You're carrying and the store detector goes off

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I was carrying(illegally) a few years ago, after 9/11. The alarm went off as I was exiting the record store in the local mall. I hadn't bought anything in the store and I knew a patdown would find the .357 I was toting in my jacket pocket, so I just kept on walking. That was the longest 5 minutes of my life back to my car(which of course was on the opposite side of the mall). I stopped carrying right afterward.
 
I see a lot of wannabe tough guy who don't have a clue. When the alarm goes off, that's probable cause in most states to stop you and resolve the issue. What happens next is up to you. You can talk to the clerk and let them look in your bag, or you could go to the hospital in handcuffs. If you try to be a tough guy with a special officer or off duty cop, you will learn some new ways to hurt. If they hurt you, you will go to jail and be booked. If you bleed, they really don't care as long as they cover their butt with the requisite paperwork and cites to the appropriate state code. The merchant and cops have immunity from suits by criminals in most states.

Trust me, if you want to play stupid, it will be painful, physically and financially. It is also amazing how often playing stupid will turn into felony charges.

Think about it, if its your store, your merchandise and your paycheck, you will defend what is yours. If some tough guy wants to play stupid in front of cameras and witnesses and gets beaten and bloodied, all the more deterrent for real criminals.
 
Listen Ninja, I don't usually flame a whole continent, since I'm not wild about generalities, but you Europeans have demonstrated to me and many other Americans that you wouldn't say s*** if you had a mouthful... Case in point the latest bunch of crap dumped by the E.U., and the way the whole continent quakes in fear of becoming too much like us savages in the gun-toting USofA. If you're willing to surrender your civil rights, by all means, do so. I reserve the right to exercise mine, thank you very much...

Feel free to bash the EU as much as you like if that makes you happy, just because I live here it dosent mean that I care about it or that I agree with any statements that the EU officials have made about your civil rights or the RKBA.

I would also like you to lecture me a little on the concept of civil rights and shop lifting prevention methods if you could spare the time. Say that you own some peoperty, and would like all people who visited it to either abide by a set of rules that you have laid down or stay away, how could you do that without compromising any visitors civil rights? And now that we are at it, what precautions if any would you take to detect shop lifters if you were assigned to figure out a new and better way to prevent it than using alarms and checking people who trigger them?
 
Well I think the main issue here is that most, if not all, forum members are not shoplifters.
Jaysouth your last post comes over as very aggressive. You talk about hurt, then you talk about hurt somemore, then you talk about jail. You talk about bleeding. And you aren't even a cop !
Then you hit the nail on the head ; Quote " The merchants and cops have immunity from suits by criminals in most States"
The forum members responding to this thread aren't criminals They are legitimate shoppers who have paid for their goods and are being detained due to someone elses, in this example I'll use you - incompetence.
BTW: I'm visiting the US next week and woebetide any over zealous store detective/LPO/Ninja Mall who tries to grab me if and when the beeper goes off.
As a retired police officer I have an extremely low tolerence to such individuals. Hurt, bleeding and jail will occur. But not for me.

Oh and forum member clipper. +1 and spot on Sir. I want my country back. And living in Scotland I may well have my wish granted very soon !
 
I am speaking plainly and bluntly about what happens in the real world to stupid people.

As a former merchant and a former cop, the real world is not as pretty as we would like to think.

I have seen a lot of people go to prison for being stupid at the wrong time.

Again, when the beeper goes off, what happens next is up to you. Everybody has the same chance to walk away smiling. But spouting about your civil rights and threatening to sue belies your knowledge of the real world. When the loss prevention officer asks you to open your bag and you want to be a hard man, four or five hours in jail and a trip to see the magistrate and getting your car out of impound will give you something to think about for a few days. When that off duty cop tells you to stop and you try to be a tough guy, you will be amazed at how quick you got on the ground wearing handcuffs and get a free ride in a police car.
 
jay - just how many stores employ loss prevention "officers" - to say nothing of off-duty LEOs as security?

And in the case of the latter, are they required to identify themselves as such?

I wonder because, if a fellow wage-slave got overzealous and laid hands on me because they mistakenly took me for a shoplifter, the result would be MUCH different than if it was an LEO doing it...:what:

And our LP guys are all "big and bad," they LOVE to intimidate us...I would think that if they get all of these "LEO-esque" powers here in NC, we would hear about it....a lot. Still need to do that research...

