Your thoughts on handgun lasers?

[mavracer]

Id suggest both mavracer and gun slinger go get tac lights instead...

1911 in nightstand wears both trijicons and crimson trace and is right next to surefire G3.
M&P 340 in pocket has XS big dot front and CT405 crimson trace and surefire E2 NRA defender in hammer pocket of cargos.

 

[Loomis]

lasers are utterly useless in bright daylight. And I really doubt you will have time to use them in a real life or death situation. You need to be able to hit what you are pointing at without thinking. What will a laser accomplish? PUt a dot where you are pointing? For what purpose? IF you need to verify your point of aim to save your life, you are probably too late.

That said, I have one on my beretta 92. It works good as a training device to practice holding steady while dry firing. If the dot moves when you pull the trigger, you screwed up.

 

[JoeSlomo]

A laser sight is a huge advantage.

Meh...

I found that when it's bright enough to use my sights, it takes me just as long to find the darn laser as it would to just use the sight / optic, sometimes longer. So a laser offered me no advantage.

During limited visibility, it has been my experience that a good gun light is hard to beat, and when blasting a target with a gozillion lumens of intense white light, it's, again, just as easy to use your sights / optic. So, once again, no big advantage using a laser.

But that's for ME, not YOU!!

I met a gentleman at the range who had one on his 1911 and did quite well with it knockin' down steel and punching holes in paper. He bought it because it was easier for him to see than his sights due to vision problems. Makes sense.

Visible lasers are GREAT for dry fire training! They provide INSTANT visual feedback about fundamental errors you are making. I use a borelight laser for this purpose.

There are pro's and cons to visual lasers, and while they may not offer a significant advantage to some of us, there ARE those that they do help.


Now, IR LASERS using NODS otoh....

 

[innerpiece]

mav, right on, sound like youve got about all ya need.. nice combo might I add!

Gunslinger.. Im a factory worker too bud.. but Ive been trained by a Navy SEAL, and a MEU with pistols, rifles and carbines...
but since yer a LEO, Im shure you can recognize that all factory wokers dont have a clue

regaurdless, thanks for protecting and serving, someone has to do it.

ip.

 

[mavracer]

I must confess that you have me at a disadvantage. I was unaware that factory workers like you (your "Occupation" as listed in your public profile) routinely performed such duties in that line of work and possessed such expertise in the field. I bow to your greater knowledge.

Since we are talking SD you are correct your LE training rith reguards to house clearing are wrong.
as a leo you have the luxury of back up.
the Experts in the SD fields don't as a general rule even advise clearing a house if you suspect an intruder.
but of course I just a dumb civilian.

 

[Hawk]

lasers are utterly useless in bright daylight.

Checked out the green ones lately?

 

[Marcus L.]

I have almost 8 years of law enforcement experience at the Federal level, and prior to that I served in the USMC for 4 years. I agree with many of Gun Slinger's points. Using a weapon mounted laser or flashlight has plenty of detriments along with the benefits. The priority problem is that it does indeed give away your position. I can list 5 LEO shootings in the last 10 years off the top of my head in which the officer killed was using a weapon mounted laser or light. Three were during building searches, one was after a pursuit, and the other was during a raid. In 4 of the cases the pistol or the light/laser were hit by projectiles fired from the gunman who focused his fire on the the mounted laser/light. The Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Georgia is now encouraging new recruits to use the FBI method(flashlight held away from the body) when ever possible to help avoid this problem and stray away from weapon mounted lights. In the case of long guns with mounted lights, they must train in flashing the target and not maintain a steady stream during qualifications.

Then of course the unholstering, and reholstering of mounted accessories often gets hung up during the process. When I range master, those that wish to use tac lights must qualify with them if they choose to mount them on their pistols and I see a LOT of fumbling.

 

[Gun Slinger]

lasers dont "illuminate"

innerpiece-

Not flaming you here, but you sound like someone who has never cleared a residence before, "formal/advanced training" aside.

In darkened conditions there is considerable "side glow" (illumination) from even the highest quality laser units. Our departmental tactical entry/warrant service weapons bear 300mw (532nm) units that will light up an entire 15x20 room (regardless of lighting level) bright enough that any occupants are easily seen regardless of where they are standing in the room so long as they are not hiding behind a solid object.

Besides, I already have a tactical light but, as you might suspect it is not mounted on my weapon.

