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Your definition of DAO

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by MythBuster, Feb 25, 2012.

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  1. MythBuster

    MythBuster member

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    I would like to hear your definition of DAO.

    I would also like to hear how a certain very popular striker fired handgun that is carried at least 98% cocked can be called DAO.
     
  2. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    By definition a single action trigger performs one single task releasing the hammer/striker from a cocked positiion.
    A double action trigger performs two tasks bringing the hammer/striker to the cocked position and then releasing it.
    DAO does not have SA capability.
     
  3. balance 740

    balance 740 Member

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    My definition of DAO would be any pistol that is completely decocked, until the trigger cocks and releases the hammer/striker and fires the pistol, on every shot.

    I'd consider most of the pistols with constant triggers, with the same trigger pull from the first to the last shot, as constant action pistols, no matter if they start off pre-cocked or fully-cocked.

    I believe "DA" and "DAO" can be used to describe a pistol like a Glock, by their definition, but it sort of makes terms like DA and DAO to be too vague to be used as a solid description about the actions of pistols.
     
  4. jackpinesavages

    jackpinesavages member

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    Double Action Only, meaning the longer trigger pull of three action selections: DAO, SA, DAK.
     
  5. hAkron

    hAkron Member

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    Double action, at least as I understand it, the action of the gun is used to set a striker or hammer into a cocked position (potential energy), then release the hammer or striker (kinetic energy). Where as sigle action assumes a manual (not using the action of the gun) to set the hammer into a cocked position. This would probably be a lot more clearly definable if not for strikers and odd ball actions types found in guns like the P7. Thinking in terms of old cowboy single action cowboy revolvers vs modern DA is an easiervway for me to relate to it. When I think if DAO I think more of internal/unexposed hammers that are fully at rest between shot, where a Glocks striker has some load on the spring after firing would make it, to my mind neither an SA/D, DAO, or SAO. It is impossible to fire an uncocked (trigger fully at rest) Glock, it is also impossible to fully cock a Glock and leave it fully cocked.
     
  6. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    By convoluting the definition of DA by requiring the second action of fully cocking the hammer/striker from a completely. Decocked position really opens a can of worms.
    Now Smith and Colt DAs are no longer DA because their hammer blocks partially cock the hammer a bit when the trigger is all the way foward. A Smith 1076 wouldn't be DA on the first shot when the decocker is used because it only. Drops the hammer to half cock. And dang my CZs are really confusing, I can carry it cocked and locked for a SA first shot or if I can let the hammer all the way down for a DA or I. Caan lower it to half cock and it's like a constant trigger action.
    Wouldn't it be better to say a Glock is double action because the trigger performs two actions and since this is it's only mode it's double action only.
     
  7. ExMachina

    ExMachina Member

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    Applying terminology that evolved out of hammer-fired revolvers to striker-fired semi-autos is never going to lead to a clear-cut answer.
     
  8. Zerodefect

    Zerodefect Member

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    My definition:
    S&W J frame revolvers
    Keltec pistols
    Rugers Keltec copies



    IMO, striker fired pistols are only called "DAO" to please the dogmatic fools that choose weapons for police departments. For a period oftime PD's were huge on wanting DAO guns. They thought they were "safer" or something.

    Hard to believe we were ever that untrained back then......
     
  9. Jim NE

    Jim NE Member

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    My Sigma isn't a DAO pistol, it just more or less functions like one....most of the time.

    My KelTec is a DAO. The two guns are used the same way, for my purposes anyway.

    A DAO pistol can never have a loose, ""disengaged" trigger (except when you're letting the trigger reset itself immediately after a shot).
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2012
  10. Jim NE

    Jim NE Member

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    Hey speaking of this, I saw something on the net about a "DAO" Ruger P-95. Does Ruger still make this model? Or is it some sort of aftermarket alteration?

    Just curious. The reason I don't shoot my P-95 more often is because it's DA/SA.
     
  11. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    They were most certianly Dead on Arrival. lol. sorry I got fat fingers too.
     
  12. balance 740

    balance 740 Member

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    I have to agree, but only because I can't think of a better alternative at the moment. But as vague as the term DA has become, what good is it when using it to describe something?

    I have a hard time calling a pistol that is 98% pre-cocked, a DA or DAO pistol, just like I have a hard time calling a DA revolver pre-cocked, even if it is technically, by definition. Technically, are there any modern SA pistols, since almost all modern SA pistols will push a FPB out of the way and lower the sear with a trigger pull before firing?

    Should series 80 1911s be considered DA?
     
  13. nipprdog

    nipprdog Member

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    Brand??? Since it's not Glock, I'm guessing XD????? :confused:
     
  14. Nakanokalronin

    Nakanokalronin Member

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    DAO means the trigger pull will do more then one action. Considering the Glock trigger pulls the striker back slightly and then releases it, it can be defined as DAO weather it's a short pull or not. Some guns may seem like DAO because of the trigger set-up but their trigger pulls only release the striker/hammer making them SAO.

    Of course, some are more obvious then others but it all comes down to the mechanics of the fire control group, not how the trigger feels when you pull it.
     