ETA: Easy enough:

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-72.1.html

(c) A merchant, or the merchant's agent or employee, or a peace officer who detains or causes the arrest of any person shall not be held civilly liable for detention, malicious prosecution, false imprisonment, or false arrest of the person detained or arrested, where such detention is upon the premises of the store or in a reasonable proximity thereto, is in a reasonable manner for a reasonable length of time, and, if in detaining or in causing the arrest of such person, the merchant, or the merchant's agent or employee, or the peace officer had at the time of the detention or arrest probable cause to believe that the person committed the offense created by this section.

Though an NC lawyer (http://www.askthelawguy.info/ask2/2006.06.01_arch.html) says that the merchant CANNOT search you or ask you to empty your pockets.
 
Run like hell to a car........I did it once had to talk to a cop about a mile down the road he got a good laugh!

after the cop pulls behind you, make a sharp right down a side street and toss some empty plastic baggies out the window... its worth the hassle.... well ok, so i knew the cop... but he thought it was great fun after he found out it was me
 
jay - just how many stores employ loss prevention "officers" - to say nothing of off-duty LEOs as security?

Electronics stores, every large department store, furriers, jewelry stores, liquor stores, boutiques, and the list goes on.

Maybe not your local grocery store or Lowes, but Costco in the holidays, and Walmart have off duty cops being paid ridiculous hourly wages to be uniformed cops carrying radios.

MD,

If the wannabe tough guys want to play stupid like they advocate in this thread, you are dead wrong, they just became criminals and will be treated as such.
 
Hmmm...don't tend to frequent large department stores, furriers, jewelry stores, liquor stores, or boutiques...

I OUGHT to frequent my local electronics store more often, as the owner is ALSO an FFL! :D (I got my last rifle transferred through him). Knowing that, I'd probably stop if he told me to...! ;)

Again though - do "moonlighting" LEOs need to identify themselves as such when doing the security guard thing? IE, yell "stop, POLICE!" - ?
 
the other day.....

i was walking out of wal mart with three large toys in my buggy, un-bagged. i had the receipt in my hand and waved it at the lp guy on the way out. he asked me to stop to check the receipt. i did so willingly, because i could have just had a receipt for a candy bar in my hand and three stolen (expensive!!) toys in the buggy. it don't cost nothing to be polite and look at things from their perspective. some of you need to lighten up.
oc71
 
Stores have property rights, too.
Once I purchase it (hand the money over or swipe card and sign) it is MY property then. Do you like people you don't know going through YOUR things? I sure don't.
 
lol LP guys are complete jerks from my experience. I'm 6'8 with red spiked hair and have spent upwards of 5k at best buy this year. 90% of the people there know me. I bought a ps3 and 5 games the last time i shopped there. On the way out the LP was just ignoring everyone that left until he got to me. Pulled me off to the side and was a complete dick. I told him to go f*** himself and got back in line to return my goods. The manager came up to me and asked me what i was doing. I told him, mr LP got fired, i got a 20% off my next purchase card.
 
You pay the premium $20 to 30 per hour for an offduty cop because he/she is wearing a department uniform with complete leather gear and a radio.

You want them near the front of the store as a deterrent and if you are lucky you can get them to walk around the parking lot once in a while.
 
Some of you guys seem a bit too confrontational for being CCW holders.

These silly measures(as well as silly gun control laws) exist because of crimminals. Blame them, not the stores. Stores lose billions of dollars annually to shoplifting which we end up paying for in higher prices...and some of you aren't willing to put up with a once in maybe 500 chance of personally setting off a false alarm?
 
Nix wins. :D

jaysouth, they're getting the full weight of the authority that the uniform represents for that twenty or thirty bucks an hour, too. It's got to be one of the best deals available to a business owner. I haven't performed any surveys to find out whether or not the taxpayers who built that Department agree that the city's PD uniform should be worn by officers who are not, at that moment, working for the whole city. Should officers be able to moonlight? Absolutely; no question. Should municipalities shop their police uniforms to the highest bidders? That's up to them.

Stores have property rights. Stores have the right and the obligation to stop shoplifting. That's all fine and dandy. Do those things make heavy-handed rudeness a good idea?

The question is this: what employee behaviors and what treatment of customers are good business?

Let's assume that a beeper goes off as I leave a store. Where have I been? Let's see: at the register, paying for the merchandise that I presented to the cashier. On camera. Before that, I was in the store, gathering merchandise. I intended to pay for it, so I didn't hide what I was doing. Presumably on camera. I assume that I've possibly been on camera since I entered the store. Stores can record the people who come into their premises; how should they behave if they want to stay in business and thrive?

