You are not a gunsmith (rant)

[expvideo]

Does disassembling a non-functional firearm, cleaning its mechanism down to the last pin, spring and screw, and replacing any minor broken or missing parts, meet your definition of gunsmithing? That's a repair job in my book. It can be repair, according to the feds.

Does assembling a parts kit into a functional firearm and finishing it and accessorizing it meet your definition of gunsmithing? That's making, in my book. Depending on the firearm's functionality, it is manufacturing according to the feds.

Still, both of those activities seem more like hobby tinkering than gunsmithing in some respects.

I can do all of that to my AR-15, but that doesn't make me a gunsmith.

A gunsmith is someone who is capable of working on a firearm. Just because the gunsmith specializes in certain firearms doesn't make him less of a gunsmith, just a specialty gunsmith.

Sounds like a tech to me. I can work certain firearms. I'm not a gunsmith. I'm a guy with tools, brains and the internet. Just because a gunsmith does it, does not mean that doing it makes you a gunsmith.

 

[yooper_sjd]

Gunsmith!? broad title

Well i don't consider my self a smith nor a master. But after 20 yrs as an armorer and small arms instructor. But when i have licensed dealer, whom the brother is a licensed smith hand me a bag with a barrel sticking out of it, and tell it is mine for NADA if i can put it together. I was like a kid in a candy store. grabbed bag and ran for the truck with a smile on my face. The muzzle poking out of the bag had a flash suppresor, and black. Poked my nose into the bag, and i see pistol gripped receiver and seperate stock with recoil spring, whooo hooooo scored a g-3 or cetme.

i got home and noted it was a CETME Sporter, and had it assebled in 2 min. Some bubba disassembled (sorry wrong word) tore it apart with a hammer and screw driver. :banghead: I got my jewelers files out and my ceramic stone set and set to work, smoothing out the dents and dings from the bubba-rizer hammer and screwdriver disassembly method.

but long story short, got a perfectly good functioning weapon at no cost, and no paper trail.

moto of story, i got the knowledge to recrown a barrel, did it my self, freinds lathe was usefull. i can rechamber a barrel if need, but don't have the tooling. i can definetly polish a trigger assembly and clean cosmoline from weapons. but i do not consider myself a smith nor a master. I just little ole me who is just trying to survive. I mearly consider myself a weapon mechanic.

 

[expvideo]

Well i don't consider my self a smith nor a master. But after 20 yrs as an armorer and small arms instructor. But when i have licensed dealer, whom the brother is a licensed smith hand me a bag with a barrel sticking out of it, and tell it is mine for NADA if i can put it together. I was like a kid in a candy store. grabbed bag and ran for the truck with a smile on my face. The muzzle poking out of the bag had a flash suppresor, and black. Poked my nose into the bag, and i see pistol gripped receiver and seperate stock with recoil spring, whooo hooooo scored a g-3 or cetme.

i got home and had it assebled in 2 min. Some bubba disassembled (sorry wrong word) tore it apart with a hammer and screw driver. I got my jewelers files out and my ceramic stone set and set to work. smoothing out the dents and dings from the bubba-rizer hammer and screwdriver disassembly method.

but long story short, got a perfectly good functioning weapon at no cost, and no paper trail.

moto of story, i got the knowledge to recrown a barrel, did it my self, freinds lathe was usefull. i can rechamber a barrel if need, but don't have the tooling. i can definetly polish a trigger assembly and clean cosmoline from weapons. but i do not consider myself a smith nor a master. I just little ole me who is just trying to survive. I mearly consider myself a weapon mechanic.

I'd say that you're a whole lot closer to being a gunsmith than most of the people in gun shops that claim to be one.

 

[orchidhunter]

yooper_sjd, Don't boast to much about " no paper trail", on a public forum. orchidhunter

 

[machinisttx]

Gunsmith:
Could actually build a gun from scratch. Knows how to rechamber a barrel, thread a barrel, shorten and recrown a barrel, polish a trigger group, etc. This person is actually a gunsmith and you have to pay for his time.

I hate to break it to you, but from what I know of most gunsmiths, they're not generally experienced machinists.

Some gunsmiths are machinists or were tool and die makers prior to getting into gunsmithing. I know of one gunsmith that doesn't even own a lathe or milling machine.

Some gunsmithing involves intensive machine work, most doesn't.

*Post not intended to be a knock on gunsmiths. Simply trying to point out that making a firearm from "scratch" isn't nearly as easy as it sounds.

 

[Jeff F]

The guy's that build Ar's and ak's are armorers not gunsmiths. Pretty much the same for guy's that put together 1911's. A real gunsmith can make a broken part with hand tools if need be. Its a dieing breed.

