beatledog7
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Why do we need to have just a few categories and then try to force every trigger system into one of them?
Your definition of DAO
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Nakanokalronin
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I think because it makes it easier for someone to know off the bat what type of trigger a gun has without looking into the mechanics of it. The only way to really know is to look at the internals to see exactly what's going on. I like to know the mechanics of any pistol I'm interested in or own but most would rather not do the research. The way a firearm is designated can also have an effect if it would be considered for a LE agency.
Bottom line, just look at the mechanics of a gun and see how many actions the trigger pull provides and determine for yourself what it is. In reality, the terms are basic and one DAO/SAO gun will not act EXACTLY like another, but they will fall into the same category.
MythBuster
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GLOOB said, "M&P being labeled double-action is an affront to common sense."
Exactly what this is all about.
S&W and some gun writers insist the M&P is DAO. That is 100% BS. A flat out lie.
Exactly what this is all about.
S&W and some gun writers insist the M&P is DAO. That is 100% BS. A flat out lie.
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Balance 740 said, "My definition of DAO would be any pistol that is completely decocked, until the trigger cocks and releases the hammer/striker and fires the pistol, on every shot."
Right on. I know if I bought a pistol because it was supposed to be a DAO because DAO is what I wanted and after getting it home and taking a close look at how it worked and I found out it was basically a 98 or 99% precocked action I would not be happy.
Right on. I know if I bought a pistol because it was supposed to be a DAO because DAO is what I wanted and after getting it home and taking a close look at how it worked and I found out it was basically a 98 or 99% precocked action I would not be happy.
MythBuster
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Zerodefect said, "IMO, striker fired pistols are only called "DAO" to please the dogmatic fools that choose weapons for police departments. For a period oftime PD's were huge on wanting DAO guns. They thought they were "safer" or something."
That is exactly right. For a while many PD's would not let their people carry a SA pistol. Now because S&W lies about their M&P these PD"s can carry their SA gun.
That is exactly right. For a while many PD's would not let their people carry a SA pistol. Now because S&W lies about their M&P these PD"s can carry their SA gun.
wally
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My operational definition is if the gun can deliver a second strike on a primer with nothing more than pulling the trigger then its double action.
Revolvers are where the concept comes from although they also rotate a fresh cartridge into firing position with the second trigger pull -- an obvious benefit.
To me the "second strike" capability only matters when shooting reloads (not fully seated primers happen) or old surplus ammo where primers start to lose their sensitivity and a second strike will often set them off. This would happen to my TTC with the Romanian surplus ammo maybe 1 in 400, being SA the second strike is easily given by thumb cocking the hammer (after waiting to be sure its not a squib). I find it interesting that he much older Polish surplus ammo has much lower dud (if it doesn't go with a second strike) or rounds needing a second strike.
With fresh factory ammo "tap-rack-bang" is a better solution than dumbly pulling the trigger again on a click instead of BANG!
Revolvers are where the concept comes from although they also rotate a fresh cartridge into firing position with the second trigger pull -- an obvious benefit.
To me the "second strike" capability only matters when shooting reloads (not fully seated primers happen) or old surplus ammo where primers start to lose their sensitivity and a second strike will often set them off. This would happen to my TTC with the Romanian surplus ammo maybe 1 in 400, being SA the second strike is easily given by thumb cocking the hammer (after waiting to be sure its not a squib). I find it interesting that he much older Polish surplus ammo has much lower dud (if it doesn't go with a second strike) or rounds needing a second strike.
With fresh factory ammo "tap-rack-bang" is a better solution than dumbly pulling the trigger again on a click instead of BANG!
MythBuster
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links? If your SIL has one look at it yourself. After you do you will see for yourself then you will know.
MythBuster
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"Applying terminology that evolved out of hammer-fired revolvers to striker-fired semi-autos is never going to lead to a clear-cut answer."
Striker or hammer they are still the same. A striker fired gun can still be either a SA or a DAO.
If it is carried more or less fully cocked it is SA.
Striker or hammer they are still the same. A striker fired gun can still be either a SA or a DAO.
If it is carried more or less fully cocked it is SA.
JohnBT
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"I know if I bought a pistol because it was supposed to be a DAO "
It would be your own darn fault for not researching it or at least looking at the gun first before you bought it. I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for you.
