Employer gun free zones

GBExpat said:

That mirrors my thoughts on the subject (I only read the first 3-4 responses).

And after 2 years out of work ...

That said, I hope that all goes very well with your new job!

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As a CCW holder, I feel your pain. You have been made aware of the employers policy. Follow it or quit.

herrwalther said:

Good question. Answer is HR was closed as I work night shift. My manager had also left 10 minutes early for the day. I did short work for a security firm and they had very strict rules of when they could arrest someone. Most security are just there to answer questions to the public and call the police if a matter cannot be handled internally. So I knew I wasn't in danger of getting fired or arrested for asking a question about a knife and clarification of policy. My trainer, the person who did tell me knives under 4" were fine, is very respected at the company. So this interaction is a chance to clarify for new employees coming in.

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I'd hate to see how you show a new hire what happens if you whack a hornet's nest....

It too has always amazed me at the number of times here on the "High Road", folks suggest or condone breaking the rules or the law.

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A "rule" and a law are two different things. If an employer's rule compels you beyond the purely practical, so be it, but don't denigrate others who don't feel that way.

Especially in the Hunting forum......

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This isn't the hunting forum. Hunting has it's own laws which get followed because they're the law. The fact that they vary extremely widely just over state lines shows how far divorced they are from any sort of ethical or moral component. But they're the law.

There always is some kind of validating reasoning, generally superficial and selfish.

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Generally? Wow. In this case we're discussing whether you will disarm and be subject to possible workplace violence (as in, possibly die) or risk firing so that you may be armed and have a realistic chance of surviving and quite possibly saving the lives of others. You call that "superficial?" I assure you that folks who find themselves desperately wishing for a weapon to defend themselves don't think that's a superficial desire.

I'd accept selfish. You know, choosing to save your life is selfish in a way.

A rational choice, to tell someone straight faced you will not bring a gun on the premises while in the back of your mind you are trying to figure out how to get away with it?

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Rational means that logic is applied to the decision. That's all. So analyzing how much you want a job, the chances of being found in non-compliance with policy, the odds of being fired for that, and the discomfiture of being jobless is perfectly rational. Even counting your own emotional needs to assuage your ethical or moral qualms against rule-violating could maybe be considered rational.

If your moral convictions are that strong and in your mind, your safety is more important than the job, why take the job in the first place

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Stop and re-read that sentence and ask yourself if it really even makes sense to you. I'll bet on a second read-through, it will look as screwy to you as it does to me.

You know how many jobs I've taken which I understood I could lose for any reason, and accepted that possibility without existential crisis? All of them.

Folks that compromise rules don't only do it once, they generally make a habit of it. They are generally the ones that tend to steal from their employer, not just with material items, but extending breaks and wasting time instead of working. To say those folks are high on the list of wanted employees because of their integrity is a joke. If they had that much integrity, they would have said no when the job was offered. It's because they are a liar that they say yes in the first place.

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Oh good grief. What a load. I'd very carefully choose to carry a weapon against the possibility that I might be killed in an act of workplace violence... so therefore I'm pretty likely to steal from the company. That's not even an argument. That's just bizarre.

To suggest to someone else to take the chance of getting caught and losing their livelihood speaks volumes for those that suggest it. Ain't like it's their job that at stake.

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I've said repeatedly that YOU must weigh the odds and the stakes and choose for YOU. Not that I'LL choose for YOU. You're the only one seeking to deny someone the ability to choose for him or herself, through a projected morality ploy.

Don't belittle those folks whose word and integrity actually means something, by giving excuses why it's perfectly fine to disregard the rules when they don't suit you.

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I wouldn't do so. But don't YOU belittle those folks who make this tough choice based on a different view of the risks and benefits than you hold dear.

buck460XVR said:

Don't belittle those folks whose word and integrity actually means something...

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How dare you? This from the guy who told the OP that if he was just flipping burgers, to go ahead and violate the policy. You have no understanding of integrity, whatsoever.

If the OP wants to carry at work and have it 100% sanctioned and encouraged by management, my suggestion would be to become a Law Enforcement Officer.

At most agencies your boss will give you free ammo to shoot and body armor too .

Otherwise as mentioned if they are signing the checks, they make the rules. It is not worth losing your job over or getting arrested.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

It is not worth losing your job over

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"... unless you are actually killed or grievously injured in a workplace violence event..." -- I assume you meant to say.