As a customer, I've taken the time to go into their store. I've taken the time to pay for the merchandise that I've chosen. It helps that a lot of cashiers recognize me as a regular customer. When beepers do go off as I leave a store, I usually turn, smile, say, "Fix your equipment" and keep walking. I haven't been mistreated for it.

Store employees, when I worked in retail, were expected to keep an eye on customers. They're there to sell merchandise, either face to face or as an effect of their actual work tasks. That's why they have jobs. Since it's so much fun to pick on Wal-Mart, I'll use them as an example. At the Wal-Mart in Winona, Minnesota, I don't always see a store employee close by when I'm looking for something. I've generally been able to walk over and find one. When I do, they've invariably been eager not just to give directions but to take me to the products I wanted. My experiences with the employees at that Wal-Mart have been excellent. No, I've never been a Wal-Mart employee.

When I ran a shoe store, years ago, my assistant manager once walked out of the store, followed a shoplifter who was carrying stolen merchandise down the sidewalk and actually took the shoplifter by the arm and voiced his accusation as said criminal was entering another store. My response?

"What were you Thinking??? Don't you Ever do anything like that again; I'm not calling your Mom to tell her why you got stabbed 23 times."


Being legal doesn't make it a good idea.

I've worked at a store in a large electronics chain; they prevented shoplifting and sold a lot to each customer by sticking close by and (to my mind) grilling them about everything they might possibly want. The philosophy seemed to be, "Hey, we've got a huge amount of great stuff, and if we don't ask, we won't be able to help these folks to find what they want." A second effect of this style was that it "crowded" some potential shoplifters and kept them feeling uncomfortable so that they'd seek greener pastures elsewhere. Again, this is my own personal interpretation; I do not and cannot speak for the corporation.

I worked at a grocery store where even the big, burly introverts stocking shelves at night (me included) would make a point of at least acknowledging every customer they encountered: sometimes it was a simple "Hello" and a smile; other times, it could seem like, "Oh, I see that you have cat food in your cart (lift, puff, sweat--) how many cats do you have?"
"Oh, four? (lift, puff, sweat--) what are their names?" Depended on how the customer wanted to be treated and the signals they sent. Store employees there pay attention to their customers, and the customers keep coming back.

There was not much talk at that store of customers as potential shoplifters. They know that shoplifters exist, but they don't glare at the customers who keep the doors open (and the employees employed) as if to imply that they're suspects. They make evident their knowledge that most customers are not shoplifters. That store prides itself on how well they treat customers, and I believe that they earn that pride. They don't get stolen blind, either.

If you want to run a retail store, then deploy your people in ways that make it easier (not harder) and more pleasant (not less pleasant) for customers to come to your store and bring you money. Don't ignore your customers while they're shopping and then pounce on them as they leave. If you're a customer where they do so, then don't escalate, get out of the situation with a minimum of fuss, and tell everybody about it.

When you're a customer and you're treated poorly, tell people about it. When you get good service, tell people about that, too.
 
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In Arizona LP must observe the shoplifter remove the item from a display for sale and then go past the last point of sale makeing no attempt to pay for the merchandise also exit the store. If these requirements are not met their may still be pc for the arrest but getting a conviction would be unlikely and most often the LEO filters them at the scene documenting what happened and educating LP so it does not happen again.

If the requirements are met and the suspect runs from LP and is tackled in the parking lot and the merchandise is recovered good for LP. The suspect goes to jail and LP did nothing wrong and have a right to make that arrest.

As for being checked leaving the sams club, costco etc I have no problem with them checking my receipt. It normally takes seconds and they are just trying to keep their cashiers honest more than trying to violate any rights you have. Cashiers love to scan every 2nd or 3rd item for friends and i have seen it cost stores hundreds on just one purchase.

As for the beeping exit I normally stop and I am polite but I will not be unreasonably delayed. I would never allow them to place me in handcuffs, search me without consent but I would not be bothered handing them my receipt and opening the bag. If they requested that I go to the security office I would refuse and tell them to have a nice day and leave or request that they call an LEO (would depend on the mood im in). Their would be nothing they could do. They have not met the requirments I stated above and they would have no right to tackle you in the parking lot as you exited. If they chose too, they would could be facing possible charges and definetely a civil lawsuit.

And I agree that they do not have the right to search you, but remember you are only protected from unreasonable search and siezures by goverment official. Most likely if you were searched against your will and the LP did not meet the above requirements and nothing was found the LEO would document and possibly sent to the city or county attorney for review. Most of the LP I deal with are properly trained and do their jobs well but these would not include the greeters at wally world.

