you draw your weapon, they run away...
- Thread starter Omni04
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Technosavant
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One question for the police officers:
Would not the usual street thugs be known to the officers? I would think that, not only would it be prudent to call the cops, but that the officers would also know that some thug complaining about "that crazy guy with the gun" would be a liar, due to past experience.
Correct me if I am wrong, but even if the punk has a couple buddies verifying his story, the police would probably know ('cuz they have met these lowlifes before) that they can't trust a word they say.
Would not the usual street thugs be known to the officers? I would think that, not only would it be prudent to call the cops, but that the officers would also know that some thug complaining about "that crazy guy with the gun" would be a liar, due to past experience.
Correct me if I am wrong, but even if the punk has a couple buddies verifying his story, the police would probably know ('cuz they have met these lowlifes before) that they can't trust a word they say.
Depending where you are, that might be true, especially in a small town. But in a bigger city, you can't know all the crooks on your beat. That's even more true, considering how often some departments move their people around.
And don't forget, when the call comes in of a man with a gun, threatening people with it, the responding officers will naturally be a little wound up. You are going to be the main focus of their attention. I have come close to shooting homeowners with guns still in their hands when I roll up.
The cops are just guys like you, and they want to go home to their family alive also. After all, this thread was about pointing a gun a someone with a bat or knife across a parking lot. Imagine what it's like to roll up on a man with a gun call, not knowing who the players are.
And don't forget, when the call comes in of a man with a gun, threatening people with it, the responding officers will naturally be a little wound up. You are going to be the main focus of their attention. I have come close to shooting homeowners with guns still in their hands when I roll up.
The cops are just guys like you, and they want to go home to their family alive also. After all, this thread was about pointing a gun a someone with a bat or knife across a parking lot. Imagine what it's like to roll up on a man with a gun call, not knowing who the players are.
Answerguy,
I can think of an instance many years ago when a certain LEO (who shall remain unidentified) was with some friends at a park when a couple of whacked out Angel Dust smokers showed up looking to buy drugs. When one of the LEO’s friends, whom the dustos had asked for drugs, told them: "You have the wrong guys to ask about such things, go away", one of the whackos pulls out a blade and staggers and tries to point it at the friend of the LEO. The LEO leveled a .357 magnum at him told him to halt and drop the knife. He did, then he and his friend turned tail and ran, stumbled, staggered down the street. No cell phones back then; well maybe there were but not like today, they were expensive and hardly anyone had them - certainly not our LEO or his friends. Maybe, and this part here is just hypothetical, the LEO just figured they were pretty harmless in their condition or, maybe he did not want to be bothered with all the headaches of filing all the reports that he would need to file with the NYPD and with his own agency. Maybe a bad move but I can assure you, as well as I know him, I know that the LEO has learned some since then.
Well, guess where the dustos went. They went directly to the local police station and said a guy just tired to mug them at gun point. About 15 NYPD cop cars showed up in less than 5 minutes and they grabbed the friend of the LEO because he is whom the bad guys identified as having he gun. Yes they were pretty whacked out to have identified the wrong guy. The LEO stepped forward, identified himself to the police, explained what happened and; he was immediately taken into custody for questioning. After a trip to the station house and, a brief explanation by the LEO, the police then told the LEO off in quite ridiculous and nasty terms about how the dustos may have taken away the LEO’s weapon and; that only the police were capable of handling such a scene. (I guess they thought it would have been better to let the guy try to stab someone!) The police then released the LEO with no further ado.
Outcome for the two dust heads is unknown but they were nowhere to be seen at the station and the police refused to take a complaint on them, from the LEO, for pulling the knife on his friend. Go figure. My guess is they had already sauntered off to look for a drug dealer, while the police had rolled out on the man with gun complaint. While I will not identify the LEO, nor his department, lets just say I have this one on extremely reliable authority - and I am certain it happened pretty much just like that. As a matter of fact I still may have that knife but, please do not ask me how I got it because I am not telling.
All the best,
Glenn B
Not as remote as you think. Bad guys panic too and make dumb decisions, they also are often whacked out on drugs when they do what they do and this clouds judgment.
