You are not a gunsmith (rant)

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You guys just don't get it. A gunsmith is whoever one says is a gunsmith. It's obviously someone who will work on their firearms, and that's what's important.

The circular logic is a dead give-away. You have to be able to make and fix a gun. Building one from parts constructed by your very own hands. Then, you have to be able to fix anything that they bring to you.

Those who specialize in a single type of gun aren't gunsmiths, even if they have to fabricate parts for it, unless they can build one.

Sheesh, for the ninth time, it has nothing to do with ability, just a rambling definition.
To quote a movie... I don't remember which one....

"Shoving feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken." Let me re-word it so that you can understand.

"What do you guys expect for someone to consider themselves a doctor?! You think anybody that wants to consider themselves a doctor has to be able to get a degree, go to med school and graduate? Then you probably expect them to understand how the human body works and be able to treat it at the same time. So what would you call someone that tells you to take NyQuil for your cold? He said NyQuil, but I guess as far as you guys are concerned, that doesn't make him a doctor."

Sounds silly, huh? Just doing something that professionals do does not make a person that professional. Knowing that Nyquil will make your cold feel better does not give me the right to open up a private practice and tell you that I am a doctor so that you will trust me with your body. Just knowing how to do some gunsmithing does not make someone a gunsmith either. It is an earned title, just like doctor, and using that title to get someone's business when you haven't earned it is lying.

Just like I wouldn't expect a doctor to know everything about the human body, I wouldn't expect a gunsmith to know everything about every gun. It is ok to specialize. There is nothing wrong with that. But claiming to be a doctor when you are not, and claiming to be a gunsmith when you are not are the same kind of thing. They are both misleading a customer so that they will trust you.
 
The problem of gunsmiths:

weapon popularity.

If I work on my AR or 1911 (both easy guns to work on, both having great online support forums and many many books on the subject), then I have a very high chance of success (and have). Unfortuantely, someone comes up to me with a Astra with hammer follow, I cannot help them (especially if there are no parts).

The days of the know all gunsmith that can fabricate their own weapons is dwindling in my opinion. Why? Because young jerks my age :D are buying modular weapons, easy to fit parts from companies that design the parts, not shooters themselves. Do I want to learn how to fix a hammer follow on an Astra? Not really.

I consider myself a tinkerer and a shooter, not a gunsmith. I regularly work on 1911s as others have wanted my services, however, I inform them of the fact that I am not a gunsmith, I am not licensed and need a waiver (which I keep handy) signed. I have never needed to use the waivers, but then again, I knew what I was doing with thier particular weapon as I was familiar with them.
 
Gunsmiths are no different from any other profession. We could be talking about mechanics, lawyers, doctors, preachers, or french fry cooks. Some are trained, experienced, and compentent while there are others who lack at least one of these traits.

I work on guns. I don't advertise and I really don't want people to know. But, folks still seem to drop by the house from time to time and ask if I can fix whatever is wrong with their gun. Following is the disclaimer I give to everyone:
"I am not a gunsmith. I learn as I go. If you don't mind me learning on your gun, I will be glad to try. But if I can't fix it you may be worse off when I am finished than you are right now. And there is no telling when you might get it back."

Strangely enough, I have never had a single person turn me down. Honestly, if anyone ever said that to me, I would run. I say all of that to make this point: it is difficult to find a good one. The fact that people bring their guns to me proves that! I actually started working on guns out of necessity because I couldn't find anyone I trusted to work on mine after my guy moved out of state.

edit: to battlechimp: I would like to see one of the waivers you use.
 
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Certifications

I know that there are Glock certified armorers and Sig and whatnot. Maybe that is the problem.

I am in the computer business, now a manager, for years was a COBOL programmer. In this industry, every year, there are more technologies that are certified and therefore more and more employers require certifications. This is especially true for networking and things like that...back to guns...oops not yet.

Anybody can buy a boat who has $20,000 bucks and you're the "captain". However, to really be a captain, you have to be licensed at several different levels...a "Six Pack" allows you to charter up to six clients, a "Master" allows more etc...now to guns.

Besides the individual maker certifications, are there any more global certifications for gunsmiths? This would of course presume that there is a body that a) sets forth certification requirements, b) keeps them current, c) certifies individuals with a sufficiently rigorous testing methodology, and maybe most importantly, d) REGULATES and ENFORCES gunsmiths so that certification actualy means something...like the Coast Guard does with captains...not a real captain with the right license...they can take the boat and they can keep it, no matter who owns it!

