You're carrying and the store detector goes off

[GaryL]

Fortunately, MN law allows open carry, so someone seeing a firearm is perfectly legal; maybe not a good idea, but legal nonetheless.

Some of you guys are awfully sensitive about someone asking to look in a bag. I agree with having an issue with a personal search, but as long as I'm on their property, I don't see the issue of having them look in a bag so long as they don't waste more than a minute of my time doing so. Now if people would be willing to work for stuff, the rest of us would be paying less to support all the loss prevention stores have to implement.

 

[kurtmax]

Most of the time merchants can only legally detain a person if they have probable cause that a person is shoplifting. This is the same probable cause police need. Some, very rare areas, allow detention for reasonable suspicion. But not generally. In addition, even if the merchant has probable cause, they are still subject to liability during detention and stuff as a citizens arrest. They don't have the same legal immunity like a police officer.

Essentially it is a Bad Idea (TM) for a merchant to detain someone. Even if they are doing it legally it's a good way to get shot, or worse.

'Merchandise detector thingys' are not considered probable cause in most places.

My advice is to keep walking. The worst that has ever happened to me is the wal-mart lady yells at me....

Also, I've never heard of store security tackling somebody. That's insane. If a rent-a-cop at a store tried that to me I can imagine serious injury occuring.

 

[jackstinson]

If the alarm goes off for some reason and they ask to see my receipt and merchandise, fine...I did nothing wrong. If they don't ask, I keep walking....I did nothing wrong. No biggie.
Jack

 

[strat81]

Jeez guys, take the 5 minutes and research your state statutes before giving out bad info.

Store personnel CAN stop and detain you in some states if they meet certain tests.

I've posted Nebraska already, here is Virginia's statute:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+8.01-226.9

§ 8.01-226.9. Exemption from civil liability in connection with arrest or detention of person suspected of shoplifting.

A merchant, agent or employee of the merchant, who causes the arrest or detention of any person pursuant to the provisions of §§ 18.2-95, 18.2-96 or § 18.2-103, shall not be held civilly liable for unlawful detention, if such detention does not exceed one hour, slander, malicious prosecution, false imprisonment, false arrest, or assault and battery of the person so arrested or detained, whether such arrest or detention takes place on the premises of the merchant, or after close pursuit from such premises by such merchant, his agent or employee, provided that, in causing the arrest or detention of such person, the merchant, agent or employee of the merchant, had at the time of such arrest or detention probable cause to believe that the person had shoplifted or committed willful concealment of goods or merchandise. The activation of an electronic article surveillance device as a result of a person exiting the premises or an area within the premises of a merchant where an electronic article surveillance device is located shall constitute probable cause for the detention of such person by such merchant, his agent or employee, provided such person is detained only in a reasonable manner and only for such time as is necessary for an inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the activation of the device, and provided that clear and visible notice is posted at each exit and location within the premises where such a device is located indicating the presence of an antishoplifting or inventory control device. For purposes of this section, "electronic article surveillance device" means an electronic device designed and operated for the purpose of detecting the removal from the premises, or a protected area within such premises, of specially marked or tagged merchandise.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-127; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1976, c. 515; 1980, c. 149; 1985, c. 275, § 18.2-105; 2004, c. 462.)

I am not about to let some clerk frisk me or otherwise search my person. But, some of the bravado in this thread is ridiculous.

 

[redneckrepairs]

here really is no need to be hostile towards the merchant.

I am in no way hostile towards the merchant , after all i just handed them the profit margin on a purchase . By the same token the merchant and their staff has no need to be hostile twards me by attempting to detain me in any fashion If they belive i stole anything , then get LE involved . if i leave there are plates on my car that come directly back to me ... IMHO if your going to accuse me of stealing you had best have all you need to prosecute , not an alarm by its self .

 

[redneckrepairs]

Jeez guys, take the 5 minutes and research your state statutes before giving out bad info.

Store personnel CAN stop and detain you in some states if they meet certain tests.

I have not seen anyone say different , actually if you would read we had a discussion on pc and rs some posts up as well as the rights of stores and their agents . so my advise is to read the thread before you flame .