Because, you know, being murdered is actually worse than getting fired.

... or getting arrested.

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If you happen to live in a state where that actually would violate the law.

So, know your state laws and follow them.

Getting murdered does suck worse than getting fired. You can think you live in some magical workplace where nothing bad ever happens. If you do, good for you. I don't . Hanging out in the real world over here.

As a long term manager overseeing lots of people, facilities and equipment I know that workplace rules are usually CYA devices designed to make the "documenting" process easier when the company wants to move someone out the door that needs to get moved out the door. If you consider them part of an integrity exercise that's good for you.

"...my daily pocket knife falls in that size..." Use the company box cutter. Cardboard and packing tape is hard on edges. As daft as that sounds.
"...considering getting a very small gun for pocket carry and..." Getting fore for cause and likely never being able to find another job anywhere. Think nose and face.
Buddy of mine worked at Canada Packers(meat processing) years ago. Told me about the stuff that went on in the plant. Lot of Portuguese meat cutters. Knife fights with company provided tools went on regularly. One guy playing house with another's wife was the usual cause.

Bobson said:

Right, right. As long as you're JUST flipping burgers, integrity doesn't matter. Please say this post is a joke, because it's literally the dumbest thing I've ever read.

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I guess my point was, that if the job is worth keeping, it is worth following the rules....and yes, the MickyDs thing was a joke.

Growing up, my Grandpa always told me a man is only as good as his word. I believed it 60 years ago and I still believe it today. You are correct, in most cases, a job is not a want, but a need. To put that need in jeopardy because of knowingly breaking the rules, sorry, it just doesn't fit for me. I work in a Hgh School, guess what? I can't carry and it's just not a matter of getting fired if I get caught. Does it make me uncomfortable? Yes, it does, it's not just my safety being jeopardized, but all the kids around me. Still, I realize other are other means of protecting myself and them if it ever comes to it. Awareness of one's surroundings and those characters within it is most important, with or without a firearm. Knowing how to use escape routes, distraction and other tools for defense are important. While I would prefer a gun, I gave my word when I was hired. Grandpa's words still haunt me.

Sam1911 said:

Oh good grief. What a load. I'd very carefully choose to carry a weapon against the possibility that I might be killed in an act of workplace violence... so therefore I'm pretty likely to steal from the company. That's not even an argument. That's just bizarre.

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Nuttin bizarre about it. Just the facts. Ask any cop or Game warden. Folks that feel they are above the law in one scenario, generally believe they are above the law in others. Same goes for rules. Just human nature.......but I'm sure all of us here at THR are above all of that and are the exception.


Sam, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. We are all different and have different definitions of honesty and what a clear and definite threat is. As I said, I too would rather have my CWC weapon with me at all times, but I made a promise and a commitment not to. Comes down to the value one puts on that. Obviously, it's not the same for all.

I don't really see how integrity enters into the conversation here. This is a legal question, and a question of employer policy, not really a question of morality.

If you believe you are in danger at work and feel the need to carry, then breaking the rules doesn't really seem like the best solution. Looking for an alternate employer does. It's the same as when someone asks THR about acquiring more firepower because they live in a bad neighborhood. A bigger gun isn't the answer there. Ultimately, moving to a different part of town is.

If the risk of losing your life or being attacked on the job outweighs your fear of losing your job or facing prosecution, then go ahead and do what you gotta do. But I'd encourage you to continue applying to other jobs. If you just don't like that you can't carry, is it really that big of a deal, or is THR just a convenient place to complain about it? I'm asking, not being snide.

Folks that feel they are above the law in one scenario, generally believe they are above the law in others. Same goes for rules. Just human nature.......

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So you are saying here that you never speed because it's against the law. You've never changed lanes without a blinker, right? Ever come to a rolling stop up there in Alaska when no one was around? If you state that here, in front of your peers, then I guess you can preach from your high horse. If you break these laws (not rules, but laws) then you are a hypocrite. I believe you are a good person who does break the law when it is convenient for you like the rest of us do (traffic LAWS) but hey, I guess I'm the only one here who can admit that I break some laws but am still a good guy. (Those are traffic laws, right? Not traffic rules, right?)