Of course we all know how well Regs go over in this community.

Summing up, if there were real, rigorous, and meaningful certification of gunsmiths, you'd know who the real gunsmiths were and you couldn't call yourself one if you weren't one.
 
I'm a gunsmith to all the firearms I own. Well, maybe not really, but I consider myself an "educated tinkerer". I have made it a point to be able to detail strip every single one of my weapons down to the smallest parts if/when I have to replace something or upgrade a part. My collection includes Glocks, 1911s, Kahrs, Kel-Tecs, Rugers, Walthers, Mossberg 500 shotgun, AK, SKS, etc. Done quite a bit of 'smithing on Kel-Tec P3ATs back when they needed the fluff and buff treatment to even beginning to think about working reliably. :rolleyes:
 
My waivers (if the friend chooses to sign) essentially says that I am not a licensed gunsmith, but the person is allowing me to repair or modify their weapon, per their specifications (then I leave a spot for what they want done).

I also have a line on there how I do not take payment for the service...a huge difference between me and "gunsmiths". I dont have qualifications to pay for, therefore, I dont charge. But, I usually only work on friend's guns, they know my work, so it never really becomes an issue.
 
Some people can't fix anything I once sent a Russian Capture 98k to gunshop across town to be reblued and it came back parkerized:banghead:.

The other gunsmith In town can fix anything- he repaired a 1870s Rolling block in .45-70 to perfect condition. I am going to be apprenticing with him when I turn 16. And he gave me 80 rds of 8mm for Christmas:).
 
OK - it's a rant thread. Over the years I have had numerous gun-shop-smiths work on my guns. Had some minor stuff fixed, but over-all, it has cost me considerably more to un-do what they did, than the cost of a competent repair would have been in the first place.

1. I have had a gun ruined because a locally touted expert over-buffed the gun while refinishing it. They didn't think so, after all, whats rounded edges or lost lettering got to do with anything.

2. I have had hard to replace parts lost.

3. I have had a gun restored that came back in worse condition than before it was sent off.

4. I had one gun returned that was not together, had parts missing, and what did come back had been damaged to the point it was a major job just to salvage it

Today, I have a couple premium gunsmiths that I use depending on what I need. From simple stuff to a major build. You get what you pay for! I have sent guns back to the Colt Custom Shop and have always been pleased with what I got from them.

I rarely go to gun shops anymore. When I do its mostly out of boredom. I buy my ammo and targets off the internet (better price). When I'm in the market for something particular - it is generally easier to find it on the net, and their are lots of FFLs to take shipment. Backroom smiths - no thanks.
 
I'm lucky to be about 20 minutes from Cox's in greenville. He may be slow as Christmas, but can do dang near anything there is to be done with a firearm, doesn't matter how new, old, or exotic, he can handle it. And man, you should see some of the custom stocks that him and his dad have done. Unbelieveable.
 
I think what you are confusing as a "Gunsmith" is actually an Armorer.

Someone who can switch out a connector in a Glock, or change springs in a Sig, or swap barrels on an AR, they are Armorers.

If you need lockwork or parts made for something, or any procedure involving actually making something, welding, brazing, remachining, etc. that's a "Gunsmith".

I've seen enough big-box store "gunsmiths" send out hunting rifles with supposedly-zeroed scopes to know that most of those big-box store "gunsmiths" are barely armorers, and if they fix guns like they install scopes, watch out.
 
All I can say is Wow.

I used to have a Gunsmithing Shop for 12 years. It was one man, me. I let it go in 1998, due to Bill Clinton and my health.

Anyway, Let me tell you what I did, and what I noticed happening during those years.

When I wanted to start, I incroporated, and built a shop builiding in my back yard. Next came reading everything that I could on the subject to find out what I needed to know to have what I considered basic knowledge.

Then it was school. Welding, machining, woodworking, metallurgy and business classes part time at the local college for a year and a half. The gunsmithing course (video) from American Gunsmithing Institute, I had a gun book of some type in my hand at all times. During that year, I bought manythousands of dollars of stuff from Brownells, Got a tig welder, a oven, 12x36 lathe, small mill, sandblaster, large utrasonic cleaner, and on and on and on. Just finding suppliers was hell sometines. The internet was a dream at that time, so thank god for Brownells and Shotgun news.