 

[Seminole]

Are you going to say that while you have the right to carry a weapon to protect your life/property, but you will deny a shop owner that same personal responsibility to protect their property through reasonable methods?

There is some faulty reasoning here. The shop owner may engage in any reasonable methods he or she desires. Reasonable methods do not, however, include demanding to inspect my property or person, much less detaining me forcefully without proof that I have stolen something. As I am not a thief, the shop owner does not have that proof.

Additionally, the parallel is based on false premises. My right to carry a weapon imposes no obligation or responsibility on the shop owner. The fact that either his equipment is malfunctioning or his clerk has made a mistake is his problem, not mine. Neither circumstance imposes any responsibility or obligation on me.

 

[stevemis]

What's the big deal? If the beeper goes off, it's because of something in the bag. Let them look, they'll find it, and do whatever they have to do to make it stop.

What's the big deal you ask? When the register jockey at WalMart fails to deactivate the tag, you get stopped at the door and they rifle through your effects in front of everyone like you're some common criminal. Once they find the offending object, they log the receipt number and cashier number in their logbook. This process typically takes 5 minutes.

I'm sorry WalMart can't seem to get their cashiers to follow procedure. If this were anything other than an excuse to search you, WalMart would install those sensors in the bagging area, and cashiers would be alerted when they don't deactivate a tag. This hypothetical system could log the transaction number and the cashier's ID, eliminating the logbook and needless searches at the door.

Last I checked, I wasn't compensated for my time helping WalMart weed out their bad cashiers. When the beeper beeps, I keep walking. If someone decides to tackle me, they better have a damn good reason.

If WalMart starts handing out gift cards, I might reconsider.

 

[brighamr]

I stop and let them look through the bags\receipt. The way i see it, if I owned a gun shop and someone left with an alarm going off I most certainly would want to make sure they weren't leaving with an unpaid for gun... wouldn't you?

Besides, if you make a big deal out of it the Mall Ninja will pull his G35 and Mac10 and go jujitsu on your ass

 

[Mannlicher]

if they are wanting to search me, they need a sworn officer and a warrant.

 

[redneckrepairs]

Ok i am going to lay my attitude our real simple and then quit the thread . I have no duty to even pause for a store employee nor will i. I do have every duty to pause for LE and i will as long as it takes . So if your little alarm goes of f you had best take down my plate no and have me stopped . If you as a LP officer put hands on me you will get an ass kikin . I trained arrest control for some years and i will make you feel unloved . I dont steal , and i will not be treated as i do . If i walk out of your store and you suspect i stole well call the cops , hell if you come out to the car and ASKt me to remain untill the cops arrive i am even willing there . Dont you sir lay hands on me . or if you do you best be really lawyered up and current , you might well kick my butt one day ... lol

 

[Old Dog]

How thoroughly everyone read the original post. Interesting how everyone rants about the stores having the right (or not) to detain and/or search one, when the OP's post brushed over that as basically being an "inconvenience" while the apparent main thrust of the post was having the sensor alert, and then the possible exposure of one's concealed firearm causing alarm to bystanders ...

because most people out there automatically think that any non-LEO with a handgun in public is automatically a criminal. It's probably best that not everyone gets alarmed

In rebuttal to the OP's thesis, I submit that this is generally not true at all, at least in my area. CCW is a widely-accepted, routine situation in this, the original shall-issue state.

 

[BobbyQuickdraw]

I understand where most people are coming from, but I find the whole "my lawyer" and "legal fight" and "lawsuit" stuff bothersome.

If they really do something to you that is heinous, ok, but if they're asking you to check your bag or something, or this and that, I mean, come on. Frivolous lawsuits make me angrier than all getup. When the beeper goes off, I turn and look behind me, if no one is concerned, I walk out. If an employee is looking at me, I hold up my bag and give a questioning look to see if they want to look in. 99% of the time they don't and I walk out.