 

[expvideo]

*Post not intended to be a knock on gunsmiths. Simply trying to point out that making a firearm from "scratch" isn't nearly as easy as it sounds.

I wasn't saying it was easy. Gunsmithing isn't easy. I imagine that the people who put the time and energy into becoming an actual gunsmith might not be too fond of people giving themselves the title just because they spent an afternoon on youtube and figured out how to put an AR together.

 

[unspellable]

While it's true that a "gunsmith" cannot be expected to be proficient with ANY firearm, I do expect them to be to be able to remove a screw (not frozen) with out buggering it up. Unfortunately I am often disappointed.

 

[SSN Vet]

Sooo, a cardiologist can't call himself a "doctor" because he can't cure cancer...or remove warts...or inflate busoms...

Now That's Funny!!

I've converted a Saiga, assembled and AR from a kit, mounted scopes and receiver sights, cleaned a crusty Win 1200 trigger group back into operation and done a trigger job on a Marlin 336.

For Christmas, my secret Santa at work got me a 155 page book entitled "Gunsmithing Made Easy" which I have read twice.

Can I call myself a gunsmith yet?

 

[orionengnr]

gun·smith (gŭn'smĭth') Pronunciation Key
n. One that makes or repairs firearms.

You keep harping on this definition. Since you are so fond of dictionary definitions, let's look at "repair".

repair (verb) a: to restore by replacing a part or putting together what is torn or broken: FIX b: to to restore to a sound or healthy state: RENEW
To make good: compensate for : REMEDY to make repairs...etc, etc...

My Remingtom 513 had a crappy trigger pull...I read up on the internet to find a disassembly diagram, and took it apart, ordered a new trigger from Numrich, put it together. Trigger pull is now smooth and consistent.

I "replaced a part" as in "a" of "repair" above.
Ergo, by definition, I "repaired" the rifle.
Ergo, by your definition, I am a "gunsmith".

By your definition, not by mine.

 

[rbernie]

But through all of this quibbling over definitions, I think that we all *know* that some folk are armorers and some folk are gunsmiths.

I think that the genesis of the rant was that sometimes, just sometimes, some armorers portray themselves as gunsmiths - usually to no good end.

And that is a observation with which I completely concur.

 

[SuperNaut]

yooper_sjd, Don't boast to much about " no paper trail", on a public forum.

Why? Any state that allows FTF firearm sales is entirely "paperless" and also entirely legal. Do you live in California perchance?

 

[Xhairs]

...DJs Gun and Loan in Bothell, WA.

Duly noted.
Nice rant.
Took a -1 off for no cussing.

 

[expvideo]

But through all of this quibbling over definitions, I think that we all *know* that some folk are armorers and some folk are gunsmiths.

I think that the genesis of the rant was that sometimes, just sometimes, some armorers portray themselves as gunsmiths - usually to no good end.

And that is a observation with which I completely concur.

Simply put, yes. This is my point. I'm not trying to discount armorers as worthless or say that amature "gunsmiths" aren't good people to know. I'm just saying that it is a prestigious title that requires a lot of work, experience and even licensing in some states, and a lot of armorers and amatures like to give themselves this title without having done that. I find it frustrating that people would call themselves a gunsmith when they are not a gunsmith. A lot of people like to brag and pretend to be something that they are not, just because they can do some of the things that the title suggests. A real honest-to-god gunsmith, all definitions asside, has worked very hard for a long time to become a real gunsmith. My only point is that far more often what you will find people at gunshops claiming to be gunsmiths are not gunsmiths at all, but armorers who know their way around certain guns. I don't appreciate them calling themselves gunsmiths and taking all of the trust and payment that comes with the title, when they are not really gunsmiths. It is dishonest and it is a mockery of the real profession.

To put it simply, sharpening a sword does not make you a blacksmith, so if all you can do is sharpen a sword, you should not be advertising yourself as a blacksmith because it instills a false trust in you with the customer, and it enables you to claim a price that you don't deserve for your work, by using the reputation of others who actually earned their title.

 

[yooper_sjd]

Quote:
Originally Posted by orchidhunter
yooper_sjd, Don't boast to much about " no paper trail", on a public forum.


in michigan a FTF is legal. Only paper work required when at a licensed dealer just for fed purposes. Always someone or an orgination raffling off a rifle at local bars. With the rifle on display in the bar. And no paperwork as far as i know for that, never won the rifle.

 

[expvideo]

in michigan a FTF is legal. Only paper work required when at a licensed dealer just for fed purposes. Always someone or an orgination raffling off a rifle at local bars. With the rifle on display in the bar. And no paperwork as far as i know for that, never won the rifle.