I can think of an instance many years ago when a certain LEO (who shall remain unidentified) was with some friends at a park when a couple of whacked out Angel Dust smokers showed up looking to buy drugs. When one of the LEO’s friends, whom the dustos had asked for drugs, told them: "You have the wrong guys to ask about such things, go away", one of the whackos pulls out a blade and staggers and tries to point it at the friend of the LEO. The LEO leveled a .357 magnum at him told him to halt and drop the knife. He did, then he and his friend turned tail and ran, stumbled, staggered down the street. No cell phones back then; well maybe there were but not like today, they were expensive and hardly anyone had them - certainly not our LEO or his friends. Maybe, and this part here is just hypothetical, the LEO just figured they were pretty harmless in their condition or, maybe he did not want to be bothered with all the headaches of filing all the reports that he would need to file with the NYPD and with his own agency. Maybe a bad move but I can assure you, as well as I know him, I know that the LEO has learned some since then.
Well, guess where the dustos went. They went directly to the local police station and said a guy just tired to mug them at gun point. About 15 NYPD cop cars showed up in less than 5 minutes and they grabbed the friend of the LEO because he is whom the bad guys identified as having he gun. Yes they were pretty whacked out to have identified the wrong guy. The LEO stepped forward, identified himself to the police, explained what happened and; he was immediately taken into custody for questioning. After a trip to the station house and, a brief explanation by the LEO, the police then told the LEO off in quite ridiculous and nasty terms about how the dustos may have taken away the LEO’s weapon and; that only the police were capable of handling such a scene. (I guess they thought it would have been better to let the guy try to stab someone!) The police then released the LEO with no further ado.
Outcome for the two dust heads is unknown but they were nowhere to be seen at the station and the police refused to take a complaint on them, from the LEO, for pulling the knife on his friend. Go figure. My guess is they had already sauntered off to look for a drug dealer, while the police had rolled out on the man with gun complaint. While I will not identify the LEO, nor his department, lets just say I have this one on extremely reliable authority - and I am certain it happened pretty much just like that. As a matter of fact I still may have that knife but, please do not ask me how I got it because I am not telling.
All the best,
Glenn B
I don't understand--(QUOTE)" the police then told the LEO off in quite ridiculous and nasty terms about how the dustos may have taken away the LEO’s weapon and; that only the police were capable of handling such a scene."
L E O=Law Enforcement Officer=Police
If only the police were capable of handling it,wouldn't they be glad one of their own was on scene???
L E O=Law Enforcement Officer=Police
If only the police were capable of handling it,wouldn't they be glad one of their own was on scene???
Maybe you do not have a lot of experience with police departments or how they work, especially the larger ones and the 'its us or no one' attitude that they often have. There is a certain level of feeling superior to all others that such departments tend to instill among their officers and that the officers then try to shove down every one else's throats. The NYPD does not consider an other type of law enforcement officer to be one of their own. Hopefully that makes it clearer.
By the way LEO equals Law Enforcement Oficer is a yes. Police officer equals LEO is a yes. BUT Law Enforcement Officer equals police is a NO, at least not always legally. Do not ever assume that because a person is an LEO they are also a police officer by way of any legal statute. Legally there can be a big difference under state law between various types of LEOs and not all LEOs are always, or have always been, considered police officers.
By the way LEO equals Law Enforcement Oficer is a yes. Police officer equals LEO is a yes. BUT Law Enforcement Officer equals police is a NO, at least not always legally. Do not ever assume that because a person is an LEO they are also a police officer by way of any legal statute. Legally there can be a big difference under state law between various types of LEOs and not all LEOs are always, or have always been, considered police officers.
porterdog
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DarkKnight01
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I dont, If you have the time to pull out your phone and call 911 and wait for an operator to answer (assuming you dont get put on hold) You probably have time to escape, When it comes to the need of using and/or drawing your weapon its going to happen very quickly, seconds could mean life or death, The first tool I will be drawing will be the one that can defend my life, not the telephone. If I happen to have the time in some strange or odd situation, I may do that, but probably not. Im more worried about the problems at hand, I dont need to be taking my eyes off the BG to be dialing my cell. Id rather keep him in my sights, give him verbal commands and warnings, if he advances he gets shot, if he flee's he lives, then at that time, when you have cleared the area of any other threats, thats when I would be making the call to 911.
