Xtreme 9mm 124gr FMJ frustration

[LeftyTSGC]

I would like to know if anyone else has had an issue with the diameter of the Xtreme 124gr FMJ bullets?

I use Xtreme 124gr HP for target practice and have reloaded thousands of them with no issue.

I recently bought 1k of their new 124gr FMJ. I reloaded them and did not immediately have any issues. I noticed after one shot, (large recoil and pop) that the bullets were being setback, and that I could easily push in the bullet with my thumb with little pressure. So.. I went back home to relook my procedures, did not notice any thing different or out of place.

I then took out my calipers and measured the diameter of the bullets. The caliper diameter was showing .3525 on some and .353 on others. I contacted Xtreme and they immediately replied and asked me to use a micrometer and let them know what i found.

I did get a micrometer and measured .3535 on most and .354 on some, so just .001 difference than the calipers. So i sent the data to Xtreme and have not of yet heard a reply. I sent the original email on 5 Aug.

Things i learned, micrometer is more precise than calipers, not all bullets are .355. I did find some WIN brass with thicker casing and noticed that they will work on some of the bullets.

I have enclosed pictures of the caliper measurement and micrometer of the same bullets FMJ plus the comparison to the HP.

All i wanted to know from Xtreme was, is this the normal size of their bullets or a mistake. They have not answered. I have called and emailed a number of times.

I will still use their 124gr HP as they are great, but i will no longer use their FMJ. I still have a box of 500 i will sell or give away. Any one else have like experience? With any bullet?

leftyTSGC

 

[1KPerDay]

Ugh... I imagine they'll want them back and happily give you a refund or swap out for plated 124s (which I have shot about 10K of).

 

[Reefinmike]

Try to contact them again. They should refund you your money.

 

[Walkalong]

Hopefully they will make it right. Those are very poor.

And like you, I really like their plated 124 Gr HP.

 

[Load Master]

Yeah, I expect if you contact them they will make good. If not, let us know. I ran into a similar issue with some pulled 45 acp bullets. Bottomline, I check any newly ordered bullets for proper diameter before loading.

 

[7mmb]

The only bullet I load in 9mm anymore is Xtreme's plated 124gr RN. I just miked 10 of them and they all measured right on .355". Xtreme only recently started making jacketed bullets in 9mm. Looks like they still have some bugs to work out with their equipment and manufacturing process. Their plated bullets sure shoot good though.

They've always done right by me. I bet they take care of you too, especially if you trade them back for their plated bullets.

 

[longdayjake]

Actually, they've been making them for quite a while now. They were loading them into freedom munitions ammo until recently. Their manufacturing of FMJ is about two blocks from where me make our FMJ.

 

[alexcue]

I got 1000 of them that I haven't opened up during there last sale. Will check them this evening. Thanks for heads up.

 

[higgite]

I’m asking this out of ignorance, not to be smart alecky, but why all the concern? OP’s bullets are well within SAAMI spec of .3555-.0030. I just bought some Xtreme 124 gr FMJs to try out and they measure a consistent .3545”. That is less than the plated bullets that I have been loading, so I’m thinking I may have to turn my taper crimp die down a smidgen, but so what? Should I truly be concerned that the bullets are inferior or is it a matter of anything less than perfect isn’t acceptable, even in a cheap bullet? What am I missing?

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

I’m asking this out of ignorance, not to be smart alecky, but why all the concern? OP’s bullets are well within SAAMI spec of .3555-.0030. I just bought some Xtreme 124 gr FMJs to try out and they measure a consistent .3545”. That is less than the plated bullets that I have been loading, so I’m thinking I may have to turn my taper crimp die down a smidgen, but so what? Should I truly be concerned that the bullets are inferior or is it a matter of anything less than perfect isn’t acceptable, even in a cheap bullet? What am I missing?

I may be mistaken, but I believe the SAAMI dimension is for the case throat ID, not the bullet.

Neck tension is not set by the crimp but by the case throat diameter prior to bullet insertion, and with FMJ bullets particularly, increasing the crimp does little or nothing to improve the retention of the bullet in the case.

If you don't have sufficient neck tension, you can chuck the expansion plug in a lathe or drill and use sandpaper to reduce the diameter by a thousandth or so to increase the interference.

Further, depending on your barrel diameter, the smaller diameter may make a difference. With plated bullets in my Taurus PT99, bullets less than .3550 have terrible accuracy, but as soon as the bullet diameter increases to at least .3550 the groups tighten right up.

 

[higgite]

I may be mistaken, but I believe the SAAMI dimension is for the case throat ID, not the bullet.
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Further, depending on your barrel diameter, the smaller diameter may make a difference. With plated bullets in my Taurus PT99, bullets less than .3550 have terrible accuracy, but as soon as the bullet diameter increases to at least .3550 the groups tighten right up.

The SAAMI dwg that I looked at clearly indicates bullet size of .3555-.0030.
http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Pistol/9mm Luger - 9mm Luger +P.pdf

I agree that bullet diameter can certainly affect accuracy, but if a particular bullet isn't accurate in a particular pistol, I don't believe that's the bullet manufacturer's fault as long as their product meets industry standards. I consider finding an accurate bullet akin to finding an accurate powder charge. If one doesn't work, try another. ymmv

Maybe my original question should have been... is a sub-.355" diameter bullet automatically bad for a 9mm load or should the judgement be based on performance?

