Your thoughts on handgun lasers?

[tipoc]

By Mavracer,

ok 25 yards j-frames 5 IDPA targets one shot each you get trijicons I get CT.

And when I beat ya would it change your opinion? I doubt it. So what's the point of the "yours is bigger than mine" challenge? Just as it wouldn't change my opinion if ,on a darkened range a fella with a laser pointed at a paper target, out shot me, so I wouldn't expect it to change your opinion if I outshot you under the conditions you suggest. Your opinion wouldn't be based on much if one fella at the range outshot you under those conditions, one day.

Heck, if I was in Jr. High I'd feel challenged and chagrined! How accurately I personally can shoot a J frame at 25 yards in the dark seems kinda besides the point don't it. Whether I'd take a shot at a human target, under stress, and at speed with a J frame at 25 yards, well that's a situational question.

Heck a fella with a pistol on his scope would outshoot me. So might a fella with one bad left eye and the other that don't work but on Wednesdays after 2 p.m.

My opinion isn't based on "does it help a fella shoot at the range". A battery powered red dot sight does that. They work well in matches. My opinion is based on what I've seen work for me, and many others over the years, in defensive firearms.

wow, you still using a flintlock too.

Nope, not regularly, but my S&Ws are based on a design that's 120 years old or so and the 1911 is pushing 100.

What does either of those points (the flintlock or my personal shooting) have to do with why I don't need a laser? But why some folks may feel like they do, particularly if they don't train much.

tipoc

 

[mavracer]

What does either of those points (the flintlock or my personal shooting) have to do with why I don't need a laser?

the first was to point out the hipocracy of your statement.
the second was to disagree that at longer ranges there is a definite advantage in accuracy with a laser.but if you cant shoot that well you probably can't tell.

But why some folks may feel like they do, particularly if they don't train much.

hey, pot your black too.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

My passion lies in training others to shoot a pistol and I would never bring in a laser to do the job. I have seen people who couldn't hit a target to save their own life and had the worst habits when shooting a pistol. I would hand them a J frame with CTC and guess what. On zero. So what does that tell you? You had better learn to shoot first.
If a guy buys a pistol and fits a ctc on it, never gets the fundementals down. Suddenly he thinks himself an expert. Those are the ones full of false confidence.
As stated before. CTCs are great for dry firing. Great for pointing out of line of sight. Great for home defence and give you one hell of a peace of mind. Would you put one on a BUG? Primary pistol. AR? I personally think CTCs are great for their intended use. Put them on a rifle, get a video camera and practice dry firing and watch the camera in slow motion. You will see trigger jerk. Practice, practice and more practice. Same with a pistol. That trigger finger pulls the pistol to the opposite side of the body lasers show it and don't lie.
With a pistol? Point shooting is where its at when it comes to close range. I strongle advocate point shooting. Its very effective and I cannot speak about it enough. No laser in the world will ever help me when the BG wants to get the drop. If you are a LEO think about that one. I don't think your mind will be registering a laser.
I teach shooting for free to those who have never been exposed to firearms and they always wonder how in the h@ll they shoot so well.

 

[tipoc]

Mavracer, maybe you misunderstood my point. A laser may be helpful to some in training. But I don't need them on a defensive handgun. Don't think most folks do. I actually don't think most folks need them in training either but if it works for some in some applications than I have no problem.

If a shooter wants to put them on a .22 rifle and shoot nocturnal critters with them I can see the use.

I do see a difficulty in a person becoming dependent on their use either in training or as a self defense piece. A person who wants to shoot well should be able to shoot without them.

There is no hypocrisy in pointing out that for generations shooters have gotten along without laser sights. Unlike scopes on a rifle they don't add much and as a trend are fading at present.

And if either you or a little kid with a rubber band could outshoot me doesn't change my opinion. See the disadvantages of looking for that laser in a gunfight outweigh the fact that on a range with a J frame a fella with one might be able to shoot a better group than a fella with just night sights.


tipoc

 

[mavracer]

Mavracer, maybe you misunderstood my point. A laser may be helpful to some in training. But I don't need them on a defensive handgun. Don't think most folks do. I actually don't think most folks need them in training either but if it works for some in some applications than I have no problem.

I understand you have closed the book. you don't want/need one they are bad and don't think anyone else does either.

the problem I have is there are 10-15 posters on this thread who have used them and dissagree.I also posted a link to a free video.have you watched it (I'm guessing not)

I do see a difficulty in a person becoming dependent on their use either in training or as a self defense piece. A person who wants to shoot well should be able to shoot without them.

I would agree and so does CT watch the video.for the record I don't have them on all my SD/HD guns or do I feal "naked" without them.I also started out thinking like you.(had a guy try to shoot IPSC with one,I failed to realize he couldn't shoot anyway)then I got a set for my J frame and wow.now I have a gun that fits in my pocket that I can quickly put 5 rounds on a pie plate at 15-20 yards.

