You are not a gunsmith (rant)

[WardenWolf]

If someone tells me they have a problem with something, I'll say, "I'll take a look at it." I'm very mechanically and technically inclined, and more often than not I'm able to find the problem. I'm never going to do something irreversible, though. In which case, I'll tell the person, "I can't fix it, but here's the problem. See if you can find someone who's qualified to work on it. Tell him the problem is this. . ."

 

[expvideo]

If anyone can assemble an AR, and an AK is about as complicated as a board and nail, fix it yourself. After all, it doesn't require a gunsmith to do it.

There are no licensing requirement s for gunsmithing. However, a man who builds single-action revolvers won't necessarily be the one to assemble your pump-action shotgun. I wouldn't ask someone who makes a living turning 1911A1s into perfect weapons to re-build my old side by side shotgun, either.

There are seve3ral hundreds of years worth of makes and models of guns out there. NOBODY can fix them all, or even try. Instead of wandering from shop to shop, and then being insulted when the gunsmith says no, look into the various gunsmiths in the area on-line, and then talk to them about the make and model that you need worked on.

Do you really think that a Master mechanic working at a Cadillac dealership will want to fool with your Yugo?

You've obviously misunderstood my post. I don't expect a gunsmith to understand every gun. I expect a gunsmith to build and repair firearms. I don't care if the only firearm that the gunsmith repairs or builds is a Marlin 22 single shot. It doesn't matter. The point is that if he can't build and/or repair a firearm, he isn't a gunsmith and shouldn't be calling himself that. Assembling parts, while it is popularly reffered to as building, is assembling parts. If you can't manufacture or repair a firearm, you are not a gunsmith.

 

[possom813]

Everyone has probably read a gripe about my local gunshop being overpriced on just about everything and the owner is cheap on trading in. He's out to profit as much as possible no matter what on trades.

But the one good thing about him is I can take any broken firearm to him and he can fix it. He's an excellent gunsmith that knows his stuff. As long as you're willing to pay his price(which is subject to change) he will repair any gun you own.

In the end, heckuva gunsmith, crappy businessman.

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

OK, we have the term "Mall Ninja" for the wannabe operator, Now we need a moniker for the wannabe 'smith.

I do think the term is loosely applied and is subject to interpretation by others, but I would think someone who has years of experience in a tool and die shop, machine shop, mechanical engineering degree and/ or welding profiency could "wing it"................ Just need to apply the necessary book information to the applicable firearm. After all, it is just a tool (or machine).

There are places to find such information, for a price .........

 

[orchidhunter]

Wannabe a certified gunsmith? Send me $25.00(US) and I will send you a very nice certificate, suitable to frame. orchidhunter

 

[JR47]

You've obviously misunderstood my post. I don't expect a gunsmith to understand every gun. I expect a gunsmith to build and repair firearms. I don't care if the only firearm that the gunsmith repairs or builds is a Marlin 22 single shot. It doesn't matter. The point is that if he can't build and/or repair a firearm, he isn't a gunsmith and shouldn't be calling himself that. Assembling parts, while it is popularly reffered to as building, is assembling parts. If you can't manufacture or repair a firearm, you are not a gunsmith.

That's your definition. Under that definition, MOST of the men, and some women who build Tactical Rifles, or even Custom rifles, aren't gunsmiths, sir. They use the Remington 700 action, suitably modified, a custom barrel, modified to fit, and various parts and pieces, either Remington, or from other small manufacturers, to "assemble" the rifle. Very few gunsmiths make their own actions today, or their own barrels, bolts, or even stocks. You'll be hard pressed to find a pistolsmith making their own pistols from the frame up, as well.

Yet, at the end of your statement you say that "if you can't manufacture or repair a firearm, you are not a gunsmith." There's quite a difference between those two levels.

While most gunsmith's of any note are also FFL holders, they are 01s, not 02s, manufacturers. The price of admission to that level is steep, and the various licenses for business, and record keeping, prevent all but the most successful from ever taking that step.

