You worry about Bears... read this!

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Something I may have missed but I haven't seen here is how the outcome changes when there is more than one armed human in the encounter. Gun or spray the bear can/will only attack one at a time which all but ensures the eventual outcome.

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Something I may have missed but I haven't seen here is how the outcome changes when there is more than one armed human in the encounter. Gun or spray the bear can/will only attack one at a time which all but ensures the eventual outcome.

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That is a really good point. Here are two examples with very different outcomes.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/field-notes/2011/09/officials-mt-hunter-killed-bullet-not-bear

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLsOcbizFe8
 
To each their own

I am not against bear spray as it is very effective.

BUT relying on that alone is foolish ,in my not so humble opinion.

I would MUCH rather have a carbine in a REAL bear caliber in hand.

But I don't go to the outhouse or deep woods and do my 'business' and carry a long gun at the same time.

I do wear a chest rig with a REAL caliber and I practice with it at various distances under as much stress as I can simulate.

Not perfect,but I decided that actually using a bear to attack me ,so as to practice was not viable :evil:.
 
Never enter bear country on foot without a powerful firearm and the skill to use it well. (If this is not permitted, do not go.)
Hmm, either I can't go home or LA county sheriff needs to change his stance on issuing CCW's to normal people!
 
Massad Ayoob, in the Backwoodsman, has a blog and he linked to an article on defense from bears with guns. Very enlightening.
Damn...bears are carrying guns now? It's getting to where it's not safe to leave one's house anymore. Next thing you know, they'll be wearing body armor! Did Ayoob say what you're supposed to do when you encounter a bear with a gun?

Reminds me of that article I read where a bear had killed and partially eaten a guy. The rangers found the bear, killed it, and in its stomach - along with human parts - they found the hiker's .357.
Are you telling us the bear ate the guy's gun? That they found that the bear had ingested human body parts along with an entire .357 revolver that had been fired six times and was now empty?

I'm sorry, but that sounds a little tough to...er...stomach. If I were watching a movie where a vicious bear had eaten not only part of the outdoorsman, but the guy's .357 Ruger GP-100 as well, I'd be...well...astonished to say the least. Are you sure they weren't talking about the bullets...or some brass...and not the gun?

RugerSS_6_4.jpg

If one uses a heavy bullet and aims for the mouth or nose of the beast and not the head, a .357 can be very effective in stopping a bear. Most people think the brain resides behind the skull at the top of the head. It actually is directly behind the nose. Skull shots are notoriously ineffective.

Bear.jpg

Strange as it sounds, a good knife also is very effective against bears and a number of people have killed larger and heavier bears with Bowie knives and other effective blades. One excellent choice is the Cold Steel OSS. Lighweight, long and double edged, it's a scary knife and an exceptional weapon against man and beast. Not too long ago I read a story about a man who saved his wife from a black bear. She was cooking meat on a grill and he was umm...inspecting some nearby weeds...when he heard her scream. He counter-attacked the bruin with a locking 4-inch knife and mortally wounded it. But there are stories from our day going back well over two hundred years of successful knife attacks where men have prevailed over bears. (Not so many with grizzly bears, however.)
 
Damn...bears are carrying guns now? It's getting to where it's not safe to leave one's house anymore.

..and just think of all those right wing kooks defending the right to arm bears!

Did Ayoob say what you're supposed to do when you encounter a bear with a gun?

Ayoob also says, you'd better not be caught using reloads or you'll be going to jail.
 
Ayoob also says you'd better not be caught using reloads or you'll be going to jail.
Ayoob sometimes gets carried away when it comes to self defense. If you shoot for sport, it really makes no difference. Guns can be used for sport and yes, a gun is a weapon. If someone threatens you in your own home, you didn't ask to be threatened. Whether you use a kitchen knife or a target pistol, you're justified in using it to defend your life.

Now he may have been talking about guns carried specifically for self defense. In those cases, yes, hair triggers and specially loaded ammo might cause a problem. That's why you should talk to an attorney before you start telling your side of the story to a cop. Unless your name is Hillary Clinton, they'll do anything they can to drive nails into your coffin. I used to think of prosecutors as the good guys, but those were the good ole' days!
 