It would be your own darn fault for not researching it or at least looking at the gun first before you bought it. I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for you.
The Lone Haranguer
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The pre-set striker (and sometimes hammer) systems, which are technically neither DA nor SA, do blur the line. I would say if pulling the trigger performs any cocking action, AFAIC it is a DAO. I would make a further division: short stroke vs. long stroke. A Glock is a short stroke; a Kahr or S&W Third Generation model (with the pre-set hammer DAO) is a long stroke.
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I did not buy one. I don't intend to ever buy one. My point is they should not call them DAO when they are clearly not.
MythBuster
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"I would say if pulling the trigger performs any cocking action, AFAIC it is a DAO."
OK then you will have to call the SKS rifle and the military trigger on a AR-15 DAO.
The trigger pull on these actualy has more "cocking action" than the M&P.
OK then you will have to call the SKS rifle and the military trigger on a AR-15 DAO.
The trigger pull on these actualy has more "cocking action" than the M&P.
wickedsprint
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My definition is simple. If double action, The trigger accomplishes two actions. In my opinion the Glock is technically a DAO with a light trigger pull that has the same manual of arms as a SAO.
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MythBuster
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"The pre-set striker (and sometimes hammer) systems, which are technically neither DA nor SA, do blur the line"
I agree somewhat. If the striker is "cocked" enough when the gun is carried that the pistol could fire if the striker fell from it's carry position then it could be called SA.
The trigger pull on the M&P moves the striker about .006 or so.
I agree somewhat. If the striker is "cocked" enough when the gun is carried that the pistol could fire if the striker fell from it's carry position then it could be called SA.
The trigger pull on the M&P moves the striker about .006 or so.
wickedsprint
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Not sure how an AR15 could be a DAO, does the trigger do something in addition to dropping the cocked hammer?
The Lone Haranguer
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I am skeptical that a two-stage trigger performs any hammer cocking action on those rifles. But I'm not a "rifle guy," so I could be wrong.balance 740
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The point is that almost any pistol designed recently could be considered "DAO" now, where 50 years ago, "DAO" could be used as a specific description of a trigger action.
Whether or not common sense came into the decision making process or not, the M&P, with it's almost 100% pre cocked striker is considered a DAO pistol. That alone tells me that the "DAO" description doesn't mean much any more.
It can no longer be used as a specific description of a trigger action if the term DAO can be used to describe the vast majority of striker fired pistols that have been designed in the last 30 years, whether or not they are DAO by definition.
That is my only point.
Whether or not common sense came into the decision making process or not, the M&P, with it's almost 100% pre cocked striker is considered a DAO pistol. That alone tells me that the "DAO" description doesn't mean much any more.
It can no longer be used as a specific description of a trigger action if the term DAO can be used to describe the vast majority of striker fired pistols that have been designed in the last 30 years, whether or not they are DAO by definition.
That is my only point.
Wow, there is a lot of confusion on this thread. Surprisingly Wikipedia has a really good page on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_%28firearms%29#Double-action_only
To summarize though a DAO trigger cocks and releases the hammer/striker with every pull while not having the capability of being cocked into a single action mode. Glocks and similar guns have what is know as a pre-set trigger and the trigger can't be pulled when decocked.
Also striker or hammer fired is independent of trigger type. All types of triggers can be found with striker or hammer fired pistols.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_%28firearms%29#Double-action_only
To summarize though a DAO trigger cocks and releases the hammer/striker with every pull while not having the capability of being cocked into a single action mode. Glocks and similar guns have what is know as a pre-set trigger and the trigger can't be pulled when decocked.
Also striker or hammer fired is independent of trigger type. All types of triggers can be found with striker or hammer fired pistols.
MythBuster
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"I am skeptical that a two-stage trigger performs any hammer cocking action on those rifles. But I'm not a "rifle guy," so I could be wrong."
You are wrong. Both the military trigger on an AR and most SKS rifles actually pull the hammer to the rear to some degree.
It is a safety feature to make it more difficult for the hammer to fall accidentally.
Not all SKS rifles do this because of variations in how they are made but they are ALL supposed to do this.
You are wrong. Both the military trigger on an AR and most SKS rifles actually pull the hammer to the rear to some degree.
It is a safety feature to make it more difficult for the hammer to fall accidentally.
