Your view on Hydra-Shok ammo?

[Loosedhorse]

Just because Hydra-Shok ammo is old doesn't mean it's good.

Doesn't mean they're bad, either. And yes, I get the HST rationale.

W-W Silvertips have been around since 1979, does that make them the best choice?

I thought the question was whether they're "bad", not whether they are the best choice. I think there are better choices, sure, but I wouldn't kick Silvertips out of bed.

This tester got 13.8" of penetration from the 115gr, fired out of a Kel-Tec P-11. If folks don't like 115, they could try 147.

but modern bullet designs will increase the odds in your favor.

And how do we know this, exactly? I know that they might, perhaps that they could--how do I get to knowing that they will?

 

[mdauben]

I've heard all the back and forth on the issue of H-S. Back in the day when they were considered one of the best SD loads, I carried them in both my 9mm and .45ACP. Now, I generally carry either Gold Dots or HST in my guns, because they both have good reps, and are available in economical 50-round "LE" packaging. On the other hand, if my guns were still loaded with H-S, I would not feel any less well armed.

Despite the fun of nit-picking the results of denim tests, wet pack expansion and gel penetration on-line, I honestly believe that the terminal performance differences between most premium JHP ammo is inconsequential compared to the myriad of other variables in a SD shooting. YMMV.

 

[Storm]

Been using H-S about as long as I can remember. Never had a concern. Anyone wearing four layers of denim around here is going to have other issues such as dehydration. Recently I have also been using Pow'RBall, which I'm sure has its detractors as well.

Pick your poison.

 

[Warp]

Anyone wearing four layers of denim around here is going to have other issues such as dehydration

During the winter when it gets cool, and all of the true locals think it's turned into the arctic, people wear tons of layers of clothing. This winter was mild, but when it has been down to 30*, 20*, 15*...people wore TONS of clothing.

 

[Storm]

Honestly, other than maybe someone in their leathers, I have rarely if ever seen anyone wearing thick enough clothes to be a concern even with our coldest winters, except maybe my wife

 

[Warp]

Honestly, other than maybe someone in their leathers, I have rarely if ever seen anyone wearing thick enough clothes to be a concern even with our coldest winters, except maybe my wife

In that case I suggest you dig deeper into handgun wounding/ballistics with a specific eye for what it takes to clog a JHP to the point that it does not expand, or only minimally expands. Plenty of people wear enough clothing in the cooler months that a sub-par hollow point could easily clog up and fail to expand.

I get the feeling, based on the above paragraph, you are now looking/thinking about this from a "so much clothing you don't adequately penetrate" angle, which is not the problem. Well, it isn't the problem with a proper defensive caliber. It might be a problem if you are carrying a .32 or a even a .380

 

[Storm]

It's never enough unless it is someone's favorite flavor. No worries, I have chosen what I am satisfied with.

Btw, I agree that caliber choice is crucial. With 357 SIG, 40, and even 9mm I have little concern over bundled felons.

For the record, my position is that clothing isn't as big of a deal as some would make it. Folks here for the very most part wear less of it for most of the year making it even less of an issue.

 

[Ash]

Are we really going to say that, while old, the Hydra Shok is subpar?

 

[Warp]

Ash: Subpar? That might be a bit harsh of a term. Perhaps a term that indicates hydra shok to be acceptable, yet not quite in the top echelon. It just doesn't seem to open as consistently, or hold together as consistently, as some of the other choices available today.

Also, how many LEA do you know of that use Hydra Shok right now? Tons of Gold Dot and Ranger out there. HST is coming along as well. I know of some with Golden Saber. Haven't heard of one yet, myself, that issues Hydra Shok. (I'm sure they are out there, just not as common)

 

[Loosedhorse]

Haven't heard of one yet, myself, that issues Hydra Shok.

Asking how many LE dept.s issue something might be a good indication, might not. LE dept.s don't look just at "predicted" effectiveness (if that's what gel tests are about), but also pricing and liability--and there's less liability if they select something that a lot of LE Dept.s are selecting.

Me? I think IMHO the (many) loadings of the light-for-caliber (115 9; 185 .45; etc.) Barnes all-copper Tac-HP might be the best SD ammo out there in several calibers. But it's pricey; ammo companies wouldn't be that thrilled to push a load that requires a lot of the profit to flow to the bullet manufacturer instead of to them alone; and no LE Dept. would want to be the first to issue it. So, even though no one issues it, doesn't mean therefore it can't be the best.

 

[Warp]

If a LEA issued it we could look at their results. Some of the others that have been mentioned have proven themselves time and time again in OISs. If Hyda Shok cannot match that street cred, why not?

 

[Loosedhorse]

If Hyda Shok cannot match that street cred, why not?

Why do you say lack of "street cred" has led to the HS falling out of favor? My guess is that it was more a lack of "4-layer denim gel cred."

I carry HSs in .45. I personally think that .45 (like .40 and 10) is a very forgiving caliber: many loads will perform well, so big deal which HP you choose. I think, in contrast, which load one picks in 9 or .38 (.38--what's that? ) might matter a lot.

 

[Gtimothy]

I like H-S in my 1911. Accurate and feeds reliably. As for the BG with the dbl barrel scattergun, He's ready to let loose so I'm not standing still taking good aim. I'm one handing it looking for cover! When he stops to reload, and only THEN, I'll take a proper stance and finish it.

