You are not a gunsmith (rant)

[expvideo]

OK, so having had only 3 guns that needed a gunsmith, 1 of which found one, I have decided that too many people apply the title to themselves. Of course these unofficial gunsmiths can work on AR-15s and 1911s, but if you found the strange bug crawling up your ass to buy something else, and should that something else ever need to be worked on, you might be hard pressed to find someone able to do the job out in my neck of the woods.

We have several gun shops, some of them fairly large, and at each of these shops there is a resident "gunsmith", or what I like to reffer to as the most competent idiot that knows what a barrel wrench is. The job of this "gunsmith" is to assemble AR-15s to the customer's specs and install free-float tubes.

So I wanted to get a single action revolver fixed. There was one gunsmith in all of WA that I could find that had any idea what to do. He did a great job. Of course he is the only gun smith I use anymore, but before I found him, I had a few other problems and they led to my eventual dislike of the "most competent idiot that knows what a barrel wrench is" types. I had a Savage pump shotgun that was in pieces. I wanted it put together into one piece. I got so tired of trying to find a gunsmith that could do this, that I just learned how to do it myself and put the damn thing together. But here's the real gem.. it deserves its own paragraph.

I bought an AK. It had an Arsenal trigger group. I wanted to give it a paint job (moly resin, not paint, don't worry), but the selector wouldn't clear the sear, so I couldn't remove the trigger group (FCG, for you technical types). I took the gun back to the shop that I bought it from, where they claimed it had been assembled from a kit. As it turns out, it wasn't actually assembled there, but was assembled by a guy they know who isn't doing any more AKs. So I asked them if the resident "gunsmith" could help me to take a look at this and get the FCG out. Well I confused about every person behind that counter with this request and when they finally got the "gunsmith" to take a look, he told me that he couldn't work on such an exotic firearm as an AK, and if I had an AR-15 he might be able to help me.

I took it to a different gun shop and talked to a guy I knew. He popped it out in about 5 seconds, and showed me how I could do the same.

Anyway, I've had just about enough of these gunshop people that think they are gunsmiths just because they can build an AR-15. Of course you can build an AR-15, it's practically a lego set! Any idiot can build an AR-15. I can build an AR-15. In fact, I can apparently build a Savage shotgun, but that doesn't make me a gunsmith. I'm getting a little fed up with people applying this title to themselves just because they can work on the big 3 (ARs, 1911s, Glocks).

/rant

And since a good gunsmith is hard to find, I would like to extend some praise to DJs Gun and Loan in Bothell, WA. Their gunsmith is an actual gunsmith and he does great work.

 

[rbernie]

To add to this; gunsmithing is a very broad subject. I know a guy who can build Remington 700s all day long, but I'm not sure that I'd ask him to repair an out-of-time Colt Python. I know other guys who can bolt together an AR and even work on an AK, but who should never be trusted to install a bead on a non-vent rib shotgun barrel or *properly* fit a 1911 barrel.

To expect a single gunsmith to be an expert at all things gun-related is somewhat optimistic, and I have found that it pays to ask around for specific areas of expertise in a gunsmith.

 

[BHP FAN]

You're right,and that's why I work on most of my own stuff,but when I get stuck,or its a safety issue [like trigger /sear engagement] or a gun I'm not familiar with,I saddle up to Grundman's in Rio Dell.

 

[expvideo]

To expect a single gunsmith to be an expert at all things gun-related is somewhat optimistic, and I have found that it pays to ask around for specific areas of expertise in a gunsmith.

I agree, but calling yourself a gunsmith just because you can put together an AR-15 is like calling yourself a priest just because you've read part of the bible.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

They're not necessarily idiots, just not experienced in many different types of guns. You just have to find a smith who knows your type of gun that has the problem, and pay accordingly for his/her knowledge.

P.S. I'm no gunsmith, but I learned the hard way how to disassemble and re-assemble a Savage 24F trigger/innards, and it was much more difficult than I might have thought. So now I'm probably "qualifed" to work on the trigger of Savage 24fs and a few other specific issues with specific guns, but not nearly enough other types to call myself a gunsmith (nor nearly enough tools) - I guess the question is, when is it proper to call oneself a gunsmith, in terms of both tools and skills? - I don't know the answer. With the right tools, I can figure out darn near anything by studying and looking at books, but I'd have to charge way more than the market would bear for my time in so figuring, unless I wanted to establish myself as a competent enough smith to make a living at it, in which case, I'd take the job, charge a "normal' fee, and take the "loss" in terms of my time, and chalk it up to a new skill learned that will pay off in the future (a cost of doing business).

PPS. If you've never dealt with a gunsmith, or if you have, let me offer a tip: you should always, always (IMO) ask for a SPECIFIC FINISH DATE, at which time the work will be completed and you have your gun back, and make it clear that time is of the essence of your deal. If you don't, what is seemingly a good fee will turn out to be a lousy one when the gunsmith has your gun or gun part for 6 months, a year, 18 months or more (yes, this HAS happened), when you expected 3 days, 3 weeks, or possibly 3 months. Make it abundantly clear what the expected completion time is BEFORE leaving your job with the smith, as this will help save frustration by both you and the smith, but especially you. If that means going to the next smith who WILL give a promised finish date, but has a higher fee, then do it - it's well worth the extra money for a good smith who will promise a finish date (and keep it or lower the fee if it's not kept).