Not all SKS rifles do this because of variations in how they are made but they are ALL supposed to do this.
MythBuster
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"Whether or not common sense came into the decision making process or not, the M&P, with it's almost 100% pre cocked striker is considered a DAO pistol. That alone tells me that the "DAO" description doesn't mean much any more.".
Someone else pointed out the real reason for this. It is all about lying about the design so some PD's and those shooters who don't want a SA will buy their guns.
More people than you would think will not carry a SA pistol. Many people simply are afraid of them.
Also more people than you think can not look at a gun such as the M&P and understand it is almost completly precocked.
S&W is not alone in this. Styer did it with their M series and when SA Inc first started importing the XD they did it. Today SA Inc no longer makes that claim and I am not sure if Steyr still does.
Someone else pointed out the real reason for this. It is all about lying about the design so some PD's and those shooters who don't want a SA will buy their guns.
More people than you would think will not carry a SA pistol. Many people simply are afraid of them.
Also more people than you think can not look at a gun such as the M&P and understand it is almost completly precocked.
S&W is not alone in this. Styer did it with their M series and when SA Inc first started importing the XD they did it. Today SA Inc no longer makes that claim and I am not sure if Steyr still does.
MythBuster
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Actually this DAO BS first started with the Steyr M series pistol. Steyr claimed it is DAO. A few years ago when they first released this pistol a lot of people were buying them and there was a huge debate on the net about them not being a DAO.
It seemed that only one or two people had enough brains to examine the pistol for themselves so the vast majority of people stuck to the thought they were DAO.
One poster said there was a simple test to find out for sure. He said take a thin object and place it between the slide and frame up against the rear of the striker and slowly pull the trigger. If in fact the gun had any DOA qualities you should be able to see and feel any additional rearward movement of the striker.
Everyone still refused to do such a test and still insisted their gun was DAO.
I did not have access to a Steyr at the time so I did not know who to believe. About a year later my cousin bought one. One of the first things I did was do this simple test. The trigger pull did not move the striker any distance to the rear that could be seen or felt so the gun is clearly a SA.
It seemed that only one or two people had enough brains to examine the pistol for themselves so the vast majority of people stuck to the thought they were DAO.
One poster said there was a simple test to find out for sure. He said take a thin object and place it between the slide and frame up against the rear of the striker and slowly pull the trigger. If in fact the gun had any DOA qualities you should be able to see and feel any additional rearward movement of the striker.
Everyone still refused to do such a test and still insisted their gun was DAO.
I did not have access to a Steyr at the time so I did not know who to believe. About a year later my cousin bought one. One of the first things I did was do this simple test. The trigger pull did not move the striker any distance to the rear that could be seen or felt so the gun is clearly a SA.
JohnBT
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"Also more people than you think can not look at a gun such as the M&P and understand it is almost completly precocked."
What's the point? Is it SA? No. Is it DA/SA? No? What's left?
I just don't understand your anger about something so simple.
"Also more people than you think can not look at a gun such as the M&P and understand it is almost completly precocked."
Could you the first time you saw one on the shelf or in an ad? I don't even own one, but I can read the manual on line.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/M&P_Pistol_Manual_10-30-10.pdf
"While holding the grip firmly, pull the trigger fully to the rear. As the trigger is
drawn fully to the rear, the striker assembly is released, striking
the cartridge primer."
What's the point? Is it SA? No. Is it DA/SA? No? What's left?
I just don't understand your anger about something so simple.
"Also more people than you think can not look at a gun such as the M&P and understand it is almost completly precocked."
Could you the first time you saw one on the shelf or in an ad? I don't even own one, but I can read the manual on line.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/M&P_Pistol_Manual_10-30-10.pdf
"While holding the grip firmly, pull the trigger fully to the rear. As the trigger is
drawn fully to the rear, the striker assembly is released, striking
the cartridge primer."
MythBuster
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"I just don't understand your anger about something so simple."
Anger? I pointed out that two gun manufacturers lied about their product. I really don't care because I am not going to buy one.
I said IF I had bought one of these guns because I wanted a DAO and later discovered they were SA I would have been angry.
Anger? I pointed out that two gun manufacturers lied about their product. I really don't care because I am not going to buy one.
I said IF I had bought one of these guns because I wanted a DAO and later discovered they were SA I would have been angry.
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