Unlike scopes on a rifle they don't add much and as a trend are fading at present.

wow this really enlighten me as to your lack of practical knowledge about lasers.CT give a single focal plane just like a scope does.

See the disadvantages of looking for that laser in a gunfight outweigh the fact that on a range with a J frame a fella with one might be able to shoot a better group than a fella with just night sights.

First if you can't put the laser on the target you can't hit it cause the bullets go where the dot is.
and to the second part I'll quote Jordan
"speed is fine accuracy is final"

git the video it's free for god sake:banghead:

 

[Gun Slinger]

Didn't work I wasn't offended either.

But the OP asked about lasers only lasers.
you caused the thread veer bringing up weapon mounted lights.
twice in your first post you refered to untrained/undisciplined

Your not one of those elitist LEO who think all us factory worker civilians are automaticly untrained/undisciplined


I sure hope not

M-

Again, you seem to be missing the point.

All of my posts were "on topic" especially #21 as it pertains to both weapon mounted lasers and lights.

Evidently, you took some sort of offense from that post and posted an inaccurate accusation that I had no training with lasers. Such could not be farther from the truth and such inflamatory, baseless remarks suggest an incredible level of immaturity and outright belligerence.

Based upon your responses you also appear to perceive the "untrained/undisciplined" description as if applies to you personally. Sometimes the truth, even when it originates from our own self-perception, hurts. Get over it.

I am not "elitist" by any stretch of the imagination and imparted the information so that others might benefit from my professional experience and allow them the ability consider their options by availing themselves of the information that I provided. If my first post (#21) caused you some sort of offense then the problem is all yours since it had nothing to do at all with you and your behaviour is clearly indicative of one suffering from a closed mind.

 

[Gun Slinger]

Clearing a house and self defense are two entirely different things. And just to be honest the fact that you chose "Gun Slinger" as your name says a lot about you. You sound like a cowboy to me. Cowboys are frowned on by the LEO's I know.

No one said you could just stick a laser on your gun and get the job done. But I'll tell you right now that if I turn the laser on that's on my 870 I can get the job of self defense done much better than without the laser. Yes you need to be concerned about giving away your position. I said that already. But the fact is that when that light comes on and you put it on your target they shouldn't have a chance to locate you because they will be shot.

No way it isn't an advantage to be able to nail your target with deadly accuracy that comes from a laser sight. Sure you can disregard your basic upkeep of your equipment and have a battery go dead. That leaves you with the same gun you have without a laser. It's not a disadvatage. It's just the lack of an advantage.

Clearing houses is not something most people are ever going to find themselves doing. If they think their house is occupied they should retreat and call the police. The reason for that is that you can overwhelm someone with a SWAT team or whatever contingent of LEO's that show up to get the job done. Attempting to "clear a house" alone is cowboy thinking and it's suicidal.

What most people need a gun for is to protect themselves from threats. They aren't arresting people. And you have to use your head when using a laser just like you do with any weapon or sight. If you use it wrong it won't do you any good and it may hurt you. If a person stands up to an armed intruder without the ability to hit what they're shooting at that gun they're holding is a drawback and not an asset. The same goes for a laser. Like any piece of equipment you must know how to use it.

I think you're being reactionary and you're preaching to us that only you know how everything works. That's all too typical cop thinking to be honest. Don't defend yourself. Let us do it. Don't use a laser. We know better. It's all coming from the idea that you know better than anyone else and that's just not true. If I waited on a LEO at my house I'd be waiting for hours. Bad guys will have killed me and my family and left the state by that time.

IMO you're giving out bad information. Lasers can certainly be used to your advantage if you use them correctly. When I took my CCW class about 90% of the people taking the class were lucky to hit the target at 20 feet with their handguns. I was shooting smiley faces on mine. Those people can learn to use a laser to shoot accurately faster than they can learn to shoot accurately without a laser. That's the bottom line. They must learn when to turn on their laser and when to keep it off. They must learn a lot of things or they better just leave their weapon in the drawer and hope the bad guys don't hurt them. But most people on this ng do have experience with guns. They are capable of learning when to use a laser and when not to. The idea that they are always a drawback is just wrong. It's just like any tool. I can mash my finger with a hammer. But I can build a house with one if I use it right. You're essentially telling people that we should all avoid hammers because you might mash your finger. That makes no sense at all in my book. Neither does telling people they have to shoot like Billy The Kid in order to defend yourself. That stuff about needing to be able to shoot without aiming may work for some but for most people it's suicide. Maybe you're a "Gun Slinger" but most people have more sense than to shoot like Billy The Kid. And maybe that works when you're clearing houses and maybe it's more like Hollywood than the stuff you accused people of learning from movies and tv. Sure some people can do it. But most can't. Those people can benefit from a laser IMO.