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Sooo, a cardiologist can't call himself a "doctor" because he can't cure cancer...or remove warts...or inflate busoms...

 

[expvideo]

I guess the question is, when is it proper to call oneself a gunsmith - I don't know the answer.

I don't know either. I always thought that there was some kind of qualification or licensing to be a gunsmith. I guess I could be wrong. Still, an AK is only slightly more complicated than a board with a nail in it, so if you can't figure out how to take one of those apart, I would be careful throwing the term "gunsmith" around to describe yourself.

Of course you don't have to know the inner workings of such an "exotic" weapon, but still I would think that you would have to know more than how to field strip your pistol to consider yourself a gunsmith. Knowing how to build an AR does not make you a gunsmith. That is about all my point is. If you disagree with this, then I guess we're not going to convince eachother of anything.

There is a big difference between knowing how an AR works and being a cardiologist.

 

[Macmac]

Ha Ha ha.... I am no gunsmith, but far too many guys are willing to call themselves one.

On the other hand folks i 'know' often bring a gun to me to fix.. This will get just about any odd ball gun on my bench, and I fiddle and wiggle things untill I understand each part.

Around here there is one guy who can help over a wide spectrum, and he goes by Old Fuff, no typo. About a year ago he helped me understand a few things I needed to know about a colt clone in 1858. Once all the talk stopped on "OH you can't" Old Fuff told me exactly what I needed to know to ADD steel to a worn hammer cam, and the fine bits on the sear spring.

Long before that, a man brought me a box of parts said to be a Winchester that was in 30-06 and a semi auto. It has been far to long to recall the model.

Interstingly there was a big honkin cap lock for a civil war musket in this box as well as who knows what'sit parts from assorted other guns..

Not one part was still held to any other part either, and in time with lots of fiddle, and wiggle one day came where that semi action was tied to a tire in a gravel pit, mostly because the box still contained about 150 other parts..

That action went bang,bang, bang, bang, bang, just like clock work, so the stock was installed.

I get lots of frizzens from flinters to harden again, and sometimes re-form the V type main springs, which lead to a neat fix on a 16 ga shot gun, and side by side that had 2 triggers but fired both barrels pulling either one.

It was deemed junk by the owner, a friend of mine, and pretty much he had wanted it for his 2 sons to hunt with. But he gave the gun to me to keep, and so I set it aside until a rainy day came along and I was board.

I fixed that one too, and returned it to my friend after i had shot several boxes of 16's thru it and ALL of them went off as expected. I told him the gun was son safe to use too.. He smiled a lot..

But still while I can see, and run a file, weld a bit, I am no gunsmith.

I don't have a total and complete understanding, which is critical to me as a part of being a real smith.

 

[ants]

I'm not a gunsmith. I don't even know one. I'm not defending gunsmiths.


But the other side of the coin? Perhaps the competent gunsmith is busy at his bench and someone enters the shop. Gunsmith says to himself:

Oh boy, here comes another idiot with a messed up [AK, old shotgun, etc.] who took it half apart himself and now it's screwed up, and he expects me to fix it for him cheap. Or free. So what do I say to him?
"It's too exotic. It's too old. I don't know how to work on it."

Then the idiot goes away so the gunsmith can go back to work. Well, that was easy.


I truly mean no offense to anyone. I just was daydreaming that there must be another side to the coin.

 

[expvideo]

I think that most people that can tinker with guns fall under 3 catagories:

Hobbyist:
Likes to tinker with guns, but makes no claim to be a real gunsmith. Doesn't know everything about guns, but can figure most things out by fiddling with them.

Gun Tech:
Works at a gun shop. Assembles AR-15s and might know how to put a 1911 together. Generally proudly proclaims that he is a gunsmith.

Gunsmith:
Could actually build a gun from scratch. Knows how to rechamber a barrel, thread a barrel, shorten and recrown a barrel, polish a trigger group, etc. This person is actually a gunsmith and you have to pay for his time.


My problem is the gun tech being considered a gunsmith. He isn't. He's a tech. That's it.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

The field of "gunsmithing" is so broad that a "Master gunsmith",that is, one who can do anything involved with guns is a VERY rare bird indeed. In gunsmithing, as with the medical and automotive fields,specializing is the name of the game.

 

[expvideo]

The field of "gunsmithing" is so broad that a "Master gunsmith",that is, one who can do anything involved with guns is a VERY rare bird indeed. In gunsmithing, as with the medical and automotive fields,specializing is the name of the game.