Ayoob also says, you'd better not be caught using reloads or you'll be going to jail.
Have you actually read or heard what he says? Cause that ain't it.
 
i think a .44 mag revolver is a good idea cause those bears most likely to be on top of you after it knocks your long gun out. semi autos will jam in the bear fur. just watch bear attacks on youtube. they get on people quick!
 
wondering why Bear Spray didn't do the trick, maybe no direct hit?

http://mtstandard.com/news/local/so...cle_c8a7c60b-596f-5deb-a970-127e07dc7a37.html

There was another incident on this same trail around Sept 13 while i was up there.

http://cordilleramontana.worldnow.c...nded-grizzly-prompts-trail-closure-near-ennis

Story in the local paper said hunting guide with clients on horseback encountered Grizzly and cubs on the trail. Bear raised up then charged them. They stated they yelled and had bear spray but couldn't use it due to wind conditions. U.S. Forest Service Facebook page said that there was possibly a wounded Grizzly in area so someone in the party seemed to have used a firearm but there were no details on what they used. No one was injured in the hunting party. Forest Service went up the next day but found no sign of the bears or any traces of blood. They closed the trail for a few weeks but had just reopened it last week. I wouldn't go up there without both bear spray and a firearm.
 
"Despite yelling, using bear spray, and rolling into a ball to play dead, the bear chewed on the man and jumped on him."

Guess the bear didn't read the label.

One thing about a big piece of lead through the noggen, they don't go run up and try to chew on you later.

Deaf
 
If you have FB look up Todd Orr, he posted some pics, video and first hand account of what happened. *Warning Graphic*

One tough guy walking out and driving himself to emergency

If you don't have FB here is the story Todd posted

Grizzly 10/1/16
Hello everyone.
Thought I should share yesterday morning's Grizzly incident.
I took an early morning hike in the Madison valley to scout for elk. Knowing that bears are common throughout southwest Montana, I hollered out "hey bear" about every 30 seconds so as to not surprise any bears along the trail.
About three miles in, I stepped out into an open meadow and hollered again. A few more steps and I spotted a sow Grizzly bear with cubs on the trail at the upper end of the meadow. The sow saw me right away and they ran a short distance up the trail. But suddenly she turned and charged straight my way. I yelled a number of times so she knew I was human and would hopefully turn back. No such luck. Within a couple seconds, she was nearly on me. I gave her a full charge of bear spray at about 25 feet. Her momentum carried her right through the orange mist and on me.
I went to my face in the dirt and wrapped my arms around the back of my neck for protection. She was on top of me biting my arms, shoulders and backpack. The force of each bite was like a sledge hammer with teeth. She would stop for a few seconds and then bite again. Over and over. After a couple minutes, but what seemed an eternity, she disappeared.
Stunned, I carefully picked myself up. I was alive and able to walk so I headed back down the trail towards the truck 3 miles below. As I half hiked and jogged down the trail, I glanced at my injuries. I had numerous bleeding puncture wounds on my arms and shoulder but I knew I would survive and thanked god for getting me through this. I hoped the bleeding wasn't too significant. I really didn't want to stop to dress the wounds. I wanted to keep moving and put distance between us.
About five or ten minutes down the trail, I heard a sound and turned to find the Griz bearing down at 30 feet. She either followed me back down the trail or cut through the trees and randomly came out on the trail right behind me. Whatever the case, she was instantly on me again. I couldn't believe this was happening a second time! Why me? I was so lucky the first attack, but now I questioned if I would survive the second.
Again I protected the back of my neck with my arms, and kept tight against the ground to protect my face and eyes. She slammed down on top of me and bit my shoulder and arms again. One bite on my forearm went through to the bone and I heard a crunch. My hand instantly went numb and wrist and fingers were limp and unusable. The sudden pain made me flinch and gasp for breath. The sound triggered a frenzy of bites to my shoulder and upper back. I knew I couldn't move or make a sound again so I huddled motionless. Another couple bites to my head and a gash opened above my ear, nearly scalping me. The blood gushed over my face and into my eyes. I didn't move. I thought this was the end. She would eventually hit an artery in my neck and I would bleed out in the trail... But I knew that moving would trigger more bites so a laid motionless hoping it would end.
She suddenly stopped and just stood on top of me. I will never forgot that brief moment. Dead silence except for the sound of her heavy breathing and sniffing. I could feel and her breath on the back of my neck, just inches away. I could feel her front claws digging into my lower back below my backpack where she stood. I could smell the terrible pungent odor she emitted. For thirty seconds she stood there crushing me. My chest was smashed into the ground and forehead in the dirt. When would the next onslaught of biting began. I didn't move.
And then she was gone.
I tried to peek out without moving but my eyes were full of blood and I couldn't see. I thought that if she came back a third time I would be dead, so I had to do something. Staying in position on the ground, I slowly reached under my chest to grab at the pistol I was unable to get to earlier. I felt I needed something to save my life. The pistol wasn't there. I groped around again but nothing. I wiped the blood from one eye and looked around.
No bear.
The pistol and holster were lying five feet to my left. The bear's ferocious bites and pulling had ripped the straps from the pack and the holster attached to it. Now trashed, that backpack may have helped prevent many more serious bites on my back and spine.
I picked everything up and moved down the trail again. I couldn't believe I had survived two attacks. Double lucky!
Blood was still dripping off my head and both elbows and my shirt was soaked to the waist and into my pants. But a quick assessment told me I could make it another 45 minutes to the truck without losing too much blood.
I continued the jog just wanting to put more distance between that sow and I.
At the trailhead was one other vehicle. I really hoped that person didn't run into the same bear.
I snapped a couple quick photos and a video of my wounds, laid some jackets over the truck seat and headed for town. I stopped a rancher along the way and asked him to make a call to the hospital. When I got into cell service, I made a quick call to my girlfriend to ask how her morning was going, before freaking her out and asking her to bring me a change of clean clothes to the hospital.
Another call to 911 and I gave the operator a quick run down of my injuries and asked her to call the hospital and give them a heads up that I was ten minutes out.
Moments later I was met at the front door by the doctor, nurse and an officer. I had to ask the officer to open the door, put my truck in park, and unbuckle my seat belt. My left arm was useless. He was impressed I had taken the effort to buckle.
Once inside, the x-rays revealed only a chip out of the ulna bone in my forearm. Following was eight hours of stitching to put me back together. Most were arm and shoulder punctures and tears. A 5" gash along the side of my head will leave a nasty scar, but I'm hoping my balding doesn't come on too quickly and leave that one exposed. :)
And finally, this morning, numerous deep bruises and scrapes are showing up from the bites that didn't quite break the skin. Dark bruising in the shape of claws, line across my lower back and butt where the bear stood on me. Also a few more chest bruises and facial abrasions from being smashed and slammed into the ground.
Not my best day, but I'm alive.
So thankful I'm here to share with all of you. :)
In a couple weeks I will have to clean out the truck a little better. My girlfriend says it looks like I had gutted an elk in the drivers seat.
Todd Orr. Skyblade Knives.
 