Your attitude is highly suspect IMO. You're telling people that unless they have "cleared houses" that they can't defend themselves adequately. That's horse hockey my friend.

I've grown up shooting from the hip at a lot of things and I can do it very well. But I also learned that most people can't without years of training that most people don't have the time to do. But if you have studied your parameters in your house and you know where to set up to defend yourself and you know where your kill zones are then you can use a laser to get the job done. You don't turn on the laser and wait for the bad guys to come to you. You wait until they are in your kill zone and you have your gun pointed the right way and you push the button that lights up your laser and you pull the trigger when the dot is on the bad guy. And if you can't tell the difference between a laser switch and a trigger then you're a moron and you shouldn't be playing with guns.

Look I appreciate what LEO's do. I have very good friends that are LEO's. But when they start giving out bad info telling people they must be able to shoot from the hip (which is essentially what you said) then someone needs to give an opposing statement that is more grounded in reality. We can't all be "Gun Slingers" and we shouldn't try. Most of us should be the "keep your head down and don't take stupid chances" type. I've seen Audie Murphy's movie. Don't tell me that guy didn't do it right. He was a gunslinger but he told his friend to keep his head down. His friend didn't and it cost him his life. I'm speaking up for all those who are like Murphy's friend. You can be like Murphy if you like but most MOH winners get the medal after they're dead. Murphy was lucky he didn't get his head shot off or have that armoured vehicle blow up on him.

King Ghidora-

Your post above is filled with blatantly inaccurate accusations and mis-attributions regarding what I have posted prior to this and they would actually be quite hilarious if they didn't actually border on the disturbed.

That you cite (above, in bold) having watched one of Audie Murphy's movies as one of your "credentials" suggests strongly that you (as a documentary video producer) are wholly misinformed and completely unaware of what constitutes reality. Your comparison above to the movie "Lethal Weapon" ("I was shooting smiley faces on mine") is an equally pathetic and a rather tragic portrayal of what you apparently believe constitutes reality.

Clearly you suffer from far too many issues (some of them pathological) to address herein due to obvious space constraints and I have neither the time nor the desire to attempt to resolve them for you here. Other than to suggest that you avail yourself of the services of a competent mental health professional, I have nothing for you.

Get well soon, friend.

 

[Marcus L.]

Gun Slinger,

I've come to the conclusion that most shooters don't really have a clue until they get some sort of formal training with experienced instructors.....and that's just the start. As the years go by as an LEO and you use your training in a job environment you learn to explore new options because after all, your job depends on your best performance as well as your life. Law enforcement and active duty military personel experience a constant pressure to be their best as the realities of failure are observed first hand. We see the case incident reports, we go through the training scenarios, and we watch the videos of our comrades getting shot and hear their screams on audio. If we are fortunate, we never have to be part of that horror. However, it is kept fresh in our minds and we strive for being the best we can be. We try out different tools of the trade(weapon lasers for example) and use them with a high degree of open mindedness, but also a high level of scrutiny. If they take a back seat to a different piece of equipment.....it is for a very good reason. The FBI spent roughly 3 million on research and experimentation just determining whether moving from the 9mm to the 10mm was a sound idea. Weighing benefit and detriment needs to be thorough.

Law enforcement is probably the primary driving force behind the small arms market. It was the FBI who are most directly responsible for why we have the advanced and reliable defensive ammunition we use in our handguns of choice. The 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop showed the problems associated with the ammunition industry and set a standard for quality and design which is the only way to test today. Then of course you have the LAPD's 1979 request of Bushnell for a sharpshooter scope that could be operated at night which led to the reddot scopes we have today. The Glock itself is a creation of law enforcement handgun attributes such as simplicity of design, single trigger condition, and ease of operation. Attributes layed down by Officer Alex Clayborne in 1968 in his journal called "The Ideal Police Pistol". This pistol which was originally only targeting LE and military sales is now the most common pistol used by US civilians. The list goes on and on.

It is the experiences of law enforcement and those individual officers and their feedback in the field that most directly effects the civilian gun market. Why?...because unlike civilians, LEOs use their equipment much more and compile a factual review via sworn case incident reports. The civilian market does influence certain areas of the small arms market that LE doesn't though. Such areas would be small CCW pistols and hunting rigs.