 

[2011redrider]

I would think they would exchange them including the shipping. They are sold as being .355 not within SAAMI Bullet Spec of +/- .030? Havent bought any extremes in 3 yrs since I went to RMR but, im sure they will make it right. Bought some pulls from American Reloading that were .004 under and they are replacing them.

 

[ericuda]

Odd, when they changd shipping from usps to ups I received a personal call after I ordered. With the sales they have, probably busy. Give another try, I bet they treat you good and fix the issue.

 

[LeftyTSGC]

I finally got a hold of the Xtreme office today. Along with my measurements and pictures they are asking me to send in a few of the bullets for their investigation.

My concern for the .3535 - .3540. diameter is that i was not getting any neck tension on my reloads. I had a couple of rounds with setback issues the i noticed after the first shot. More of a safety concern for me than accuracy, but i have not been able to check accuracy yet. As i mentioned in my original post, i could push in the bullets with light pressure.

I was able to find some WIN brass that seemed to worked with the .354 diameter bullets. WIN brass does have a thicker case wall. All i am asking Xtreme to do, is to tell me if this diameter that i see is normal or a mistake. If it is normal i will not purchase them any more since they do not meet my needs.

All other bullets that i have received from Xtreme, Berrys, RMR, MG have been .355.

Lefty TSGC

 

[just for fun]

YES!! Issue was with 357Sig 124grain bullets from extreme. was having set back problems with 2-5 rounds per 50! Posted the same question you asked and the experts came out of the woodwork! Your loading it all wrong, do it like this and every round will be perfect-like mine. Second (of MANY)suggestions, would seem that you haven't been reloading very long! Send everything to me before you hurt yourself!
Changed up to Montana Gold bullets and all problems went away. Either that or the reloading fairy came during the night and fixed all my inabilities!

 

[ReloaderFred]

When you throw a question out to a bunch of faceless, anonymous strangers, the answers you get back are sometimes worth what you pay for them........ Most times, the answers are just a WAG, without any basis in actual knowledge of the subject at hand.

In my experience, the best answers are usually obtained from the company who made the product.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[mdi]

If the bullets are advertised as 9mm firearm bullets (which are nominally .355"), they should measure .355" minimum. If the OP can't use them because of loose neck tension resulting from a .3535" diameter bullets, then they cannot be safely used and the manufacturer should make it right...

Technically 9mm is .3543" but I have never heard of a "normal" manufactured 9mm bullet less than .355"

 

[Walkalong]

Maybe my original question should have been... is a sub-.355" diameter bullet automatically bad for a 9mm load or should the judgement be based on performance?

In my experience (And opinion), it is a red flag. I want .355 or better. Many 9MM barrels are over .355. In general, fatter is better than skinny.

 

[hdwhit]

I check any newly ordered bullets for proper diameter before loading.

Good advice.

I spot check the diameter every time I open a new box of bullets that I get from a known manufacturer (Hornady, Sierra, etc.), but when I'm buying pulled bullets, I check a fairly large sample to make sure they are consistent. I've never seen anything like the OP has in this case, but I have had bullets advertised as .355 turn out to be .3555 or .356.

 

[LeftyTSGC]

Received a reply from Xtreme bullets today on my 124gn FMJ issue. You can read my posts and see my measurements above. I sent in a handful of bullets to them for measurement and here is there reply.

"All bullets mic out at .3545-.3552. All within saami specs."

Unfortunately that will not do it for me, as I continue to have setback issues when using this bullet. As I have stated I was able to load some when specifically using WIN brass, or any thick wall brass. But will not use them anymore.:banghead:

I still use their 124gn HP they all measure at .3555 for me and work great as a target round.

Case closed: off to find another FMJ.

LeftyTSGC

 

[LiveLife]

Maybe my original question should have been... is a sub-.355" diameter bullet automatically bad for a 9mm load or should the judgement be based on performance?

In my experience (And opinion), it is a red flag. I want .355 or better. Many 9MM barrels are over .355. In general, fatter is better than skinny.

Received a reply from Xtreme bullets today on my 124gn FMJ issue.

"All bullets mic out at .3545-.3552. All within saami specs."

Unfortunately that will not do it for me, as I continue to have setback issues when using this bullet. As I have stated I was able to load some when specifically using WIN brass, or any thick wall brass. But will not use them anymore.

Case closed: off to find another FMJ

Getting bullet setback, especially for 9mm with small internal case volume, is very bad as it can spike chamber pressures way past SAAMI max pressures.

As reloaders, we must factor in different reloading variables to ensure we are producing safe below published max chamber pressure rounds. Many members posted they even get bullet setback issues with .355" sized bullets which likely results from using mixed range brass with different number of firings and varying degrees of work hardened brass that may experience brass spring back instead of being malleable resulting in decreased neck tension.

For these reasons, I now test neck tension by measuring bullet setback after feeding dummy test rounds (no powder/no primer) from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it as bullet slamming into the feed ramp better duplicates the forces of slide cycling during firing than us pushing the bullet against the bench.