If you just don't like that you can't carry, is it really that big of a deal, or is THR just a convenient place to complain about it? I'm asking, not being snide.

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It's a "Catch-22" question. Most people never see a violent workplace encounter where someone is killed or seriously injured. For them, once they retire and are out of the workplace, they can say "nope, it wasn't worth having a weapon with me."

For some other selection of people, the luckiest of them are still alive to say, "Yeah, I desperately wish I'd have had a gun." And the unlucky don't have much to say about anything anymore.

The one thing that both groups have in common is that very few of them ever would have said, "Wow, I'm gonna need a gun ..."

Sure, if you THINK you will need to defend yourself against a lethal threat, avoid that situation at all and any cost. That's the easy answer.

The many folks who just go to work every day, day after day, in a "nice" environment, following the rules, never thought they needed to defend themselves, but found out otherwise, suddenly, ... yeah, it's a big deal.

The thing is, it's a choice you have to make. And the only piece of information you really can rely on is that you WON'T know ahead of time if you're right or wrong.

When I started at my current job, the owner was a very pro-2A kind of guy. He had NRA stickers on his office door, and could occasionally be found at his desk surfing the web for gun parts. We always engaged in fun conversations about guns and shooting.

Fast forward three years, and the owner's son has now taken the reigns of the business. He's not nearly as gun-friendly as his father. On his first day as President and CEO, he posted signs in the office and the shop stating "No guns allowed in this building." They are not the legal signs required by the state, but they are the new company policy. As such, I abide by it. I do not agree it is a good policy, though. I know for fact that there are other employees here who do not comply. That's their choice as well.

We all face that same choice every time we see one of those signs anywhere, whether they carry the weight of the law or not.

Sam1911 made excellent points.

I would add one thing to this comment by someone else:

A rational choice, to tell someone straight faced you will not bring a gun on the premises while in the back of your mind you are trying to figure out how to get away with it?

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Many companies that have these policies written on one of the last pages of the company handbook never require you to sign, acknowledge or even read the thing. And plenty of times its there for insurance purposes (or so some lawyer told them).

One example is if a company has a no weapons policy, yet the owners have brought in rifles or shotguns to pass to someone to fix or to lend to others. How important should an employee regard this policy if there is plenty of situations that set a precedent of violating it? Not all companies take it as seriously as others (like the OPs that stated you can already violate a portion of it regarding knives).

Sam1911 said:

The thing is, it's a choice you have to make. And the only piece of information you really can rely on is that you WON'T know ahead of time if you're right or wrong.

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I agree with you of course Sam. If you know you'll need a gun, then you shouldn't go at all, you should call the cops. And of course, no one knows the future. I wish all law abiding citizens could legally carry 100% of the time.

Between animals, and an irrationally angry land owner, I've been confronted with workplace violence a few times. One dog out there has no idea how lucky he is that I wasn't armed the day he walked up to me wagging his tail and bit me squarely in the leg.

It really does come down to weighing your options, considering all the risks if you do or do not carry at work, and as you said, making a choice.

Personally I choose to follow the law and rules of my employer and not carry. If it's a good choice I'll have a good career and retire some day. If it's a bad choice, I'll be dead and won't care anyway.

By the way I'm not saying anyone should do as I do. Do what you gotta do. Just sharing.

I may or may not be carrying at work, if carrying I am violating the company No Weapons policy. Funny, when I asked the HR manager to define weapon all I got was stuttering.

For me - "Their house, their rules" in this conversation is superseded by- My Life, My Rules. They provide me a paycheck in return for the service I provide. They are my employer but they do not own me and if that's a problem I have always accepted any consequences for my actions.

Most everyone I work with knows my stance on my right to bear arms. Most everyone I work with knows I love to shoot and collect firearms. No one ever asks me if I am carrying, if they did the answer would be "No".

I never delegate my safety or security to another party and neither do my loved ones.

Personally I would ignore the Company policy. Just carry concealed and keep it concealed.

OP, check your state laws. If caught is it a misdemeanor, a felony or nothing at all? If you get caught with a firearm at work, losing your job might be the least of your worries especially if it is a felony in your state. If it is a felony you won't have to worry about carrying at work again, you won't be able to own a gun. In Tennessee it is illegal to carry a weapon into a government building or into a private business that has a clearly visible sign prohibiting weapons. I don't agree with the law but I abide by it so I don't lose my right to carry concealed or to own firearms.