 

[mavracer]

mav, right on, sound like youve got about all ya need.. nice combo might I add!

forgot to add a 70# boxer and a 95# rott/mix that do my house clearing.
oh and Wife the formerly active duty Marine has a P226 laser/surefire in her NS.
and right now my BIL is staying with us just back from second tour in the sand waiting on a recruter slot.I don't let him have a gun that would make it too easy on the BG

 

[Gun Slinger]

Gunslinger.. Im a factory worker too bud.. but Ive been trained by a Navy SEAL, and a MEU with pistols, rifles and carbines...
but since yer a LEO, Im shure you can recognize that all factory wokers dont have a clue

regaurdless, thanks for protecting and serving, someone has to do it.

innerpiece-

My commentary above wasn't meant to offend. I just believe in "keepin' it real" and I suffer from the unfiltered directness that being a cop eventually instills in one long into the profession. I doubt that you are "clueless" by your displayed sense of humor.

Of course, our departmental lasers do have an entertaining use. They can "pop" a balloon at better than 15 meters in a fraction of a second. Lots of fun, but gotta watch the eyes because with that same power they can permanently and forever blind someone with less than 50 milliseconds of direct exposure. Dangerous toys to say the least.

 

[innerpiece]

well gunslinger, I guess theres no debatin with ya.
yer the pro.
I only learned from family who do things that LEO fortunatly dont have to do.. most of them any way. my experience needs no mention.. ya might not be familiar with that term.

if yer confident with what you do, keep doin it.
no harshness intended.

I have merely found a more effective route for fast and positive target acquisition for my self, thru training hosted by the best of the best.

again, Id choose a tac light over a beam.
in low light and dark, its more illuminating than any laser. it also offers blinding targets better.
I wouldnt be ignorant unuff to say lasers are innefective. you youreself use one.. but for me, I choose the advantages of a taclight for targeting and identifying in low light.

thats just me.

I havent 'Cleared a residence"...lol no offence, but that sounds LEO'ish... yer right, I dont go into peoples houses with guns.. but unfortunately Ive had OTJ training aswell.

to each our own eh?!

ip.

 

[Gun Slinger]

I have almost 8 years of law enforcement experience at the Federal level, and prior to that I served in the USMC for 4 years. I agree with many of Gun Slinger's points. Using a weapon mounted laser or flashlight has plenty of detriments along with the benefits. The priority problem is that it does indeed give away your position. I can list 5 LEO shootings in the last 10 years off the top of my head in which the officer killed was using a weapon mounted laser or light. Three were during building searches, one was after a pursuit, and the other was during a raid. In 4 of the cases the pistol or the light/laser were hit by projectiles fired from the gunman who focused his fire on the the mounted laser/light. The Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Georgia is now encouraging new recruits to use the FBI method(flashlight held away from the body) when ever possible to help avoid this problem and stray away from weapon mounted lights. In the case of long guns with mounted lights, they must train in flashing the target and not maintain a steady stream during qualifications.

Then of course the unholstering, and reholstering of mounted accessories often gets hung up during the process. When I range master, those that wish to use tac lights must qualify with them if they choose to mount them on their pistols and I see a LOT of fumbling.

Marcus-

Nice to see another LEO (even if you are a Fed and a Marine ) here with similar experience. Been a long time since FLETC for me ('92). Left USDOJ to become a "street cop". Different world, but lots of "fun" to be had.

Kinda thought that the FBI method was a "dead technique", but i seem to be mistaken in patting the dirt down on its grave.

 

[innerpiece]

Im thinkin this conversation could actually teach alot of things to folks who dont have experience..

so Ill try and continue without bein witty.. again, I mean no offence Gunslinger.

 

[Gun Slinger]

to each our own eh?!

ip-

Reckon so...

It is hard to offend me for the most part. Gave up on it years ago, now I just smile and laugh. That, actually, seems to piss off most peole even more than a snide retort. Guess that it is just part of my "natural charm".

Something you said though that merits further consideration....

...it also offers blinding targets better.
I wouldnt be ignorant unuff to say lasers are innefective. you youreself use one...

While I use one in very limited situations, the tactic of blinding someone with it would be a permanent injury since our 300mw units (532 nm: Green) will burn retinas forever. The resulting lawsuit that would follow would most likely have me out of a job. With the lower power units (usually less than 5mw and typically averaging 3mw) available to the general public such is not as much of a concern. When it comes to unsupported residential/industrial/commercial structure clearance commonly coducted by field LEOs, the laser is simply not a practical option given the constraints of that particular environment.