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I can not imagine a worse nightmare than surviving a bear attack like that.
I have heard that when blacks attack they start to feed on the victim but it seems not the case with grizzly.

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Wondering why the guy didn't have gun in hand after the first attack???

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Wondering why the guy didn't have gun in hand after the first attack???
Well, his fb page showes a hunter. So I guess he read the label on the bear spray can and believed it. But the bear could not read and thus out of ignorance kept coming.

And I guess they will have to amend those 'studies' above to record a 'fail' of the bear spray.

Deaf
 
All well and good for the first go around but if I am walking away from the first attack my gun will be in my hand until I am at the hospital.

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All well and good for the first go around but if I am walking away from the first attack my gun will be in my hand until I am at the hospital.

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If you have a hand left to use.

And remember folks, those 'studies' showed bear spray never failed, not even once, people using it never fumbled, never fail to even not be able to use it. Kind of fishy, right?

Deaf
 
I don't know if any studies of actual incidents that showed where bear spray was 100%. Got a good example to share?

Most people think the brain resides behind the skull at the top of the head. It actually is directly behind the nose. Skull shots are notoriously ineffective.

Actually, the brain is at the top of the skull AND behindish the eyes, but the eyes tend to be a bit lateral on the outside.

Skull shots work well. "Head" shots do not as people often confuse the hair for being he limits of the head. The actual skeletal structure is much smaller than the perceived head. That is partially where folks get into trouble.
 
If you have a hand left to use.

And remember folks, those 'studies' showed bear spray never failed, not even once, people using it never fumbled, never fail to even not be able to use it. Kind of fishy, right?

Deaf
Yeah, Deaf- where is the case study that say bear spray is 100% effective? Can you provide a link?