I've never had, nor ever seen, someone get searched. The only times I've heard of it have been young teenagers having to take off their sweat shirts, and half the time or more they're guilty. Almost all surveillance is done through CCTV and if you're stealing stuff, they have a good chance of seeing it. If you're walking around with a huge jacket when its 70 degrees outside, you will be watched.

But for the most part these people don't care. Just walk out. If you're the 1 in 10,000th person they want to search, just say you don't consent, you haven't done anything wrong, offer your bag and receipt, then tell them you're leaving and leave. If they object, tell them you'll call the cops if they touch you.

But lawsuits should not be tossed around like they're easy or entirely appropriate in most of these situations. I would think us gun owners had a natural bias against lawsuits.

 

[03Shadowbob]

All this reminds me of a funny and very memorable moment in my life. I grew up in an all-white city (town at that time). The first black family to move into town was a very proper, well to do Jamaican family and moved right down the steet. Their son and I became best of friends at a very early age, maybe 6 or 7. Probably around 9 or 10 yoa, we rode our bikes to the old Eckerds Drugstore to buy some big league chew. Well of course we were going to check out the toys at this same time.
As we were leaving, the store manager stopped us and accused my friend of stealing a toy and putting it in his pocket. He detained us and made us call our parents. Well, Doug's dad came down to the store to pick us up and beat our butts. Before pulvarizing us, he asked Doug if he stole anything to which we emphatically said no. Well, Doug had nothing in his pockets except a dollar bill and some change.
Putting it (racism) all together in his mind, Doug's dad proceeded to rip the manager a new body hole and the guy was lucky he didn't get beat severely. If you have never seen a 6'5" 300lb Jamaican father angry, you have got to. I was scared for the guy.
Long story short, the store manager was fired and their store policies were re-written to include something along the lines of profiling. Doug's dad was a government rep from Jamaica and was also later in life a diplomat in Greneda. He had some pull and was not the who or what that store employee thought he was.

 

[springmom]

Thanks, Bobby, for injecting some sanity in this thread. All the threatened butt-whuppin' on this, you'd think it was the WWE Forum....

Getting to the OP's point, no loss prevention specialist has the right to inspect my person. But then, not one of them has ever even suggested such a thing. Like others here, I stop, look around for a clerk, point to my bag questioningly, and almost always get waved through. The only exception is about to occur...the week before Christmas. At that point they do tend to get a bit more careful, and I can't blame them.

And if a LP specialist sees the bulge under your shirt, then you have failed to conceal your handgun. Best do a better job at it unless you really DO want a conversation about what's in your belt with an LEO, at least here in Texas. Concealed means concealed, not "visible to loss prevention".

Springmom

 

[security6]

To the OP:

I'm not sure what state you're in, but the state law matters. Here in Wisconsin the relevant statute specifically states that the detained person shall not be searched against his will until a peace officer arrives. (Wisconsin Statute 943.50(3)). If you are in Wisconsin, all you need to do is tell the merchant that you won't be showing him what is in your pockets until a cop arrives.

Lots of advice (some good and some not) on this thread on what to do to avoid being asked to be searched. I've had the alarms go off on me a few times, but have never been asked to show what is in my pockets or on my person. I think it would be pretty rare to have the employee even ask to search you if you are cordial with them.

 

[Liko81]

I used to work in wal-mart. If i am not mistaken, not only do they not have the right to search you, but when that beeper goes off for merchandise that wasn't deactivated, you DO NOT have to stop. If you notice, the automated alarm is something like "Please step back and an associate will help you. Thank you." It is a request, not an order. I dont even stop anymore because i dont have to. I know that i am not a thief, i dont have to prove it.

Oh yeah, and i dont know if it has changed or varies from state to state, but even if a wal-mart employee suspects that you might be a thief, they have to WITNESS you place something into your pockets, and NOT take their eyes off of you the whole way through the store until you exit the building, and even then i dont think they are technically (legally) allowed to grab you or restrain you.

Bottom line, its their fault for not deactivating their inventory control sticker things. Dont stop for them anymore.