I'm not going to tell you you should or shouldn't I'm just going to say this;

If you choose to carry at work tell absolutely no one period. In fact since you're new and they don't know you don't even mention guns at work.

There is usually a zero tolerance policy around that and it is certainly not worth losing a job over.

Several of the folks contributing to this thread seem to have no problem violating their company policy or depending on jurisdiction state law just so they can carry at work.

While it would be great to carry 100% of the time at 100% of the places we go, that is usually not possible. Instead of publicly professing your intentions of breaking the law or your company policy which could result in the loss of your livelihood or your family's livelihood through unemployment or imprisonment (which could also result in suspension or termination of your right to possess firearms), maybe making efforts to get the authors of the legislation that does not allow workplace carry in your state unelected might be a better choice. I think that would be a more High Road approach.

I am all for protecting yourself in the workplace, but with the end result possibly being no longer being able to legally possess firearms, I would either find a Pro-Gun Company to work for or enter into a profession that allows you to carry at all times (They are out there).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I work for the local Govt. and they have no problems with employees carrying and even provide the local PD range for all full time city employees to use. Guns always seem to be a common conversation item whenever my boss pays a visit.

Several of the folks contributing to this thread seem to have no problem violating their company policy or depending on jurisdiction state law just so they can carry at work.

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Or DO have a "problem" with it, but like many other things in life, accept that there are little disappointments we all swallow in order to get on with living. There are many things that I really don't like about the way things are or the choices I (may) have to make. I still may decide I have to take one of the many paths I don't like.

In this case, it seems folks could choose to go unarmed, which they have a problem with, or choose to go armed against company policy, which they have a problem with, or choose to quit their jobs, which they have a problem with. Either of those paths could be a the most rational choice, depending on the individual.

We, of course, DO NOT condone breaking the law, however.

While it would be great to carry 100% of the time at 100% of the places we go, that is usually not possible.

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True, but in this discussion, that's a non sequitur. Obviously, for the purposes of this discussion, the workplace (where LEGAL) is someplace you CAN carry, even if it violates company policy. You have the ability, just not the authorization. The decision here is whether you carry without that official blessing, or in direct violation of a "rule."

Instead of publicly professing your intentions of breaking the law or your company policy which could result in the loss of your livelihood or your family's livelihood, maybe making efforts to get the authors of the legislation that does not allow workplace carry in your state unelected might be a better choice. I think that would be a more High Road approach.

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That's a wonderful sentiment, but a bit of a false dichotomy. Why in the world would that ever be an "either-or" situation? One fervently hopes we're all "making efforts" to unelect bad legislators every year.

But whether a legislator is elected or not, and whether s/he pushes forth legislation to remove an employers ability to restrict carrying weapons, and whether other legislators vote for that, and whether it ever becomes law, etc...that's all pretty far from anything one man or woman can control. Life and death is far more immediate than that, and each individual carries that responsibility within themselves. Their life, their decisions to make.

Rational means that logic is applied to the decision. That's all. So analyzing how much you want a job, the chances of being found in non-compliance with policy, the odds of being fired for that, and the discomfiture of being jobless is perfectly rational.

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First let me say I have first hand experience with being laid off for a extended period of time. Life gets really tough after the unemployment benefits run out, can't sell your home and bankruptcy is needed. When going through all of that most any decent paying job looks pretty good.

Lots of opinions and thoughts have been expressed BUT I have to take issue with the O.P.'s interest in violating company policy for the following reasons;

I viewed a employee that has worked for the company for several years differently than a new hire.

A long time employee has a considerable investment in his job and company that makes quitting impractical. Many things in society change that are beyond our control such as workplace violence. For a long time employee to say I like my job and company but the conditions have changed so much I need to take personal security precautions for myself and even my coworkers whom I like and enjoy working with is a rational thought process. Balancing the need for personal security against the consequences of being caught violating company policy due to working conditions changing over the years while working of the company is probably a unpleasant choice.

However with the O.P. he has no investment in the company he just started working for. In fact he is up front about his intention to carry a firearm into his workplace as soon as he started working for the company. In his case if his personal safety on the job with this company is such a concern that he feels he has to be armed then he shouldn't take the job. In this instance staying at home continuing to play Mr. Mom is a far better less risker choice.