's stash when they were cleaning out his things, realized what type of trouble they meant, and dumped them. You're seeing that more and more as a lot of the older veterans are dying off. Dad or granddad did something when he was but a naive youth, stashed it away, and forgot about it. Then his family has a very rude surprise when they're going through his things.
 
Actually these weapons still belong to uncle sam. Every weapon in italian, japanese, and german military posession became property of the winning governments

I understand your legal argument, but I disagree.

Even if all war material of a defeated nation becomes property of the winning government, there is nothing that prevents that government from transfering title.

Lots of vet bring backs have military issued "capture papers" authorizing the vet to bring the weapon back to the states. Some of these were even issued before the war ended.

Now, over 60 years later, it would be hard to prove that any specific Axis power weapon was "smuggled" home as opposed to being brought back legitimately by a vet with authorization to do so.

Don't forget that a huge amount of ex-Axis small arms were legally imported by various importers and sold to civilian purchasers in the U.S. This even includes Machine Guns which were legal if DEWATTED to the standards of the time. (They may have become illegal later if not registered when the requirements changed, but that's a different issue).

And, don't forget that import marks were not required before 1968. So, between "papered" bring backs and legal imports without import marks, how could the govt even try to prove that any specific weapon was brought into the country illegally and should still be considered U.S. government property as "spoils from a conquered military."
 
Some bringbacks were "demilled" by removing parts and then simply mailed back. Such is the case for my Arisaka rifle, which my grandfather mailed back from Okinawa. A few years ago I sourced the missing parts (bolt back, striker, and striker spring) and restored it to operational condition. It's been stored in Arizona the whole time, so there's literally no rust. So I now have a Type 99 that's like it came out of a time warp, looks about the same as it did when my late grandfather found it.
 
Wow, wish my dad had the presence of mind to protect the 'family Arisaka'. I'll have to de-rust it one of these days.
 
"an Italian machine gun" I have inside information on this. On functional tests, the Italian gun immediately started leaking oil and broke down.
 
"Can you imagine if these had gotten into the wrong hands?" Hyche said.
The wrong hands would have said, "where the hell am I going to get ammo for these'', and when he finds it, "HOW MUCH????"
 
Wow, wish my dad had the presence of mind to protect the 'family Arisaka'. I'll have to de-rust it one of these days.

We have had the pleasure of doing just that, a word of advice, start working on your biceps and pecks now!
You are gonna need it. LOL
 
So in the hypothetical situation of a family member passing away and then the surviving family members discovered WWII era weapons...they (the guns) would be destroyed by the BATFE? Does that include the non-automatic firearms as well? If so, can the family members turn in the firearms without getting in trouble? This hasn't happened to me nor will it...I'm just curious to know what the law says.
 
I worked part time in a gun shop for a couple of years. Twice I had guys come in and (strongly) hint that they had WW II full auto weapons that were part of an estate. Wanted to get rid of them cheap.

Trust me. You want no part of that. Why would you want to? Can't shoot 'em. Can't show anybody. Risk years in a Federal Prison for that? I don't think so.
 
Sounds to me like someone lost these guns in a "tragic boating accident". My condolances to the owner of these guns.
Rmfcasey
 
Yeah, they will likely destroy them, regardless of their historical value. But, if they found in an old garage in the mid-west a car that belonged to Clyde Barrow, they'd save it and put it in a musum and then advertise it all other the country.
 
..darn

all i ever get is trouts.

An it´s none of them Japanese Full Auto Trouts!
 
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