Sure, but I wouldn't call knowing how to assemble an AR-15 a specialized gunsmith. Any idiot with access to youtube and a torque wrench can assemble an AR-15 in less than an hour. It's a freaking lego set. That does not make a person a gunsmith. Not even a gunsmith with only one area of expertise.

eta:
an armorer maybe, but not a gunsmith.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

We're pretty fortunate here in this city of 100,000. We have:

Bill's Gun Shop: Bill can do about anything, and has. He can scratch build a bolt action or single shot rifle for professional hunters and he does a bang up color case hardening job. He also restores or fixes broken junk to help pay the bills.

John is a 1911 expert, but also builds some fine ARs for competition and some good bolt action hunting rifles.

Bruce builds 1000 yard benchrest guns, and also competes.

Lee (http://www.insightshootingsystemsinc.com/) builds custom AR uppers in about any configuration.

And then there's Jack, who at 70 has been trying to retire for years. The other gunsmiths won't let him because he does hot blue jobs for most of them. He can fix literally everything, and has. Example; a while back, I took him an old Springfield single shot 22 with a botched firing pin job from years ago. He made the firing pin, which fits perfectly, in three days and charged me $10. He built me a custom 25-06 on a new Springfield 1903 action back in the '80s, and he has fixed any broken guns I've had over the last 25 years or so. In addition, he has repaired an old fishing reel I had, and rebuilt engraving spindles for me (he charges $60, the pros charge $275).

 

[expvideo]

Larry Ashcraft,
You are fortunate to know so many competent gunsmiths. I don't think I would consider building AR uppers gunsmithing as much as gun tech-ing, though. Still, I wish I had as many good and reputable gunsmiths in my area.

 

[Animal Mother]

A true gunsmith is as rare as hen's teeth and as good as gold.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Nowadays, the title of "gunsmith" is about as common as "graphic designer". Every idiot with a computer and a pirated copy of the Adobe suite calls themselves a "graphic designer". However, finding a real one with real experience and credentials is very hard to do. It is the same with gunsmiths... I only know of 2-3 in the entire Salt Lake metro area that qualify.

 

[expvideo]

dictionary.com

gun·smith (gŭn'smĭth') Pronunciation Key
n. One that makes or repairs firearms.

Changing a barrel on an AR-15 does not make a person a gunsmith. It makes them a gun tech. If you can't make or repair a firearm, you should not be calling yourself a gunsmith. That is the point of my rant. I don't care if you can only make or repair a Marlin 22 rifle and nothing else, but if all you do is assemble parts, you are NOT a gunsmith.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

"if all you do is assemble parts, you are NOT a gunsmith." AMEN!
__________________

 

[paintballdude902]

we have 2 smiths here in town

1 is great he has been shooting all his life, and working on guns just as long. he regualarly teaches classes on shooting and safety and ccw. great guy id let him work on anything i had

2 this guy is.....wow hes smart knows what hes doing but a pita i got an enfield from ff&f and took it to him to have the head space check he actually had the balls to tell me "your just some kid you arent deserving of a fine weapon like this, i almost hope you screw it up" i began to walk out the door then and he said come back hed do it for free. he did but then tried to charge me for wear and tear on his head space guage i walked out the door

 

[R.W.Dale]

Nice rant, If a person orders a bunch of new engine parts from Summit and builds a motor from scratch that doesn't make them an Engine Machinist. The same applies to yahoos behind the counter putting AR15's together from a mail order caltalogue

apparently it's a nice time of year for rants

 

[Titan6]

Larry,
That sounds like every town of any size I have ever lived in. Since I move often finding ''Jack'' in every town is a real challenge and then he usually has a bad heart/ kidney/ sick wife.... Keeping him alive and healthy long enough

 

[WardenWolf]

I have a sig I use on other sites:

Tinkerer's Commandment #1: Thou shalt not play at any profession whose name ends in the word "Smith".

Be it gunsmith or airsmith, messing around with high-pressure stuff that you aren't qualified to work on is likely to get someone killed.

 

[JR47]

If anyone can assemble an AR, and an AK is about as complicated as a board and nail, fix it yourself. After all, it doesn't require a gunsmith to do it.

There are no licensing requirement s for gunsmithing. However, a man who builds single-action revolvers won't necessarily be the one to assemble your pump-action shotgun. I wouldn't ask someone who makes a living turning 1911A1s into perfect weapons to re-build my old side by side shotgun, either.

There are seve3ral hundreds of years worth of makes and models of guns out there. NOBODY can fix them all, or even try. Instead of wandering from shop to shop, and then being insulted when the gunsmith says no, look into the various gunsmiths in the area on-line, and then talk to them about the make and model that you need worked on.

Do you really think that a Master mechanic working at a Cadillac dealership will want to fool with your Yugo?

 

[WardenWolf]

Many gunsmiths have the attitude that they're "too good" to work on a gun like an AK. Or they don't like "ugly" Eastern guns. It's an attitude problem.

 

[zammyman]

The best gunsmiths in the world are ones who look you straight in the eye and say "sorry I don't know how to do that." At least then they don't learn on others guns!