  15. Jim NE

    Jim NE Member

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    :) Every time I try to write DAO, I WANT to write DOA...but usually catch myself. Despite their rough early years and my own brief problems, I actually like my Sigma.
     
  16. 2wheels

    2wheels Member

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    People call Glocks (and some similar guns) double action, and they may even be technically considered DAO, but they aren't IMHO. They occupy a middle ground between DAO and SAO because of their partially cocked striker.

    Call them what you will, I basically consider Glocks to be hammerless single action only pistols with a crappy trigger pull. I refer to them as striker fired to set them apart from more tradition action types.

    If I pull the trigger and have a light strike and can't pull the trigger again to restrike the same round without racking the slide, it isn't double action.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2012
  17. Nakanokalronin

    Nakanokalronin Member

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    2 wheels, technically your talking about a DAO pull with second strike capability. It can be confusing at times since there are slight variances in how the triggers are defined and striker fired guns make it much more difficult.

    I guess you can say that there are striker fired DAO guns and hammer fired DAO guns.

    DAO striker: trigger pull does 2 actions, however the slide needs to be racked by hand or by firing in order to go to the next DAO pull.

    DAO hammer: trigger does 2 actions, however another DAO pull can be accomplished weather the slide has been racked or not.

    SAO striker or hammer: trigger pull does one action and needs the slide to be racked by hand or by firing in order to reset the striker or hammer to provide another SAO pull.
     
  18. balance 740

    balance 740 Member

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    The S&W M&P is considered to be a DAO pistol because when the trigger is pulled and the sear releases the striker, the striker moves rearward a fraction of a millimeter due to a positive sear engagement. It is as close to 100% cocked as you can get without it actually being 100% cocked.

    CZ-75 pistols have an even more positive sear engagement when cocked, and you can actually see the hammer cam back when the trigger is pulled, yet when you cock the hammer on a CZ-75, the pistol is considered to be in SA mode. Go figure.
     
  19. 2wheels

    2wheels Member

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    DAO has traditionally always meant a gun that is able to be cocked and fired merely by pulling the trigger, calling a Glock DAO confuses the terminology we have long used to tell different action types apart. It shares some characteristics with traditional DAO handguns, but it's something different.
     
  20. walt629

    walt629 Member

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    DAO = double action ONLY. A weapon that cannot be used as a single action.

    Single action = Ruger single 6. For the gun to be discharged the hammer must be drawn back and the trigger pulled (short trigger pull) to released the hammer to fire the ammunition . Pulling the trigger will not cock the hammer or advance the ammunition to the next cartridge.

    Double action = Colt Python. Able to discharge weapon by either pulling the trigger to cock and release the hammer (long trigger pull) or pull the hammer back and release it with a trigger pull (short trigger pull). Both actions will advance the next cartridge to firing position.

    Double action ONLY = Colt Detective wo exposed hammer. The ONLY way to fire the weapon is with a "long trigger pull" or DAO action. The act of pulling the trigger cocks the weapon, advances the ammunition to the firing position and releases the hammer to fir the ammunition.

    The above can be applied to semi autos also by examining the way the actions work.

    It would help if you gave the name of the
     
  21. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    IMO

    DA: striker/hammer can be partially pretensioned and/or lack second strike capability, like on a Keltec P3AT/LCP or a GLOCK, as long as the gun would 100% not fire a sensitive Federal primer from the pretensioned position.

    M&P being labeled double-action is an affront to common sense.

    OTOH, I don't think it matters a sniff, one way or another, as long as the gun has good passive safeties on it. As long as the M&P is safe to carry 98% cocked, it should be able to compete in the same contracts and gun games as a Glock. So it's a matter of practical distinction. The trigger pull is decently long/heavy, and the gun is safe, so who cares? If the terminology is shifting to address the more practical aspects, then that's ok by me. Is it fair that the XD missed the boat on this one? No not really. But department requirements and gun game rules are all arbitrary, anyway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2012
  22. Nakanokalronin

    Nakanokalronin Member

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    And that's why striker fired guns have confused things even more. When it was mainly hammer fired handguns, the terminology of SAO,DAO and SA/DA where pretty straight forward but it was still a technical term. With striker fired pistols, the terms are a little more vague.
     
  23. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    It's not just striker-fired guns. Some hammer-fired guns are also pretensioned and lack second strike capability (Keltec P3AT/Ruger LCP). But they're much better described as DAO than SA, IMO.
     
  24. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "IMO, striker fired pistols are only called "DAO" to please the dogmatic fools "

    What is it with all the insults today? Somebody wasn't raised right or is just having a real bad day.
     
  25. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "calling a Glock DAO confuses the terminology "

    Not really. Everyone I know can keep it all straight in terms of practical functioning. In everyday terms, it works like a DAO revolver - your choice is pull the trigger or don't pull the trigger. It certainly doesn't work like any DA/SA or SA gun I know of and let you decock it. Well, unless by decocking you count pulling the trigger on a hopefully empty chamber to disassemble it.

    John
     
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