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You might want to rethink your Home Defense gun

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by GunnyUSMC, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Well said Gunny (post #69)... How anyone reacts when the deal goes down is hard to predict - the well trained macho type freezes or runs - the quiet librarian type that never was in a fight (and we're talking male or female here...) might just turn into a tiger and do things in the moment that they can't explain afterwards.... and so it goes.

    I consider myself lucky to have survived my years in law enforcement - after five and half years on the job I was totally un-prepared for the day I actually needed to shoot.... One of the after-burn things for me? I made a point of learning everything I could about street survival and the finer points of using a shotgun when it's all on the line... for my remaining years as a cop. Fortunately the knowledge wasn't needed except for when I became a supervisor then a watch commander years later. As a result of me experience and all that I learned later on - I was very able to counsel and deal with young officers that ended up in shooting situations.... since I'd been there myself... that includes the Internal Affairs end of things after a shooting... (justified? not justified? within Department policy or not? were the surrounding circumstances such that the tactics employed were appropriate or not....) All of these internal matters only came after a state's attorney had decided whether any criminal actions were appropriate after investigation and only involved the officer's employment...

    All of this is for police officers but a good deal of it does apply to anyone involved in a deadly force incident... First will come the preliminary investigation - then the decision as to whether the incident warrants criminal prosecution or not... but that's only the first part... The second part will wait until after that criminal side - then will come the civil side and more time in and out of court rooms than you ever want to think about... but that's something for another day...
     
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  2. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    An interesting discussion Gunny.
    In some respects, I am like you and Lemaymiami. I have a 3-gun rack on the wall next to the bed. On the top is an AK with a 40 rd. banana in it. Because of that magazine, there is no rifle on the middle rack but on the bottom, I have a 12 ga. SxS with double triggers. I "squared" the curved bottom on one side of the rack so the shottie doesn't roll, then put a small square shelf there that holds 4 - 3" shells. Two are 00 Buck and 2 are #4 Buck (15 & 40 pellets, respectively) and I would grab that first. I also have my .357 Mag in its holster hanging from the empty middle shelf with 2 additional Speedloaders on the belt. At that point, I am actually in the corner of the bedroom, diagonally opposite the door. If anybody comes through that door without IDing themselves, they get a cloud of 55 pellets from less than 10' (muzzle to door). If there is sufficient time, I would load the other two shells and grab the .357 as well. If not, I would just grab the revolver and belt.
     
  3. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    I never tell anyone my current defense set-up.

    -And even knowing that someone died because they tried to kill me weighs heavy on my soul.
     
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  4. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    The carbine version is my go-to! I'd love to have pistol version and the tax stamp to convert it to an SBR.
     
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  5. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    If you were attacked by a vicious or rabid animal, would you feel bad for protecting your life in a situation like that? I seriously doubt if you would.
    Now, replace the word "animal" with the word "person" and repeat that first sentence. In this instance, a "person" who is assaulting you is really not a "person" anymore. They have lowered themselves to a level at or below that of animals. Waste no regret on these pieces of trash as they are not worth it.
     
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  6. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    The person in question was the kid brother of an old friend. This kid had become a meth addict and dealer while I was out of state on a job. His buddy and source of the drugs had stabbed his mother and burned down his trailer before the cops caught him. He promptly escaped and hid out with his girl friend.
    I knew nothing about any of this.
    The temperature that day hit 112 degrees. I offered a couple of local kids a ride to the local swimming hole. They invited their friends, etc.
    The old crew cab was stuffed.
    My little sister stepped off of a drop-off and started flailing. As I charged over to pull her out I saw something familiar float by - my driver's license. This kid had stolen my wallet and was tossing everything that he couldn't use into the river.
    That was the end of the swimming trip.
    A few hours later the thief was picked up by the police (turned in by his girl friend).
    Shortly thereafter his meth-head buddy shot up my Grandmother's house. I caught him while he was trying to reload and knocked him loose from the gun.
    He ran off, was caught by the police, and killed himself in detention.

    In spite of all logic, I still feel bad about his death.
     
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  7. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    Waldo, an ending like that IS sad but remember - it was SELF-INFLICTED. You were NOT the direct cause of his death which may have been brought on by withdrawal symptoms while in detention. His mind was already fried from the drugs so, in a sense, he was a "rabid animal" and could no longer think logically.
    You have likely heard stories of how animals in a leg-hold trap have been known to chew off their leg in order to escape. This person either was or was likely to have been charged with a felony for shooting the house and would have had to do some serious time. If he knew this, he may have chosen this suicide as a way to avoid prison, esp. if he was having withdrawal pain as well.
     
  8. IdaD

    IdaD Member

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    The first thing I'd reach for is a Marlin 30-30 loaded with 125 grain hollow points - 6 in the tube and 10 more on the stock. Not very tactical but I've had it almost 30 years and I'm comfortable using it, I'm more accurate than I would be with a handgun and it would hit plenty hard with reasonably fast follow-up shots. Over-penetration isn't a huge concern because of the way my home and neighborhood are laid out. What can I say, I like the classics. Odds are we'll never need it.
     
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  9. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Even the lives I have directly had a hand in ending I feel no guilt over. For every single one made choices in their life that put them at the business end of a barrel. For example if you make the decision to shoot a mortar at a helicopter, don't be surprised if they shoot back with a 30mm chain gun.