 

[mavracer]

Gun Slinger,
lets revisit your original post.

you stated

Lights/Lasers hanging on guns are problematic in that:

1. They depend on batteries. Batteries will make a fool of you and "die" at the worst time possible. (I hate batteries.)

you assume poor preperation. If you watch the CT video they reccomend replacing batterys yearly

2. They "mark" your position for a hostile/intruder both by the light that is directly emitted from the device and the "back-glow" that is easily seen by anyone who has allowed their scotopic vision to fully develop. Unanticipated self-illumination is bad tactics and will result in your death given the presence of an intruder who is willing to kill you simply for your possessions.

you assume no training.proper use of laser is to not turn it on till you are getting a sight picture as per the Video and apparently your training.

3. Operating lights/lasers requires the employment of fine motor skills to operate them and diverts/detracts from the already complicated task of operating the weapon and its controls while under stressful, frightening situations which is why we have the gun out in the first place.

you assume again improper training as CT lasers use gross motor skills all you have to do is grasp the gun tighter.

4. The untrained/undisciplined typically resort to the sloppy and dangerous habit of using the light/laser to illuminate subjects/objects that pose no tactical/lethal threat or should not have a weapon pointed at them in the first place. This is usually not a problem until someone confuses an "off" switch with the trigger. (It's always fun until someone loses an eye.)

5. The untrained/undisciplined commonly begin to rely on the laser in most, if not all, lighting scenarios instead of going to their open/iron sights first. The laser should be an alternative only when lighting conditions warrant its use. To fall into this behaviour is nothing more than pure laziness.

these two are self explanatory that you assume thwe wrong tactics and techniques

6. Weapon mounted lights make finding proper fitting holsters a royal pain in the behind. Modifications are usually in order unless one is fortunate enough to find a holster that is designed for the weapon mounted light.

funny my guns fitted with CT grips fit in every holster made for those guns
surely If you reread your post you will see why I was mistaken that you were untrained when you clearly assume all the wrong techniques.
surely then you would agree that weapon mounted lasers when properly used IE for sight picture after target aquired could be a valuable tool in a trained persons arsenal.
that or my second thought was correct and you are thinking like an elitist LEO and us civilian are just too stoopid to use tools properly.

 

[Gun Slinger]

Marcus,

Outstanding post!

I agree with your assertion that many recreational shooters are don't have clue until they are the recipient of competent professional training. Even then, the "big picture" remains substantially incomplete for the vast majority of them.

That we have the benefit of employing that training "in the real world" and developing a large experience set because of our employment field is a blessing to me and I consider it an obligation to share it with those fellow shooters regardless of their vocation because I hope that it will help out those who are interested in learning how to better protect "themselves and theirs" should the time ever come.

While I am unfamiliar with the work of Officer Clayborne, I will research it since I am always open to learning more and enriching myself in that way. That the military and police professions generate such similar requests for weaponry is no surprise to me, but I have never heard it expressed in quite the way that you did above and using the Glock as a way of illustrating it was both insightful and helpful to me.

Again, great post!

 

[Gun Slinger]

Gun Slinger, lets revisit your original post.

Let's not, since you've obviously become emotional and irrational and continue to demonstrate it by engaging in non sequitir and derogatory accusations.

...or my second thought was correct and you are thinking like an elitist LEO and us civilian are just too stoopid to use tools properly...

I would agree and so does CT watch the video.for the record I don't have them on all my SD/HD guns or do I feal "naked" without them.I also started out thinking like you.(had a guy try to shoot IPSC with one,I failed to realize he couldn't shoot anyway)then I got a set for my J frame and wow.now I have a gun that fits in my pocket that I can quickly put 5 rounds on a pie plate at 15-20 yards.

When you misspell even simple words like "stupid" and "feel" throughout your many posts, what am I to conclude then? Many adjectives leap to mind: uneducated, untrained, lazy, careless, stupid, inattentive... I could go on and on.

If the shoe fits....

I am done with you and your overwhelming ignorance and the "last word" is all yours. Just don't misspell it.

 

[welldoya]

I thought that lasers were pretty useless until I put CTs on my 642. I like 'em and can shoot better with them. That sums it up for me. I don't plan on clearing any houses but if a BG comes into MY bedroom, he's toast.

 

[mavracer]

Let's not, since you've obviously become emotional and irrational and continue to demonstrate it by engaging in non sequitir and derogatory accusations.

When you misspell even simple words like "stupid" and "feel" throughout your many posts, what am I to conclude then? Many adjectives leap to mind: uneducated, untrained, lazy, careless, stupid, inattentive... I could go on and on.

I am done with you and your overwhelming ignorance and the "last word" is all yours. Just don't misspell it.

apparently you do think your above the rules quoted from THR forum rules at the top of the page.

There are only a few house rules:

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[rondog]

Blah blah blah. I like mine and ain't giving it up, so there!

 

[Art Eatman]

I'm been happily watching the Tide & the Gators, but made the mistake of checking my email. And sure enough, a complaint about all the (bleeping bleep) above.

No mas. Back to the game. Folks can wait until later for moderator messages.

Art