Not every gunsmith is a Yost, or a Clark. Most are small-town businessmen, with limited exposure to all that many guns. Their living is mostly from mounting scopes, cleaning guns, and the occasional part replacement. Many have no interest in enlarging that particular spot, as they are comfortable there.

Deciding that not wanting to work on your particular problem gun is a reflection on their abilities, is just as wrong as what you accuse them of being. It's more a reflection of their attitude. Of which, it appears, there's plenty to go around.

Pick up your bag of parts, and head out the door, remembering this for the future. They didn't get your business, or your money. At least they were honest enough to tell you up front that they wouldn't work on the gun. Too many people would have gouged you for sub-optimal work.

 

[expvideo]

OK, we have the term "Mall Ninja" for the wannabe operator, Now we need a moniker for the wannabe 'smith.

hmmm... Nothing comes to mind. These are the guys that are really salesmen who only want to sell/work on guns that they own themselves... I guess something involving the torque wrench, since knowing how to torque an AR barrel is the holy grail to these people.

 

[expvideo]

That's your definition. Under that definition, MOST of the men, and some women who build Tactical Rifles, or even Custom rifles, aren't gunsmiths, sir. They use the Remington 700 action, suitably modified, a custom barrel, modified to fit, and various parts and pieces, either Remington, or from other small manufacturers, to "assemble" the rifle. Very few gunsmiths make their own actions today, or their own barrels, bolts, or even stocks. You'll be hard pressed to find a pistolsmith making their own pistols from the frame up, as well.

Yet, at the end of your statement you say that "if you can't manufacture or repair a firearm, you are not a gunsmith." There's quite a difference between those two levels.

While most gunsmith's of any note are also FFL holders, they are 01s, not 02s, manufacturers. The price of admission to that level is steep, and the various licenses for business, and record keeping, prevent all but the most successful from ever taking that step.

Not every gunsmith is a Yost, or a Clark. Most are small-town businessmen, with limited exposure to all that many guns. Their living is mostly from mounting scopes, cleaning guns, and the occasional part replacement. Many have no interest in enlarging that particular spot, as they are comfortable there.

Deciding that not wanting to work on your particular problem gun is a reflection on their abilities, is just as wrong as what you accuse them of being. It's more a reflection of their attitude. Of which, it appears, there's plenty to go around.

Pick up your bag of parts, and head out the door, remembering this for the future. They didn't get your business, or your money. At least they were honest enough to tell you up front that they wouldn't work on the gun. Too many people would have gouged you for sub-optimal work.

That's a total straw man arguement and you're shoving words into my mouth. I didn't say what you are saying I said.

I didn't say that they have to build guns to be a gunsmith. I said that they have to build OR REPAIR guns. And if they don't build guns and they don't repair guns, then they aren't a gunsmith. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

I remember ! It's the "Kitchen Table" gunsmith ! He owns a Dremel, and knows how to use it !!!

I wouldn't call myself a "gunsmith" nor would I extort money from someone by mis-representing myself as one, but having the desire to learn and using the proper tools goes a long way.

Fifteen or so years ago,
I had an old Marlin ??? older?, has a squirrel on the stock, different mfg. identical operation, that had some ejection issues, stovepipes to be precise.

Every shot would 'pipe in the chamber. I tried to "tweak" the little rod that ejects the spent cartridge and it broke.

So I took it to a 'smith here in town. After a day or so he calls back, sounding rude and said "come and get your rifle !" I said "OK, did you get it fixed ?" He hung up before I finished the sentence.

When I got to his shop he handed me the rifle and said to "Get the hell out of my shop, you're lucky I don't call the cops!" . I asked "what is the problem ?" He said "someone had tried to file on the trigger/sear to make it "full auto". "I bought the gun at a garage sale for ten dollars". He still refused to work on it.