That's Wal-Mart's policy. They have that policy because a woman who was accused of shoplifting a phone, even though she had the receipt, was detained by Wal-Mart security, handcuffed in front of her kids who were then given to CPS while she made bail, and Wal-Mart leaned on the DA to press charges, so she ended up going on trial for this. Of course she was found not guilty, then she sued Wal-Mart for malicious prosecution and won something like $3.4 million in punitive damages. No offense as you worked for Wal-Mart, but they, like many other big-box retail stores, do not hire the best and brightest to staff its stores, and Wally World is not about to let another employee lose them millions more.

A business is well within its rights to detain you for reasonable suspicion of theft. If they were not, Sam's Club could not go through your shopping cart and match items to the receipt (hell, that's not even reasonable suspicion; that's a DUI checkpoint). They state that they're there to ensure you have all the items you paid for including all boxes of multiple-unit items, but they're LP plain and simple.

If you are requested to stop and show your purchases, do NOT keep walking. Failure to comply is definitely reasonable suspicion of theft, and loss prevention people have every right, as agents of their employer and as U.S. citizens, to detain you (citizen's arrest) and hold you until the police get there. They are NOT however allowed to physically search your person unless you consent to do so. That is unreasonable search and seizure. Nor are they allowed to use excessive force to detain you; they cannot hold you at gunpoint or beat you, and they can only handcuff you if the person doing so is trained in takedown and arrest procedures (there are classes any civilian can take).

If they want to search your bags or have you empty your pockets, you are well within your rights to refuse and they are well within their rights to restrain you while the police are called. Most guys I've dealt with have either just waved me on or asked me to stick my bags through the detector, and if that sets it off I keep walking. No invasion of privacy, and a second's inconvenience. The specific question posed by OP is if you *yourself* set off the detector, not your bags; talk about reasonable suspicion. They cannot search unless you consent, but they will DEFINITELY call the cops on your ass, and you have very little recourse unless they used excessive force or searched you against your will. A guy whose clothing set of the LP detector and refused to be searched; gee, I wonder if he's stealing anything. Even if you're not, it's probable cause and you're going to wait until a police officer frisks you.

 

[revamp]

^^thanks for the "common-sense" post.

Many of the posts in this thread make me wonder if I want to be painted with the same brush as some members of this community.

 

[security6]

Sorry. This is off topic, but there is so much misinformation here I felt I had to clear it up.

A business is well within its rights to detain you for reasonable suspicion of theft. If they were not, Sam's Club could not go through your shopping cart and match items to the receipt (hell, that's not even reasonable suspicion; that's a DUI checkpoint). They state that they're there to ensure you have all the items you paid for including all boxes of multiple-unit items, but they're LP plain and simple.

Sam's Club doesn't detain you when you show them your receipt. It's voluntary. Kind of like allowing a cop to search you. Your rights haven't been violated because you said it was ok. This Sam's Club example doesn't show anything.

If you are requested to stop and show your purchases, do NOT keep walking. Failure to comply is definitely reasonable suspicion of theft, and loss prevention people have every right, as agents of their employer and as U.S. citizens, to detain you (citizen's arrest) and hold you until the police get there.

Sorry, this is definitely wrong. Failure to comply with a non-LEO's demand does not provide reasonable suspicion of everything. Heck, even failure to comply with a LEO does not provide reasonable suspicion of anything.

Most of the rest of the post is ok. The main theme of the post is good though. If you get detained, you can consent to search or wait around for the cops to search you.

For all the chest-thumping about lawsuits, most of these people haven't read a single case on shopkeeper's privilege. Unless you can show that the shopkeeper/employee detained you in bad faith, used excessive force, or held you for an unreasonable amount of time, you aren't going to get anything. The cases you hear about on the news involve some pretty egregious behavior. In one case for example, a Wal-mart employee testified that "we detained these ladies because they are hot." Yeah, that resulted in Wal-mart paying out a lot of money. The run of the mill cases rarely go anywhere.

 

[CoRoMo]

I really wish I would have know this on December 17th, 1997.
I lived in Texas at the time, and was exiting a JC Penny after Christmas shopping when two 'security guards' came outside into the parking lot, and each grabbed one of my arms and escorted me to a back room.