my 0.2$ FWIW
I am amazed this post has lasted this long...."you draw your weapon, they run away" end of story, what happens next and how you deal with it, is another post. if your carring legally, and if the scum calls the police.... so what !!! then they sort it out and maybe everybody goes to jail, or they go to jail.... and you sort this out in court, exactly where the scum, does not want to go. If your dealing with all the should have, could have and would haves...... then maybe just letting them rob you would be easier. In life you make your choice and deal with that choices consequences.
It's hard to follow what's been said here, unless you have some knowledge of what the law actually says, rather than a movie/TV show concept.
You can't just decide that someone might be a threat, and point your gun at them. They need to actually be a threat. And if you don't call the police to report the incident, and they do, you will be working from a deficit. After all, if these people were so dangerous, why wouldn't you tell the police? And if it goes to court, don't expect twelve licensed drivers, who probably don't carry a gun, to see things your way.
People with some experience in these situations, including myself, have tried to give some advice here. Feel free not to take it.
You can't just decide that someone might be a threat, and point your gun at them. They need to actually be a threat. And if you don't call the police to report the incident, and they do, you will be working from a deficit. After all, if these people were so dangerous, why wouldn't you tell the police? And if it goes to court, don't expect twelve licensed drivers, who probably don't carry a gun, to see things your way.
People with some experience in these situations, including myself, have tried to give some advice here. Feel free not to take it.
my point is, there are just too many assumptions and seperate scenarios, if you decide the need is real and pull your weapon, yes, you should report it... for a ton of good reasons. good advice speaks for itself....and I am surely open for good advice.
Specialized
Member
I realize that this thread has been well-discussed, but there are some points that need reinforcing, and one that I don't believe I've seen yet. So, here goes:
1. In any confrontation in most states, brandishing (or even allowing another person to realize you're carrying) a weapon is justifiable only when you are at or past the point where using it would be justified; i.e., when three criteria exist: Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy. Deadly force would be justified only when immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent exists.
2. If, for any reason, you have shown yourself to have a concealed weapon, you might want to consider calling the police if only because the perpetrator(s) now know a secret about you. If they call the cops and you're picked up, carrying the very weapon the CV described, you are now two strikes behind the curve. How would they know you were carrying a concealed weapon unless they had seen you use it? As the point was made earlier, you definitely want to represent the box checked "Complainant" on that particular police report, as opposed to the alternative.
3. There are many, many documented shootings, police and civilian, where in the course of a justified shooting the shootee ended up with holes in the side, back, etc. At some point, attackers sometimes break off the attack and in a split second turn after a shot has already been committed to. This is not an automatic condemnation of the shooting, but the final determination will likely hinge upon the shooter's forthrightness, the forensic evidence, and the thoroughness and professionalism of the investigators (in no particular order).
As an aside: there seem to be a fair number of people who are convinced that Massad Ayoob is some sort of total sham, with various reasons being given for this opinion. Given what I know of his background, what I've seen of his standing in the legal, law-enforcement, and military training arenas, and what I know of him personally through his classes and my own interactions with him in social, competitive, and professional settings, I find opinions of this ilk to be baseless and a total pantload. His qualifications on paper can be found here,
and his writings and the writings about him and his expertise are known and well-respected by experts worldwide. Whether one likes it or not, he enjoys the reputation as one of the preeminent voices of truth in the areas of forensic investigation and legal ramifications of force-on-force encounters. Having said that, I believe what he, his colleagues, and other training professionals always say: each instructor/pundit/writer's opinions are just that -- opinions -- and should be weighed against other learned opinions and one's own world view. As an example, many people are fervent believers in Ken Hackathorn's wisdom, but many think that his drills are unnecessarily and unjustifiably reckless. Does that nullify his opinions, or his experience, or his ability to teach?
Maybe those who feel they know better, or feel they have to trash someone personally and repeatedly (something I was told was not allowed on this forum, by the way) in this public venue, might like to publish their own curriculum vitae and body of work so that we might objectively judge the veracity of their opinions in a like manner? Elmer, perhaps you'd care to go first?