After all that, I got a collection of the crappiest trash guns I could find from Sarco and got to work rebuilding them and honing my techniques. Stocks,barrels, sights, etc you name it, I tried it.

After 3 to 4 months of this, I turned my attention onto mine and my familes and friends guns. When I had rebuilt, or fixed and refixed and modified untill they were perfect, well, that is when I quit the jobs I had, got my state and federal manufacturing FFL, and went full time.

Sounds like a mess don't it. Well, I was happier than ever.

It was after I had ben open for several months, that I decided to go and check out the competition. I quickly found that most had no clue.

Almost everyone that I found lurkeing at gun stores were what I called Mr Fix-Its. These guys could add a scope, or sometimes even put on a butpad, but were mostly incompetant in anything except a limited area of work. They would turn you away for almost anything that was not a bolt on job. Change th cast on my shotguns stock? heck no. How about back boring the crown on my rifle? No way. Make a new sear for my ancient muzzleloader? They would laugh you out of the store.

Sounds like the complaints that all of you are making now, huh?

The thing is this. Just as it was then, it is now. You will not find someone with a broad and varied background or capability working anywhere near a gunshop. A full gunsmith will invariably have his own FFL and his own shop. Failing that, they are working for a large manufaturer or repair business.

This is just like what happened with computer techntions. At one time, If you needed a computer fixed, you paid a person with a minimum of a twoyear degree in electronics and computer science to repair that unit. (the gunsmith)

Now, places like Best Buy have their 'Geek Squad' for you to take it to. It amazes me how little knowledge these guys have. They have only on the job training, and follow a well laid out procedure book for every problem. The onesI have talked to I would not even let them watch my computer, much less fix it.

If the work that you need is specifically what the guy in the gunshop does, and you see his other work and it is good, well then go a head with it. But watch what work you have done. Be sure of qualifications for anything that is not a bolt on. Things like barrel work, trigger work, and stock work. Be very very careful about who you let refinish you gun. Remember this, S&W does not allow their finishers (buffers)to work unsupervised for YEARS, because the art of buffing is really pretty hard to learn and it can be messed up real easy. I ALWAYS sent any buffing work out to specialty shops that I had pre screened by sending them tough examples to do.

You must be careful. No gunsmiths are certified by any state. The best you can do is ask them directly what their qualifications and education is. If it is from the Colorodo school of Trades in Gunsmithing, great! If they him and haw, well, run the other way, because they really do not understand what is going on in that gun of yours. The last thing you want is a incompetant touching something that tries to contain up to 50,000 psi inches from your face, maybe even worse, that protection firearm you have not working when you need it.
 
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Housedad,welcome to THR. In those 12 years you were a gunsmith,how much of your work was repairing guns that the owner had "fixed" himself?
 
I spent the last Eight years as an Auto Technician working on Mercedes-Benzes. I'm very good with them. I don't know beans about a Ford or Chevy, though.
 
I spent the last Eight years as an Auto Technician working on Mercedes-Benzes. I'm very good with them. I don't know beans about a Ford or Chevy, though.
See, I noticed that you called yourself a technician, not a master mechanic or any other incorrect title. My problem is gun technicians giving themselves incorrect titles in order to get the trust and business of people who think they are gunsmiths.
 
FWI,"auto technician" is the proper terminology replacing "auto mechanic". Since most automotive problems are electrical/electronic or computer related the lexicon has changed. BTW :an auto technician CAN be a master mechanic while a master mechanic IS an auto technician.
 
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FWI,"auto technician" is the proper terminology replacing "auto mechanic". Since most automotive problems are electrical/electronic or computer related the lexicon has changed. BTW :an auto technician CAN be a master mechanic while a master mechanic IS an auto technician.
Well I'm not really well versed on the auto industry, but I think my point was clear enough anyway.
 
Come now, if you're correct that the terminology has changed, how could the poster tell you that you weren't what he was talking about?

There are ZERO national or International requirements for the title gunsmith. This isn't like knife-making, where there are VOLUNTARY requirements to be associated with an organization like ABS.