I haven't thought about that day for a long time.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Why do I get the feeling that many of the posters in this thread wouldn't see any problem with the following fictitious exchange.

The other day a cashier asked me how my day was going. WHAT THE HELL?! SHE HAS NO RIGHT TO KNOW HOW MY DAY WAS!! I said, "If you want to know how my day was, you better get a *@&!&!@# judge to subpoena me and even then I won't tell you how my day was going because of the 5th amendment!" She said, "Sorry, I was just asking. We're supposed to ask." I replied, "Well you know what, the Nazis were just following orders too. That doesn't make you any less of a fascist." I paid her for my Hot Pockets and Mountain Dew and headed towards my car.

As I was leaving, a manager who must have heard the exchange asked if I had a bad experience in the store today. WHAT THE HELL?! IS THIS DAMN SPANISH INQUISITION!? I don't live in a police state, no matter what this guy says. I told him he'd better get a subpoena too. "This is America, buddy," I said, "If you want to do something useful, why don't go waterboard some Islamofascists and find out why bin Laden bombed Pearl Harbor! You have no right to know how my day was or if I have a bad experience. Your cashier lackey couldn't get that information out of me and neither can you! I HAVE RIGHTS!" The manager said, "Please wait a minute, sir, I think there has been a misunderstanding. Why do you come over the customer service counter and the store manager can reassure of our commitment to your privacy."

This was pure lunacy! Now they want to detain me at the customer service desk?! I'm not a thief or a terrorist, why are they treating me like this? I am so getting a lawyer.

Remember folks, the store doesn't have a right to know how your day is going. If you give away that information, the next thing you know they'll be asking if you found everything alright. Who the hell's business is it if I didn't find Cool Ranch Doritos? NO ONE, THAT'S WHO! FIGHT THE POWER!

​

Just because one doesn't have a legal responsibility to do something, that doesn't mean one has to be a jerk about it.

 

[jaysouth]

At the risk of being redundant, you better read your state statutes. As a merchant in Virginia, I (and my employees) had the same arrest powers of a sworn police officer....inside my premises. This included arrest, searches, restraint and use of deadly force. And the statutes gave me immunity from civil process if my probable cause can stand up.

Trust me on this one, its been court tested many..many times over. The insurance premiums covering false arrest/imprisonment, etc are dirt cheap in Virgina.

I currently live in TN and do not have a clue what powers a merchant has here because I am not longer serving the public, thank god.

 

[brickeyee]

"Sam's Club could not go through your shopping cart and match items to the receipt "

You agreed to this when you signed the membership agreement.

 

[Zundfolge]

Dammit Jorg ... now I gotta clean coffee off my keyboard

Are you going to say that while you have the right to carry a weapon to protect your life/property, but you will deny a shop owner that same personal responsibility to protect their property through reasonable methods?

I believe what we're quibbling about here is the definition of "reasonable methods".

Reasonable is after the alarm goes off the security personnel or doorman asks if he can check my bag and check it against my receipt (reasonable is polite, reasonable means compliance on my part is voluntary, reasonable begins and ends with my bag NOT my person).

UNREASONABLE is after the alarm goes off the security personnel or doorman thinks he has a right to lay a paw on me or force me to stop or force me to let him look in my bag.

An automated security device going off is not the same thing as a store employee or loss prevention employee witnessing me stuff some merchandise in my pants (but even then, unless the store employee is also a sworn police officer they have no right to lay a paw on me).

Last I checked, I wasn't compensated for my time helping WalMart weed out their bad cashiers.

Actually you do get compensated because improvement in the quality of employees at Walmart and the reduction in theft will translate into lower prices.

 

[GoCodeBravo]

Used to stop for them before 2000 or so, when I shopped more often. Shop less these days, but since my CHL is on board, I barely even look up when the beeper goes off.

If you're ever checking your mail at a postal facility or other gov't building and it goes off while you are carrying a weapon, now THAT could be a problem!