1. In any confrontation in most states, brandishing (or even allowing another person to realize you're carrying) a weapon is justifiable only when you are at or past the point where using it would be justified; i.e., when three criteria exist: Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy. Deadly force would be justified only when immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent exists.
2. If, for any reason, you have shown yourself to have a concealed weapon, you might want to consider calling the police if only because the perpetrator(s) now know a secret about you. If they call the cops and you're picked up, carrying the very weapon the CV described, you are now two strikes behind the curve. How would they know you were carrying a concealed weapon unless they had seen you use it? As the point was made earlier, you definitely want to represent the box checked "Complainant" on that particular police report, as opposed to the alternative.
3. There are many, many documented shootings, police and civilian, where in the course of a justified shooting the shootee ended up with holes in the side, back, etc. At some point, attackers sometimes break off the attack and in a split second turn after a shot has already been committed to. This is not an automatic condemnation of the shooting, but the final determination will likely hinge upon the shooter's forthrightness, the forensic evidence, and the thoroughness and professionalism of the investigators (in no particular order).
As an aside: there seem to be a fair number of people who are convinced that Massad Ayoob is some sort of total sham, with various reasons being given for this opinion. Given what I know of his background, what I've seen of his standing in the legal, law-enforcement, and military training arenas, and what I know of him personally through his classes and my own interactions with him in social, competitive, and professional settings, I find opinions of this ilk to be baseless and a total pantload. His qualifications on paper can be found here,
and his writings and the writings about him and his expertise are known and well-respected by experts worldwide. Whether one likes it or not, he enjoys the reputation as one of the preeminent voices of truth in the areas of forensic investigation and legal ramifications of force-on-force encounters. Having said that, I believe what he, his colleagues, and other training professionals always say: each instructor/pundit/writer's opinions are just that -- opinions -- and should be weighed against other learned opinions and one's own world view. As an example, many people are fervent believers in Ken Hackathorn's wisdom, but many think that his drills are unnecessarily and unjustifiably reckless. Does that nullify his opinions, or his experience, or his ability to teach?
Maybe those who feel they know better, or feel they have to trash someone personally and repeatedly (something I was told was not allowed on this forum, by the way) in this public venue, might like to publish their own curriculum vitae and body of work so that we might objectively judge the veracity of their opinions in a like manner? Elmer, perhaps you'd care to go first?
I was responding to this post.
Perhaps I was harsh. I apologize.
My CV is minuscule compared to his. He's been to more schools and conferences than I would have ever had the time to go to.
But most here on this board know nothing of his background, yet quote him, and consider him an expert. Gunwriters tend to create their own legend.
I had a personal experience where I felt he was less than straightforward. I feel he overstates his police "career." (Not that there's anything wrong with Auxiliary Police, even in a tiny New Hampshire town.) His articles on certain products may or may not have been colored by financial interest.
Other than that, I enjoy his writing, even if I occasionally disagree with what he writes.
Specialized
Member
Have to agree with you there. Many people in the shooting sports community, law enforcement, etc., exhibit the sort of blind faith you speak of. My theory is that each of the so-called experts have their own area of special expertise, but have to weigh in on many other areas as well because it is expected of them. Doesn't make them bad or good; it just is what it is.
The man that probably taught me the most about defensive or combat shooting taught me another important lesson as well, one that I didn't believe in at first. That man, a former colleague of Ayoob's and also an old-time Chapman disciple, told me that I should go to as many schools and instructors as I could, keep an open mind, and retain that knowledge from each that worked the best for me. He said that everyone has their own style, and that everyone must discover their own portfolio of techniques and methods that let them shoot their best. Like I said, I didn't believe it at first, but I've found that he was absolutely right. And he should know, he's trained US cops, military and special forces units, intelligence agents, even special forces and VIP protection units from other countries for the past fifty years. Every school I've been to has shown me things I've kept, and things I've discarded. All of them have been useful in some way or another.