FLAG2442
 
Tell y'all what... One of you guys with way too much testosterone attitude is going to step on a sticky RFID some day... And you're going to try to walk out of the store with it on your shoe. And the dealie is going to go off (unless your boomstick is an RFID, it won't set it off).

Now, you can either deal with the situation like a responsible adult, and move things/portions of your body toward the dealie, and discover that it's on your shoe, or you can suddenly develop a hobby for the next few hours...
 
Also, this really isn't about guns. Or concealed carry.

If you have a permit, odds are you're not shoplifting. No problem. But loss prevention is now a fact of life. You're darn lucky the the store owner/management doesn't shoot you, and then claim castle doctrine as a defense.
 
I've had those go off before and the store people usually just tell me I'm okay and not to worry about it. The only things they've ever asked me for when I was stopped though was my receipt and shopping bag. I've never been asked to show my pockets or what's under my shirt. I would say they need to go through the receipt and shopping bags first to see if anything was not deactivated before inquiring about pockets etc.
 
This thread is getting ugly...

The OP asked what to do if the alarm goes off when exiting a store while carrying. There are two options: stop or keep walking. Those options have been more than explained.

Some members of the 'stop and let them search you' crowd have decided that those who don't stop are refusing to do so because they're jerks, arrogant, tough-guys, or have too much testosterone. Conversely, the 'keep walking crowd' seems to have nothing negative to say about those who choose to stop and submit to a search.

I'd like to suggest to the mods that this thread has gone as far as it should, is now getting ugly, and should be closed.

It just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of THR to insult those with different opinions.
 
In most cases, the alarms are not metal detectors unless you are at the court house or airport. Not recommended!!! You will go to jail.

A while back I bought a hunting hat at Bass Pro along with other merchandise. The store was very busy. The alarms were going off all the time as people exited the store. I purchased the hat and headed out the door. The alarm went off as it did several times while I was waiting in line at the cash register. It is their problem not mine (I thought). Anyway, I paid for it and didn't know why the alarm went off again. I get home (about 2 hr drive) and I check out my new purchases and find one of those ink things attached to the cap. I call Bass Pro and they told me to take it back to the store and they'd remove it. Well, I'm not going to drive 4 hours (2 each way) to get plastic thing removed from my cap. It was their problem again. They then told me to go to Walmart and get them remove the sensor device. I did that. The alarms went off as I entered the store. I go to customer service, they couldn't remove it (something about the design being different from their type). They said go to the mall and find someone there to remove it. I leave, alarms going off again. I go to Dicks next as it is close to Walmart. I enter and the alarms go off. (I'm spending a lot of time here and getting irritated.) I go to the registers and ask if they could take this *!#'d thing off. They checked and it was from Bass Pro, so not from their store. (Yes, I had the receipt with me.) Fortunately their device worked in removing it. Again, it was not my problem, but it became my problem if I wanted to use the cap.

I would not suggest you carry concealed unless you have a permit to carry or you're a LEO. Things that aren't your problem can become your problem.
 
There are two options: stop or keep walking. Those options have been more than explained.

Some members of the 'stop and let them search you' crowd ... stop and submit to a search.
It seems they haven't been explained well enough for everyone to understand as for some reason some folks have failed the grasp that stopping and letting them search you are not same thing. Stopping tolook for for someone to wave you through or even letting the guy check your bag against your receipt doesn't mean you have consented or even expect the guy to pat you down.

Yes, you read that correctly. You can stop and talk to the guy without acquiescing a search. Even in this thread, most people have said no one even bothers to look twice. Why would one think that marching steadfastly through the doors is the only way to avoid being searched?
 
my two cents b4 thread lock

I was an armed guard in CA, we were not allowed to detain anyone unless we witnessed the theft.
If a person was in the store or building and it was SOP we could ask them to open bags so we could look in, CA guards only have citizens arrest powers PERIOD.
If you detain anyone in CA and do not turn them over to the police then you are guilty of false imprisonment. In CA the law is on the side of the citizen who walks away. If you couldn't prove theft and you detain? You're the one going to jail not the shopper.

I have not seen Nevada laws pertaining to this.
 
I have seen them go off with a roll of wire. To tell you how stupid the things are I went into a store carrying my tools (with a roll of wire) the stupid thing went off, did my job, left same tool bag and about 2/3 of the wire. It did NOT go off. That's some messed up crap.
 
It seems to me that a security guard tackling you from behind would be plenty enough grounds to draw your weapon. If I get attacked in such a manner, I will be drawing for my own protection, how am I to know its a security guard unless they announce themselves and give me a chance to recognize them?
 
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