For me, bullet setback of a few thousandths is acceptable but if bullet setback is more than .005", I investigate to find out the cause. If you are getting significant bullet setback with .355" sized bullets and the resizing die is properly adjusted (bottom of die just kissing the top of shell holder/plate with no daylight), it may be the condition of brass/thickness of case wall and you may need larger sized bullets.

I check any newly ordered bullets for proper diameter before loading.

Good advice.

I spot check the diameter every time I open a new box of bullets that I get from a known manufacturer (Hornady, Sierra, etc.), but when I'm buying pulled bullets, I check a fairly large sample to make sure they are consistent. I've never seen anything like the OP has in this case, but I have had bullets advertised as .355 turn out to be .3555 or .356.

I want .355 or better. Many 9MM barrels are over .355. In general, fatter is better than skinny.

Several years back, Jay Phillips who is no longer with Berry's MFG posted they size their 9mm bullets slightly larger around .3555" and advertise them as .356" because slight larger sizing improved accuracy.

Most factory barrels have larger than .355"-.356"+ groove diameters and even my match KKM/Lone Wolf barrels measure .355"-.356" groove-to-groove and larger sized barrels can benefit from larger sized bullets.

Most jacketed/plated bullet manufacturers advertise sizing of 9mm bullets as .355".

X-Treme used to offer different sizing for 9mm bullets but now only offer .356"/.357" sizing for 147 gr bullets and all 115/124 gr bullets are advertised as .355".

Berry's advertises 9mm bullet sizing as .356"

RMR sizes their in-house 115 gr FMJ at .3555"+ (124 gr FMJ soon), 100/115 gr Hardcore Match plated at .356", 124 gr at .3565", 147 gr at .357".

FYI, I will be measuring bullet dimension/weight variance in the "Plated bullet differences - Mythbusting ..." thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10348034#post10348034

 

[dwstone1227]

I am a rookie reloader, and at the expense how showing my stupidity, here goes. I reload using all Hornady equipment. I use a Hornady Lock and Load and Hornady Custom Die (nitride) 3 die set. I have successfully reloaded Hornady, Speer and Berry. All of my 9 mm bullets to date have been 124 grain. All have been 124 grain. I have now reloaded and shot over 5,000 rounds. All was going well for me until I purchased 1,000 bullets (9mm, 124 grain) from a new vendor. I do not want to mention the company's name as I don't believe that would contribute to this discussion in a positive manner. As an example, I had one reloaded bullet that I could freely move the bullet back and forth freely with my fingers. I recrimped this particular bullet 10 times in Station #5. I absolutely could not get these 'different' bullets to seat. I pulled the bullet, measured the cartridge, compared it to other reloaded cartridges, but nothing seemed out of order. I measured a number of the bullets from this manufacturer and all were fairly consistent and within SAMMI specifications. I did internet searches on key words like: 9 mm crimp, taper, etc. I was at the point of throwing away over 900 bullets from this manufacturer as I could not get these particular bullets to seat.

Then I decided to start all over with my set up. I replayed the Hornady DVD on how to set up the entire system. I started at Station #1, deprimer and resize die. To make an already long story shorter, Station #1 (resize and deprim) was my problem. Station #1, my resizing die, was not adjusted down to the point where it was close enough to the shell plate. Once I readjusted the resizing die down to where it came close, but not quite touching the shellplate, my taper crimping problems came to an end.

Take a very good look at your Number 1 resizing station die and make sure it fully engages the entire cartridge. My problem was not the bullet size. It was not the taper crimping Station #5. My problem with the bullets was at Station #1.

 

[LiveLife]

As an example, I had one reloaded bullet that I could freely move the bullet back and forth freely with my fingers.

... Station #1 ... was my problem ... resizing die, was not adjusted down to the point where it was close enough to the shell plate.

Very good. I usually adjust my resizing die until I can't see daylight between the bottom of die and top of shell holder/plate. If I feel additional resistance when resizing a case, I will check to see if bottom of die is just kissing the top of shell holder/plate. If not, I will rotate the case 90 degrees to see if it will full-length resize. If it won't, it gets tossed in the recyle bin as I deem the case base too far expanded (brass thinned).

I continue to have setback issues when using this bullet. As I have stated I was able to load some when specifically using WIN brass, or any thick wall brass.

Knowing OP, I don't think lack of resizing is the issue but the sizing of the bullet.

I have used Winchester and Montana Gold jacketed bullets sized .355" for decades without issues and with a particular batch of same headstamp brass, the loaded round would allow the bullet to fall inside the case (and I use very little taper crimp of .377" for .355" sized bullets). After checking the resizing and taper crimp dies, it turned out to be thinner walled brass as I did not have the same problem with other headstamp cases.

I recrimped this particular bullet 10 times in Station #5.

Actually, taper crimp does not increase neck tension rather too much taper crimp can decrease neck tension from brass spring back away from squished bullet which results in bullet setback.

As you found out, neck tension comes from properly resized case.

 

[kitsapshooter]

Did you try decreasing the flaring of the case mouth?