I still have it, someday I am going to call Brownell's or MidwayUSA and fix it myself !

 

[JR47]

That's a total straw man arguement and you're shoving words into my mouth. I didn't say what you are saying I said.

I didn't say that they have to build guns to be a gunsmith. I said that they have to build OR REPAIR guns. And if they don't build guns and they don't repair guns, then they aren't a gunsmith. Is that so hard to understand?

Actually, I believe that I quoted you directly. I notice that you left the quote out. Why?

Yes, your shifting definitions are hard to understand. Your rant included a man who refused to work on your AK, and who admitted that he could help with an AR. How that morphed into a "parts assembler" is beyond me. This wasn't the man who assembled the ARs at a different shop.

Changing a barrel on an AR-15 does not make a person a gunsmith. It makes them a gun tech. If you can't make or repair a firearm, you should not be calling yourself a gunsmith. That is the point of my rant. I don't care if you can only make or repair a Marlin 22 rifle and nothing else, but if all you do is assemble parts, you are NOT a gunsmith.

Sure, but I wouldn't call knowing how to assemble an AR-15 a specialized gunsmith. Any idiot with access to youtube and a torque wrench can assemble an AR-15 in less than an hour. It's a freaking lego set. That does not make a person a gunsmith. Not even a gunsmith with only one area of expertise.

Gun Tech:
Works at a gun shop. Assembles AR-15s and might know how to put a 1911 together. Generally proudly proclaims that he is a gunsmith.

Gunsmith:
Could actually build a gun from scratch. Knows how to rechamber a barrel, thread a barrel, shorten and recrown a barrel, polish a trigger group, etc. This person is actually a gunsmith and you have to pay for his time.

I'd say that your problem lies more in the fact that somebody wouldn't fix YOUR gun, and you're just going off on everyone. That's YOUR personal definition of a gunsmith, not even the same as your included dictionary definition.

You didn't want a gun built, nor even parts made for them. You wanted:

So I wanted to get a single action revolver fixed. There was one gunsmith in all of WA that I could find that had any idea what to do. He did a great job. Of course he is the only gun smith I use anymore, but before I found him, I had a few other problems and they led to my eventual dislike of the "most competent idiot that knows what a barrel wrench is" types. I had a Savage pump shotgun that was in pieces. I wanted it put together into one piece. I got so tired of trying to find a gunsmith that could do this, that I just learned how to do it myself and put the damn thing together. But here's the real gem.. it deserves its own paragraph.

I bought an AK. It had an Arsenal trigger group. I wanted to give it a paint job (moly resin, not paint, don't worry), but the selector wouldn't clear the sear, so I couldn't remove the trigger group (FCG, for you technical types). I took the gun back to the shop that I bought it from, where they claimed it had been assembled from a kit. As it turns out, it wasn't actually assembled there, but was assembled by a guy they know who isn't doing any more AKs. So I asked them if the resident "gunsmith" could help me to take a look at this and get the FCG out. Well I confused about every person behind that counter with this request and when they finally got the "gunsmith" to take a look, he told me that he couldn't work on such an exotic firearm as an AK, and if I had an AR-15 he might be able to help me.

Nothing that you had required your own definition of a gunsmith. Yet, you're just firing away at people that you don't even know. They're incompetent idiots, simply because they wouldn't work on your particular guns.

You need a break. I don't accuse people that I've never met of anything, good or bad. I form opinions of people's skills after talking to them, or watching their results. Had you delivered your single-action pistol to Jardine, or Louder Than Words, you'd have come away disappointed. Would that make them "the most incompetent man with a barrel-wrench?"

 

[Wheeler44]

expvideo, saying that there is only one gunsmith in the state of WA speaks more of your searching skills that others smithing skills. Kinda like sayin' "It was in the last place that I looked" 'cause most folks quit lookin' after they've found.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

I suppose we could call them "Assemblers."