 

[JTQ]

Warp wrote,
If a LEA issued it we could look at their results. Some of the others that have been mentioned have proven themselves time and time again in OISs. If Hyda Shok cannot match that street cred, why not?

The Hydra-Shok has been around for a long time, and at one time was a very popular issue round. It has a bunch of "street cred". Actually, it probably has more "street cred" than most other rounds.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

Loosedhorse wrote
My guess is that it was more a lack of "4-layer denim gel cred."

You are probably right. Since Federal makes Hydra-Shok and HST, it is possible Federal needed to sell a "new and improved" round to increase market share. Of course I do believe HST is probably a better round, but it does not make Hydra-Shok inadequate.

Note: I'm not really a fan of the Marshall and Sanow "scientific method" of data gathering, as there are just too many variables involved to make the data truly accurate, but it is a data point none the less.

 

[PabloJ]

Dear THR,
I wanted to ask your views on application of Hydra-Shok ammo in self defense. Is Hydra-Shok really a potent choice or does it have short comings that I should be aware of?

Thanks

Perfectly acceptable SD ammo.

 

[CountryUgly]

It's an oldie but a goodie plain and simple.

 

[Pyro]

Well..it's a bullet...and bullets work.
Just remember...SHOT PLACEMENT.
I like to practice with what I carry.

 

[ctaylor]

Reading this is much like reading internet discussions regarding the most effective broad head for bowhunting deer. Lots and lots of opinions but the capability to actually prove anything just doesn't exist because of the number of variables. One thing is certain: the R&D and Marketing Depts. of companies that manufacture and sell bullets and broadheads are out there doing something every day...whether the product is improving or not.

I have never (thank goodness) shot a human being. I have shot a lot of deer with centerfire rifles in several different flavors. It is impossible to predict the result of even a well-placed hit. Very, very few actually "drop in their tracks", even when shot through both lungs...never mind a hit in the paunch. Beyond that, it's a crap shoot. Some go 40 yards and some go a half-mile. My reading suggests that human reaction to gunshots varies widely as well.

Nothing wrong with shooting the latest FBI favorite, but it seems to me the design of your bullet (assuming it doesn't fragment) might be way, way down the list of important factors in surviving an exchange of pistol fire. Stuff like recognizing the threat, gaining separation (who wants to exchange fire at arms length?), reaction time (training), accessibility of your weapon, ambient lighting and even the clothes that you're wearing (I'm going to start wearing lots of denim!) come way before bullet section. IMHO.

I am pretty sure about this: deer hit anywhere with a 300 Win Mag react more than one shot with a 243. They flinch, buck, stumble, get knocked off their feet, whatever...but whatever they do is more than they do when shot with a "light" caliber. I think that's what I'm looking for, since I'm not out to kill anybody. I just want them to react as much as possible in the hope that they will stop attacking.

So give me a bullet that is going to deliver some serious energy, in hopes that it imparts enough reaction to make the BG cease fire and retreat. That comes from mass X velocity, not bullet design (assuming the bullet doesn't disintegrate). In my opinion.

 

[Warp]

So give me a bullet that is going to deliver some serious energy, in hopes that it imparts enough reaction to make the BG cease fire and retreat. That comes from mass X velocity, not bullet design (assuming the bullet doesn't disintegrate). In my opinion.

Bullet design matters, too. That energy doesn't do any good if it passes right through the target and keeps going, This is why the .357 mag 125gr SJHP has such a reputation...it violently expands and dumps all of it's energy in the target (while penetrating adequately). A 125gr FMJ that passes right through wouldn't have as great of an effect. And if thick/heavy clothing is involved, and it clogs the JHP resulting in energy being wasted by passing right through..now bullet design matters because bullet design is what allows that JHP to open up and release that energy into the target (while still penetrating adequately)

 

[Ash]

The hole that a 357 generates, regardless of expansion, will do what it needs. Vitals or bones hit make the damage worse. And in any case, HS have been around and are established veterans. There are better, sure, but they remain good.

 

[Warp]

Ash: People carry, and LEAs issued, SJHP or JHP for .357 mags instead of FMJ for a reason. They more reliably stop people.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I keep my .40 in the truck and my .45 on the nightstand stoked with Hyda-Shoks. Even if they don't expand it's still a decent hole. Frankly if I have time I'm turning and burning with a 12ga pump anyhow.

That said the .380 that's with me more than anything else is full of FMJs.

 

[Hypnogator]

Usetawas, Hydra-Shoks were the best S/D & service ammo made. They still are excellent, but, as has been pointed out, not against opponents wearing heavy clothing. I carried them for years in 230-gr .45ACP, still have a couple of boxes kicking around, but now they're range ammo, as far as I'm concerned.

My Taurus PT-145 Millennium Pro is loaded with Federal 230-gr Tactical Bonded (which they advertise as giving superior performance from short barrels). My second choice would be Federal HSTs, followed by Taurus or Cor-Bon 185-gr loads using Barnes Hex bullets.

FWIW, I still like the 230-gr stuff out of the Taurus because it's heavy enough to absorb the recoil, but I carry Cor-Bon DPX 140-grs in my Walther PPS and DPX 60-grs in my Ruger LCP. Penetration and expansion tests on both these loads have shown outstanding results even through heavy clothing (the archetypal 4 layers of denim).

 

[Ash]

Wasp, people carried, and still carry, HS for a reason.

 

[Warp]

...it was one of the better choices available.

That is no longer the case.