    Chances are if you live out in the middle of nowhere you are more likely to put down a 4 legged vermin than 2. And a hunting round like a 30-30 will work on 2 and 4 legs just as easily.
     
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  10. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    I am with you. Taking or harming another living being should never be taken lightly. Even if legally and morally in the right, bringing harm to another living being should never be taken lightly and like you would weigh heavily on my soul.

    I have no issues with those that liken putting down a rabid animal but frankly those “rabid animals” likely have good people in their lives that will morn at least in some way for the loss and failings of that person.

    Harming another should never be easy imo. But hey I am just some low speed high drag guy who prefers diplomacy to baseball bat diplomacy.
     
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  11. Jessesky

    Jessesky Member

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    I have a 590a1, with a light mount, 8 rounds in the magazine in “cruiser ready” and 7 in a side saddle.

    Even that I think is overkill but I like it. 15 rounds of buckshot should do the trick. And the hit probability should be much higher with a long gun in a stressful situation
     
  12. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    40-82 writes:

    Signature material..
     
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  13. medic68

    medic68 Member

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    G20 10MM with two reloads and a hundred pound German Shepherd on one side of the bed and level IIIA vest with a Benelli M4 number 3 buck on the other.
     
  14. medic68

    medic68 Member

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    ABSOLUTELY correct! Our home is a "front to back split", you enter (through a steel framed storm door then solid core exterior door) into a front room with no access to the rest of the house except a stairway "up". Great kill zone, and we control the high ground. Two cameras on the front door, matrixed to HD screens, one in the master one in the main hall upstairs at the alarm panel. Everything battery back-upped. Access to the basement is from the main floor (2nd) or a door in from the garage. Steel entry door at that point, outer garage access via steel storm door and solid core beyond that. Interior garage camera on that door. 80 pound husky sleeps in the garage, 100 pound German Shepherd in the house. Sides and back of property is fenced with 30K lumen lights at all approaches. Laser sensor at back door access and a camera, mud room beyond door with a second door pass that to 2nd level. Interior is "back lit" with small motion LED's. I couldn't think of anything else to give us enough warning past what I've done.
     
  15. boom boom
    • Contributing Member

    boom boom Contributing Member

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    One of the issues that makes the shotgun less appealing now to me for home defense than it was is that many indoor ranges do not allow it and practice is necessary to maintain competence.

    In my current location, I have to drive several hours away to practice with one while a lot of ranges around me allow firing a rifle. Lack of training can show up when you shortstroke a pump, have issues with a gas system, have problems with recoil management (and hitting with it as the shotgun is no cone of death), reloading can be a pain especially without practice, and if shooting things like slugs, overpenetration can be an issue. Shotguns do not often tie up but when they do, like revolvers, they are often down for the count during a fight. Use by others with no or little training can also be problematic especially if you have significant others in your life and home.

    For that reason, I have switched to a rifle caliber carbine for home defense, my significant other can operate it, it has minimal recoil, and less penetration using specific self defense ammunition, with a large magazine. PCC's are kind of in between a handgun and a rifle in utility and may work as a longarm for some.

    Whatever you have, practice is necessary to maintain competence and you best resolve your doubts about using deadly force in self defense before you are confronted with a situation. It is unwise to treat the firearm as a magic talisman that repels invaders magically (the old racking of the shotgun trope for example).
     
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  16. BigSteve57

    BigSteve57 Member

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    There are other things we did such as smart home remote controlled interior and exterior lights.

    The way to think about these kinds of problems IMHO is to not try and solve EVERY problem beforehand because you'll never think of everything. Rather, it's what the experts that gamed our home called "making the problem box smaller". In the case of hardened interior doors we know for example that anyone that broke in on the 1st floor had to come in a window and can not go to the basement to hide or escape. I also know that anyone that broke into the basement had to do it via our window wells and can not go up to the 1st floor. They also can not get out via the main doors due to double cylinder locks on the security storm doors. There are just some cases we don't have to think about: i.e. smaller problem box.

    Make a short list of the likeliest scenarios and use any cases you've read about to help in that list creation. In other words, take the likeliest scenarios such as waking up in bed to guns pointed at you and taking steps to make that case almost 100% UNlikely. Then take other cases and work the list until you run of of money LOL.
     
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  17. medic68

    medic68 Member

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    I think what we've done guarantees we won't wake up to guns in the face. You've got to:
    1. Make your approach without being seen.
    2. Get in through a secured door and interior door without tripping an alarm on either one, or entering through a 1st floor alarmed window.
    3. Get past a dog :fire:
    4. Get to the 2nd floor as the basement is not accessible from the 1st floor. If you do break in to the basement your locked into it.
    I'm not saying we're 100% safe but it's going to take a governmental dynamic entry not your average IQ'd home invader's knock on the door
     
  18. Browning

    Browning Member

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    Yeah, I have electronic ears. Lights on everything too.

    It's just that ears are behind grabbing my glasses, a gun (which have lights on them), and maybe putting on body armor and footwear.
     
  19. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    My 870 got a ten round tube extension and it has a 25 round sling for a total load out of 35 rounds!
     
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