I think his point was that you start to lose the benefit of anonymity when you start talking about the purchases online. Who you are and where you live is very easy to find just from your IP. Now I don't know how to do it, but many forum goers do. Anyway, the point is that if your goal is to be anonymous, talking about it in public does not help you to be anonymous.

 

[orchidhunter]

yooper sjd, Do you have any contact info for this licensed dealer, that did this FTF deal with no paper trail. I know some folks that will buy all of his disassembled firearms, and pay assembled prices. orchidhunter

 

[koginam]

The definition of gunsmith is very broad and because of that when TAOGART was developing its gunsmith apprenticeship programs they were required to develop several different definitions and requirements for each.
http://www.taogart.org/CertificateRequirements.html
A gunsmith that only repairs firearms by replacing parts still has to diagnose the problem and fit the parts, this takes skill and time. I was very fortunate to be able to visit the work shops of several top gun makers in Europe over the last few years and many of the smiths work at workbenches with only hand tools. They don't build the parts they just fit them but believe me they are gunsmiths.

 

[gregormeister]

My own 2 cents is to by the videos and manuals online that are for your firearms and learn them, now someone will say "what about my old woodsman that I want a better trigger pull one?" well go ahead and seek out the proper guy for the job, but if your goin for new furniture placement or gadgets to mount or assembly-disasembly ETC.., LEARN IT....

In a SHTF situation you have to know how to properly clean and maintain your weapon down to complete bolt disassembly....A firearm is only as good as the person operating it....

 

[Onmilo]

I am a gunsmith.
I am also a certified journeyman machinist.
I can build a firearm from scratch, heat treat the steel and final finish it too.

There are some firearms that I will not work on, newer Smith and Wessons, Taurus firearms, Newer Sig pistols, etc. and this isn't because I cannot do so, it is because it would invalidate the factory warranty because I am not a factory certified repair center.

Older guns are fair game but a put together from parts AKM type rifle is one I wouldn't personally touch either.

Simple reason,
LIABILITY!

 

[expvideo]

I am a gunsmith.
I am also a certified journeyman machinist.
I can build a firearm from scratch, heat treat the steel and final finish it too.

There are some firearms that I will not work on, newer Smith and Wessons, Taurus firearms, Newer Sig pistols, etc. and this isn't because I cannot do so, it is because it would invalidate the factory warranty because I am not a factory certified repair center.

Older guns are fair game but a put together from parts AKM type rifle is one I wouldn't personally touch either.

Simple reason,
LIABILITY!

And that is understandable. I'm not saying that it isn't. Now, as a gunsmith, how do you personally feel about the people at gunshops who claim to be gunsmiths but are really just armorers? Do you think that it is wrong for them to associate their level of skill with the people who have actually built that reputation, or is it ok? I would really like to get the honest opinion of a gunsmith. As a consumer who is going to have to pay one of these bozos that is extorting that fee and giving me a false feeling of trust through claiming to be something he isn't, it sure bothers me. But I'd like to get your opinion as well.

 

[Onmilo]

I don't have an opinion other than if the shop isn't hanging a sign that states "Certified gunsmith on site", there isn't a certified gunsmith working there.

I carry insurance for the work I perform and do not lay the liability on the shop.

 

[harrygunner]

I should have understood the critical distinction highlighted in this thread.

I made the mistake of sending a lot money to a guy who advertised gunsmithing, but based on what he produced for me, only knows how to assemble guns from parts.

I wound up spending a lot more money with real gunsmiths to fix his mess.

At the time, I relied on Internet praise he was getting and his reassuring words. Now, I only go with well established gunsmiths and machinists.

 

[ScotZ]

Before my father died ,he told me to make sure I was comfortable working on any gun that I purchase. I heeded his words. If I cant repair it on my kitchen table or my shop then I should at least be smart enough to know what I CAN'T do due to lack of tooling or expertise. With the internet, there really is no excuse for not knowing your own guns inside and out. Its not like the "old days" when I had to find all my information through magazines,cataloges and snail mail. Part of the problem gunsmiths have is their customers inabillity to communicate what they really want done.

 

[JR47]

You guys just don't get it. A gunsmith is whoever one says is a gunsmith. It's obviously someone who will work on their firearms, and that's what's important.

The circular logic is a dead give-away. You have to be able to make and fix a gun. Building one from parts constructed by your very own hands. Then, you have to be able to fix anything that they bring to you.

Those who specialize in a single type of gun aren't gunsmiths, even if they have to fabricate parts for it, unless they can build one.

Sheesh, for the ninth time, it has nothing to do with ability, just a rambling definition.