The entire diatribe on doctors was a straw man argument, anyway. That wasn't a diagnosis, either. The poster is obviously unaware that many medical professionals, and some certifications, allow for diagnosis, and treatment, yet aren't doctors. The levels of treatment vary, from EMT-B, which is a certification, but who can treat trauma, or disease, without a doctor's guidance, and transport to medical facilities, to the EMT-P, who, without contact with a physician, can administer invasive treatments, and drugs. The Military Medics have a long history of operating (in some cases literally) in the field without a doctor. The Physician's Assistant also diagnose, and prescribes medication. I'm guessing that the OP would have some trite little definition for them, as well?

The overall point being that the OP has their own opinion of what constitutes a gunsmith. They were upset because someone wouldn't try to disassemble their AK, and called it "exotic". They determined, via Ouija Board, from the sounds of it, that only a single "gunsmith" in the entire state of Washington, would fix their single action revolver. Accordingly, they have derogatory terms for anyone who doesn't meet their arbitrary definition, and not the one they supplied from the dictionary.

Until there are definite parameters for the title, accepted by some regulatory agency, there will be as many "noun-someone who makes or repairs guns" out there, with varying expertise, as want to be.
 
Today the need for someone capable of making a part from scratch is not in the mainstream of gun repair. The internet makes locating the proper replacement part a snap. Ordering a part with a credit card over the 'net results in a wait of a couple of days. Unless it is a very RARE arm there just isn't a need for a parts manufacturer. Why would any body spend a couple of hours of shop time to make what the can easily buy?
 
In my opinion,if a person can DO the work,who cares what he calls himself. If he can't do the work,don't give him your gun or your money. References,always get references.
 
The entire diatribe on doctors was a straw man argument, anyway. That wasn't a diagnosis, either. The poster is obviously unaware that many medical professionals, and some certifications, allow for diagnosis, and treatment, yet aren't doctors. The levels of treatment vary, from EMT-B, which is a certification, but who can treat trauma, or disease, without a doctor's guidance, and transport to medical facilities, to the EMT-P, who, without contact with a physician, can administer invasive treatments, and drugs. The Military Medics have a long history of operating (in some cases literally) in the field without a doctor. The Physician's Assistant also diagnose, and prescribes medication. I'm guessing that the OP would have some trite little definition for them, as well?

Call them whatever you want, but an EMT is not a doctor no matter how many doctor-like functions they perform. Same thing with a gun tech not being a gunsmith.

It's not about certification, it's about what you do. Assembling an AR from parts is not gunsmithing. The capability to assemble an AR from parts does not make one a gunsmith.

In my opinion,if a person can DO the work,who cares what he calls himself. If he can't do the work,don't give him your gun or your money. References,always get references.
Yes, but using the title "gunsmith" is like giving yourself references. People trust that title, as they should, but some people abuse the title and apply it to themselves when they are not that.

To me a gunsmith is someone that you can trust to work on your guns. If you aren't that person, don't call yourself a gunsmith.


I don't know how many times I have to say this, so I'll just bold it this time, since everyone seems to be misunderstanding me:

It is ok to specialize. I do not expect a gunsmith to understand every gun.

The point of the OP was not to imply that, but to rant about the people in gun shops that know how to assemble an AR and falsely claim to be a "gunsmith". That is all.
 
Expvideo,we are NOT in dissagreement here. My only contention is that MAYBE you're putting too fine a line on what constitutes a gunsmith. " A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet"..the Bard of Avon.
 
jimmyraythomason--- Quite a few times. Usually it was due to them not understanding the nature of the problem,and then making things worse by buggering up something else and then not being able to figure where all the parts go.

The saddest ones were where someone would take their gun to a "gunsmith" and have them do something the "gunsmith was not qualified for.

The gun would invairably end up on my bench. Most of the times, I was able to fix the original problem and repair the "gunsmiths" damage for less $$ then the "gunsmith" charged for screwing it up the first time.

I loved the ones where I would get a 'bag gun' in peices because one of those guys could not figure out how to put it back together right. Sheesh.
 
I agree with the topic poster. Too often when I go to try and find someone to fix anything I have (one Remington 870, SIG SHR 970, etc etc) I hand it to the guy behind the counter and he says their "Smith" will take a look at it. A week later I get it back and "We can't fix it, it's to exotic/they don't make parts for it anymore/I've never even seen such a thing".

Seems like every and anyone these days can call themselves a "Gunsmith". Heck, I almost prefer to bubba a rifle or shotgun than hand it to some of the loons around Kansas City.
 
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