But I don't know what that accomplishes.

Craftsman Gunsmiths are an endangered species. Too many people are willing to buy cheap mass-produced guns. Who would spend $500 to repair a $400 gun, especially when a $200 gun is available to replace it? And if all the gunsmith gets in the way of business is low-level assembly, he's unlikely to expand his skills.

As an attorney I get a kick out of how so many people don't want to pay high fees for high-end analysis and planning, yet also don't want to pay much for "nuts and bolts" lawyering, as that's just a matter of "looking up the procedure, or finding the right forms, or writing it the right way".

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

That sounds like every town of any size I have ever lived in. Since I move often finding ''Jack'' in every town is a real challenge and then he usually has a bad heart/ kidney/ sick wife.... Keeping him alive and healthy long enough

I suspect that's true. Our Jack is a local treasure. He obviously doesn't need the money. I think he does it so he can hang around the people he likes ~ shooters.

When you go to Jack's shop, it's only polite to spend at least 20 minutes listening to his gun stories and rants about the junk people bring in for him to fix (which he always does).

 

[welldoya]

I used to think that a gunsmith is a gunsmith until I bought a Series 70s Colt .45. It had a funky looking green flourescent thing for a front sight which promptly fell off the first time I shot it.
I took it down to the local shop which , by the way, has gunsmith in the shop name. The old guy proceeds to tell me how he would have to braze a new sight on there and then would have to reblue the slide.
I'm not too technical myself but there's a groove there and it looks to me like a new sight would just need to be staked in . So I thanked him and left with the pistol.
I posted the predicament on the Colt forum where there are some very knowledgable people. To the man, they told me to find a new gunsmith.
So, I am going to send it back to Colt to get the work done. It's a nice gun and I would be REALLY upset if some jackleg screwed it up.
So no, not all gunsmiths are created equal.

 

[Mousegun]

I built a 1911 after reading a few books and serching the internet for information.

I am not a gunsmith by any stretch but I am smart and have mechanical. I can fix stuff and do stuff that I have not done before if I just read and analyze.

A gunsmith is simply a man or woman that has mechanical and is willing to apply that skill to anything he or she does with the added factor of experience.

I had an N.J. NRA champ shooter ask me to do his trigger on his match gun the same as mine and I rapidly declined because I couldn't guarantee the work. As stated before, I am not a gunsmith but I am good but not that good.

Too many people feel that they can do it all and fail repeatedly. If a person has done one or two jobs well but can't repeat their performance just about every time, they are not an expert gunsmith.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Welldoya, your post reminds me: I bought a new Series 70 Gold Cup back in 1983 and had some functioning problems with it. Knowing nothing of the 500 round break in period a 1911 needs, I took it to Jack.

He found a small burr and fixed that, and polished the feed ramp. When I picked it up, he said: "By the way, I staked the front sight, so you won't have to bring it back in a week".

 

[Dr.Rob]

Lots of 'smiths won't work on AK's, simple as that.

We are lucky to have a few VERY good smiths in the Denver area.

 

[expvideo]

You didn't want a gun built, nor even parts made for them. You wanted:

No I wanted a gun fixed because something in the FCG was not working correctly. That's the repair part of it. And it wasn't his lack of expertise with the AK that I had a problem with, it was his claim to be a gunsmith when he was really just a gun tech.

My definition hasn't shifted, and it has held true to the dictionary definition. I don't appreciate people calling themselves gunsmiths and extorting money from people under that false title, when they are really only gun techs. I don't care that he can't figure out my AK. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that he thinks it's ok to call himself a gunsmith when he is not a gunsmith. Almost every shop I go to has a resident "gunsmith", but very few of those are actually gunsmiths. That is the problem.

And you were puting words into my mouth. You seem to insist that I don't think someone that repairs guns is a gunsmith. I didn't say that. I said that anyone who builds and/or repairs firearms is a gunsmith. That's what I've been saying all along. You seem to be capitolizing on the "builds" part and insisting that I think you have to build a gun to be a gunsmith. I NEVER said that or implied it.