Witty is fine with me. I can deal with witty...

 

[tipoc]

Well folks have their preferences, their prejudices and sometimes some knowledge in any case they will do as they choose.

So my opinion...

I don't need a laser mounted on my handgun. At close range they don't give me any advantage. At longer ranges they give me no advantage that Trijicons don't already provide. And they reveal my position, particularly if there is more than one possible target. They become useless in smoky or foggy environments. Darkness is my friend, particularly in a gunfight.

I don't feel the need for a gun mounted light either. I prefer a hand carried light. I have a good Surefire. I like the ability to point that light somewheres independently of the gun and have the gun ready to point wherever it's needed. I also don't care to point my weapon at things I am not willing to destroy. Old school training I suppose.

For a couple of centuries shooters managed without a laser on a personal defensive weapon. I do too.

Now a laser on a gun may have some applications. If I did not shoot regularly and was unsure of my abilities it could give me a bit more confidence that I could hit what I aim at. My sister does not like guns, but she lives alone so has a laser mounted on her Model 10. Without it she can't hit air at 7 feet. With it she feels she could maybe hit something or scare someone. I have no argument with her other than that she should come with me to the range more than the once a year I can get from her. I personally have more confidence with her with a baseball bat and/or a knife.

Lasers may help some folks in training. Many have never felt the need though. Most in fact.

They have a role (along with gun mounted lights) in SWAT squads and such. A light on a shotgun may be handy.

But in general I agree with Gun Slinger though I am just a lowly factory worker. Though I have "cleared" a house and not with noxious flatulence.

 

[innerpiece]

I understand.
and while I have a damn steady hand.. Id find it a bit more difficult to blind with a small dot than a focused area beam of a light..

I can totaly understand the legalities of intentional use of a weapon fixture to blind someone.
but that would also require quite the focus to they eye.. intentional... while a light can have a similar, and more temporary, yet still devistating effect. while also being able to identify possible targets in that direct fire field. also to be mentioned is that lights are used for identifying, and clearing, whereas lasers are uses strictly for targetin.... in court anyway .....

ip.

 

[innerpiece]

PS, I dont have a surefire, I carry a Cyclopse.. and no, its not mounted, that would merely show where my weapon is.. more versatility in a handheld.. when it comes to pistols.

 

[Loomis]

Green laser? For a gun? Nope, never seen one.

 

[mavracer]

At longer ranges they give me no advantage that Trijicons don't already provide

ok 25 yards j-frames 5 IDPA targets one shot each you get trijicons I get CT.

For a couple of centuries shooters managed without a laser on a personal defensive weapon. I do too.

wow, you still using a flintlock too.

 

[Gun Slinger]

Though I have "cleared" a house and not with noxious flatulence.

Now there's a unique thought.... I can imagine legions of LEOs 24 hours prior to warrant service consuming vast amounts of beans in preparation for entry....eeeewwwwww.

Glad that you took no offense from my earlier post as it was directed primarily at just one person and not the profession itself.

 

[Gun Slinger]

Green laser? For a gun? Nope, never seen one.

Loomis-

Viridian makes a green one in the 5mw power range. Quite pricey though.

 

[innerpiece]

never seen a green laser?
theyre better for NV use too

ip

 

[mavracer]

Glad that you took no offense from my earlier post as it was directed primarily at just one person and not the profession itself.

Didn't work I wasn't offended either.

But the OP asked about lasers only lasers.
you caused the thread veer bringing up weapon mounted lights.
twice in your first post you refered to

untrained/undisciplined

Your not one of those elitist LEO who think all us factory worker civilians are automaticly

untrained/undisciplined

I sure hope not

 

[conan]

Don't know anything about them, but after trying one at the range there is an obvious accuracy gain with them.

 

[Hawk]

Green laser? For a gun? Nope, never seen one.

I bought one of the Viridian X5Ls. Took about two weeks - I gather they're selling the things like hotcakes.

Anyhow, it's visible in mid-day. If I'm reading the blurb correctly it isn't actually brighter than a red laser but it appears much brighter as it's in the middle of the visible spectrum.

http://www.viridiangreenlaser.com/

I'd do a review but I'm not very good at that sort of thing - plus I never tried a red laser apart from a store sample so I've no reasonable basis of comparison.