Since you have selectively chosen to exclude the key parts of data that stem from the real-life incidents regarding the bear spray vs gun debate, due to your mental bias, I've highlighted them again here for you.


We found no significant difference in success rates (i.e., success being when the bear was stopped in its aggressive behavior) associated with long guns (76%) and handguns (84%). Moreover, firearm bearers suffered the same injury rates in close encounters with bears whether they used their firearms or not.

http://www.polarbearsinternational.org/sites/default/files/efficacy_of_firearms_for_bear_deterrence_in_alaska_2014_01_29_15_23_07_utc.pdf


Red pepper spray stopped bears’ undesirable behavior 92% of the time when used on brown bears, 90% for black bears, and 100% for polar bears.
Of all persons carrying sprays, 98% were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_cougar/bear/files/JWM_BearSprayAlaska.pdf

Let's see, which are better odds, Deaf? Suffering injuries 50% of the time or 2% of the time?

Here is the other thing no one ever mentions. Bears are protected species, by and large. So here is what happens. Hunter buys bear spray even though they don't "trust" it (sound familiar Deaf?), then if/when they are involved in some sort of bear encounter/attack and are "forced" to shoot the bear, guess what they claim to avoid the penalties? The bear spray didn't work...
 
I live in the Huron National Forest. While walking normally, I carry my .45 ACP primary as usual. If for any reason, I am planning to spend any more time than usual off-road and deep in the woods, that changes to 10mm. Black bear is the worst of predators in my area, yet I feel far safer with the 10 than my normal primary. Seeing a movie recently called Backcountry, which is loosely based on fact, where Missy Peregrym watches in horror, as a black bear drags her fiancé out of a tent and pretty much eats him, has done nothing but bolster thoughts on my now 27 year old choice. Still, I feel a bit better about nearly always having the .45, and not nearly so naked.
 
Blacks eat people, I first heard of it as a young boy from my grandfather who's family had a funeral home in the back of their hardware store in Northern MN.
He told of being sent out as a young man to bag up what was left of a man attacked by a bear.
Recently I've heard of blacks in AK and CO that have taken down humans and were found feeding on them.
It happens.

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I remember back when seat belts were first installed in new cars. Many folks said that using a seat belt might make it so they could not get out of a burning or sinking car. This was their prime excuse for not using them, even tho studies showed their effectiveness for other crashes outweighed those minuscule risks. I see the same thing when it comes to the use of bear spray. Folks find one or two instances of where it was used improperly or just did not work on a particular bear in a single scenario and use it as the basis for not using it at all, and to justify bashing others that do use it.
 
You always make good points, buck.

Here something that I find interesting. This whole thread was started by Deaf to sing the praises of a handguns effectiveness in bear attacks (while simultaneously trashing bear spray) and yet, in the story told above about Todd Orr's attack, his handgun was a complete nonfactor in his ordeal. Talk about irony. But Deaf only focuses on the bear spray aspect. :rolleyes:
 
Hunter buys bear spray even though they don't "trust" it (sound familiar Deaf?), then if/when they are involved in some sort of bear encounter/attack and are "forced" to shoot the bear, guess what they claim to avoid the penalties? The bear spray didn't work...

Since this is the High Road, I suppose you have a cite for that?

Also, what about people who don't shoot the bear (because they aren't armed, or just choose not to shoot) and also report spray failure? Are they lying too, or just the people who subsequently shoot?



Look, there are a heckuva lot of advantages to spray:
-it costs $35 or so; that's lots cheaper than a gun
-the degree of practice needed to use it effectively is much, much less than a gun
-if the bear is mauling your partner, you can spray the furball, vs. trying to shoot the bear but not your partner
-the threshold of use is lower; if you're in a trail thru the willow scrub and see a bear ahead, you can legally loose a giant blast of spray and retreat; with a gun you have to wait until the attack is in progress

OTOH:
-spray doesn't work when you're above treeline and there is a 20MPH wind, which can be a lot of the time in some places
-a predator, two or four legged, can be sufficiently motivated to ignore spray - it makes attacking you unpleasant, not impossible
-it's pretty useless against, say, the people tending the grow op you stumble onto

Everyone should consider their own unique situation and carry one, the other, both, or neither, as appropriate. And they shouldn't assume their choice is right for everyone else.
 
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