What I said was that assembling a lego rifle from parts with a wrench does not make you a gunsmith. Changing a barrel on an AR15 does not make you a gunsmith. Adding a free-float tube does not make you a gunsmith. That is assembling a gun, not building it or repairing it. You have to actually MODIFY OR FABRICATE a part for it to be building. If you're just pulling the parts out of the box and putting them together, you are NOT a gunsmith. Calling yourself a gunsmith is deceitful.

He found a small burr and fixed that, and polished the feed ramp. When I picked it up, he said: "By the way, I staked the front sight, so you won't have to bring it back in a week".

That is a great example of a gunsmith. He can repair a gun. That makes him a gunsmith. He didn't put a pile of parts together into an AR15, and he didn't teach you how to field strip a 1911. No, instead he actually repaired a firearm.

Lots of 'smiths won't work on AK's, simple as that.

I understand that and I accept it. I didn't have a problem with his lack of experience with AKs. I just thought it was funny that he called the most numerous firearm on the planet "exotic".

 

[Duke of Doubt]

If a man does a complete tear down and rebuild of a small block Chevy V8 and tranny, he is a mechanic. Even if he doesn't rotate the tires.

If a man does a complete tear down and rebuild of an M1 Garand and Colt Officer's Model Target revolver, he is a gunsmith. Even if he doesn't remove a burr or polish a ramp.

 

[expvideo]

If a man does a complete tear down and rebuild of an M1 Garand and Colt Officer's Model Target revolver, he is a gunsmith. Even if he doesn't remove a burr or polish a ramp.

Wrong. Just because a gunsmith can do that does not mean that doing it makes you a gunsmith.

I can bake a batch of cookies from scratch. That doesn't make me a pastry chef.

I can drive someone to the airport. That doesn't make me a chauffer.

Doing something that a professional can do does not make you a professional. Claiming that you are a professional just because you can perform one part of a professional's job is lying to the customer.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Then what in Sam Hill IS a "real gunsmith"? A man capable of fabricating a selective fire rifle from a hopper of iron ore, single handed, in the dark? Or is that just another glorified "assembler"?

Basically, you want a gunsmith to do whatever you want -- and if he can't, or won't, then you don't want to have to call him a gunsmith.

 

[expvideo]

Then what in Sam Hill IS a "real gunsmith"? A man capable of fabricating a selective fire rifle from a hopper of iron ore, single handed, in the dark? Or is that just another glorified "assembler"?

Basically, you want a gunsmith to do whatever you want -- and if he can't, or won't, then you don't want to have to call him a gunsmith.

For the 8th time. A person who makes or repairs firearms. Knowing how to take it apart and put it back together is not "making" or "repairing". It helps. But there's more to it than that.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Does disassembling a non-functional firearm, cleaning its mechanism down to the last pin, spring and screw, and replacing any minor broken or missing parts, meet your definition of gunsmithing? That's a repair job in my book. It can be repair, according to the feds.

Does assembling a parts kit into a functional firearm and finishing it and accessorizing it meet your definition of gunsmithing? That's making, in my book. Depending on the firearm's functionality, it is manufacturing according to the feds.

Still, both of those activities seem more like hobby tinkering than gunsmithing in some respects.

 

[possom813]

Ok, so if a person takes it apart and replaces a broken part and puts it back together, is that a gunsmith?

I made an AR for a friend of mine from a box of parts, what's the difference there from taking it apart and putting it back together, just pretending all the parts were broken.

There is no distinction that I can see.

A gunsmith is someone who is capable of working on a firearm. Just because the gunsmith specializes in certain firearms doesn't make him less of a gunsmith, just a specialty gunsmith.

 

[BHP FAN]

Grundman in Rio Dell [Scotia] is a freakin' wizard.