Back to the thread at hand -- the best takeaway from it seems to be that the gun shouldn't even appear until it's time to use it. That's not a simple decision, and the decision point is later in the process for a CCW holder than a cop. It's incredibly difficult to know what's "right" in either case. Here's hoping if any one of us has to make it, we do the right thing.
The man that probably taught me the most about defensive or combat shooting taught me another important lesson as well, one that I didn't believe in at first. That man, a former colleague of Ayoob's and also an old-time Chapman disciple, told me that I should go to as many schools and instructors as I could, keep an open mind, and retain that knowledge from each that worked the best for me. He said that everyone has their own style, and that everyone must discover their own portfolio of techniques and methods that let them shoot their best. Like I said, I didn't believe it at first, but I've found that he was absolutely right. And he should know, he's trained US cops, military and special forces units, intelligence agents, even special forces and VIP protection units from other countries for the past fifty years. Every school I've been to has shown me things I've kept, and things I've discarded. All of them have been useful in some way or another.
Back to the thread at hand -- the best takeaway from it seems to be that the gun shouldn't even appear until it's time to use it. That's not a simple decision, and the decision point is later in the process for a CCW holder than a cop. It's incredibly difficult to know what's "right" in either case. Here's hoping if any one of us has to make it, we do the right thing.
My wife was driving and was almost forced off the road by a moron who then followed her and repeated tried to cut off her car and finally she got free enough to grab her phone and call 911 and call for help/
she was armed and told the operator that and was pulling in to a parking spot when she noticed he was back in behind her and pinching her car against the car in front, she got out and ducked and aimed her pistol at him and he squealed rubber out of the lot. she was already on 911 calling it in when the operator asked her if she was driving a BMW and she said yeah why,? and the operator said he was calling in on another line saying she was drunk and waving a gun around, cops caught him, he was charged with road rage. but the DA office dropped it to a plea of reckless driving.
she was armed and told the operator that and was pulling in to a parking spot when she noticed he was back in behind her and pinching her car against the car in front, she got out and ducked and aimed her pistol at him and he squealed rubber out of the lot. she was already on 911 calling it in when the operator asked her if she was driving a BMW and she said yeah why,? and the operator said he was calling in on another line saying she was drunk and waving a gun around, cops caught him, he was charged with road rage. but the DA office dropped it to a plea of reckless driving.
Elmer, I thought she wasn't supposed to "brandish" her weapon until the bad guy's hands were around her throat. You know, just to make sure her life was in jeopardy before using "deadly force".
"Father Knows Best", stop slaughtering so many sacred cows... this thread is getting messy.
Specialized
Member
If someone had me, and my car, cornered with their car and was making gestures like they were going to use that car as a weapon, I'd be shooting. Sounds like she did pretty well -- she managed to use Mr. Rage's apprehension re: getting shot to defuse a fully escalated confrontation. He had the ability -- a mobile car under his control, vs. a cornered car and occupant; the opportunity -- she was already cornered; and jeopardy -- he had fully demonstrated that he wasn't going to disengage and was, in fact, escalating his involvement. The fact that she didn't shoot doesn't take anything away from the fact that she was justified.
The standard is not theoretical at all -- it is what a reasonable person would take to be justified. I would challenge anyone to find a judge or jury that could not come to the same conclusion she did.
The standard is not theoretical at all -- it is what a reasonable person would take to be justified. I would challenge anyone to find a judge or jury that could not come to the same conclusion she did.
The propensity of folks here to put words in someone else's mouth amazes me......
In my state, and in most other's I'm sure, a vehicle can be considered a deadly weapon. He attempted to run her off the road repeatedly, then continued his assault into a parking lot. She was reasonably in fear for her life. Deadly force situation. She didn't have to shoot, but she could have legally.
If you disagree with what I say, make your point. Don't make up words I didn't say.
Perhaps you don't have a point.....
I think we can discuss each other's thoughts without all the sarcasm.
We're not going to turn this thread into a gunwriter bashing thread either. You need too be able to take something useful from every post here. Even if it's what not to do.
Jeff
We're not going to turn this thread into a gunwriter bashing thread either. You need too be able to take something useful from every post here. Even if it's what not to do.
Jeff
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