Said it better than I ever could!
Do we scare off would be shooters
- Thread starter olafhardtB
- Start date
- Status
Said what, exactly? That she thinks she is safe and proficient? That training is unnecessary?Shaq said:
First, she might think she is safe and proficient, but that doesn't actually tell us anything about how safe and proficient she is. Certainly I've seen plenty of folks who were not safe or proficient with their guns but who thought they were doing just fine.
Second, she seems to conclude that training is unnecessary based only on her own experience and her self-assessment that she is safe enough and proficient enough to satisfy herself. But I've still seen folks improve with good training.
Third, even if she has significant natural talent and was able to reach an notable level of proficiency on her own, good training will still take her further.
Last edited:
To a firearms instructor, NO ONE should touch a gun without professional training, or else they'll shoot themselves & everyone around them. (Pay me or take your chances)
Do you really think that everyone on this board who advises someone to seek out training is an instructor? That this is some vast firearms training industry conspiracy?
Does your foot taste good? You keep putting it in your mouth repeatedly, it must be delicious.
Keep in mind that there is another incentive going on here that has nothing to do with safety or proficiency...it has to do with money (as a few others have noted).
To a dentist, everyone needs dental work.
To a doctor, everyone needs a physical & lots of "lifesaving" drugs or we'll all die young.
To a veterinarian, everyone's dog needs complete lab work on every visit.
To a firearms instructor, NO ONE should touch a gun without professional training, or else they'll shoot themselves & everyone around them. (Pay me or take your chances)
Ah, so you are here using a sort of reverse psychology/devil's advocate...you think that if you talk so loudly about how wasteful and unnecessary training is, and we all explain the benefits of choosing to get training...you will get more students to pay you money for your (supposed) training services.
I gotcha figured out.
BTW, I instruct and don't get paid a dime. In fact, it costs me time and money and I don't get to shoot as much as I would if I didn't instruct. Be glad you get people to pay you money for your training, especially since you yourself have never received any training and you don't know very much (example, you were shocked to find out people can get carry licenses without passing tests).
That's a pretty sweet deal you have going, there.
45_auto
Member
susieq said:
Have you ever had any training that taught grade-school level spelling, punctuation, and sentence structure? If so, I hope that your safety training was more effective.
I would not be surprised if your self-evaluation of your safety and proficiency were in line with this guy's views of his safety and proficiency:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ain2by4Fums
susieqz
Member
with my 22/45, i can shoot 2'' groups at 25 measured yards one hand.
how much better will training make me?
i can hit a bunny at any reasonable handgun range.
i have had zero instruction.
i do not have accidental discharges because my finger is never near the trigger until i'm ready to fire.
i do not point my gun at people ever.
this stuff is just not as hard as you guys pretend.
how much better will training make me?
i can hit a bunny at any reasonable handgun range.
i have had zero instruction.
i do not have accidental discharges because my finger is never near the trigger until i'm ready to fire.
i do not point my gun at people ever.
this stuff is just not as hard as you guys pretend.
buck460XVR
Member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2007
- Messages
- 10,103
Almost hilarious to see gun owners trashing each other in a thread about trashing fellow gun owners..........
Well, for starters, did you read the very first reply to this thread? Maybe this part?
If all you do is slow fire target shoot your pistol in your back yard almost every day to the tune of thousands/tens of thousands of round a year and you have achieved everything you want with your shooting proficiency, I'm not sure who is going to recommend you go get training, or what training.
susieq, has anybody on THR recommended you get training? If so could you quote/link that, please?
Nothing more entertaining to me than women who can outshoot loudmouth, bragging, macho men! Especially men who think they're something special & they're "stars" in their elite activity of shooting.
lol, what are you talking about?
Still waiting for you to enlighten us on what kind of trainer you are, BTW.
Theohazard
Member
There was a thread a while back where susieq advocated carrying a self-defense handgun without a round in the chamber. Many of us pointed out why that was a bad idea and why it's something that virtually every single expert recommends against doing. We may have recommended she get training at that point.Warp said:
I think much of this thread is very telling. Many of the people who are downplaying the value of training are showing that they themselves could benefit from training. And that's not surprising, most of us could benefit from more training, whether formal or informal. The key here is to recognize that fact. Again, the Dunning-Kruger effect is on full display here.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
Not for you it isn't.
Let that sink in. It is not hard for YOU.
I am an instructor and I hold a free class once a week where ladies (we call it the "better half group") can come in and get started shooting the right way. We teach the 4 basic safety rules, how to make you handgun safe, how to hold your handgun etc.
Some VERY intelligent people come through with NO firearms experience and they do not find it so easy. For some of them that .22 pistol is the first gun they have ever fired.
I teach and enforce the 4 basic safety rules. I am not a jerk about it, but I correct them every time I see an infraction. Every infraction.
The class has grown so large that we needed two separate times for these ladies. And then we needed extra instructors to help.
I have been told countless times that the people who attend feel it is a very safe and fun environment. Safe and fun.
Safe because they know the rules and they know that everyone else knows the rules.
Safe because they know that I enforce the rules.
Fun because I am not a jerk about it but I am firm.
You know what I hear a lot?
"My husband was trying to teach me and he was getting frustrated because 'its not that hard'."
To them.
/$.02
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Susie, I would not denigrate your accomplishments in teaching yourself to shoot, and teaching yourself firearms safety. And you are perfectly correct in that you are safe, and a decent shot, because you WANT to be and so have sought out materials and resources -- like the help you've gotten here -- in becoming so.
That sounds like you're doing well. How much better could training make you? I don't know. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish and what training you seek out.
Want to do slow-fire .22 shooting, standing one-handed? Great. Take that to a bullseye competition and see how you do. Then, ask around and find out who can teach you to work up to where you can get yourself into the running to actually win a match.
You may not care about competition, but when you ask "how much better" it is always good to recognize in all humility that you don't know how much better is possible, yet, and you don't know whether you could be taught to get to that point.
Do you know that great shooters, recognized as top competitors, still train with other great shooters and recognized coaches? Do you think that's because they don't have your natural talent?
Well, that's cool. How quickly can you draw and engage a target? How fast can you shoot common proficiency drills like the "El Prez" or "Mozambique"? How would you do in a USPSA or IDPA match? How bloody, sadly, long would it take you to figure out on your own all the (basic!) techniques for working not on a "square range" and engaging multiple, moving, and disappearing targets?
It is too, too easy to say, "Hey, I can hit a bunny..." and think you're a great shot. You ARE a good shot, clearly. How much more proficient could you become? Hard to say. What a whole lot of others can tell you with absolute certainty is that getting there on your own will be a loooonng, frustrating road, with an uncertain result.
How much have you practiced gunfighting skills like shooting from retention positions, creating space to employ a firearm, retaining your weapon, and so forth?
How much have you been taught about how the lawful use of force works in the real world, if you expect to depend on a firearm to save your life some day?
You figuring all that out on your own, with "zero instruction?" I don't recommend that.
D), formal and casual, and I can absolutely say that I've made mistakes that were dangerous, seen a WHOLE lot of other shooters make errors big and small, missed a MOUNTAIN of targets I shouldn't have, been put in situations that I never considered, figured out a lot of stuff as best I could and got a LOT of help from trainers, teachers, qualified friends, and other competitors, and I say EVERYONE benefits from good training.
Even you, believe it or not.
That sounds like you're doing well. How much better could training make you? I don't know. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish and what training you seek out.Want to do slow-fire .22 shooting, standing one-handed? Great. Take that to a bullseye competition and see how you do. Then, ask around and find out who can teach you to work up to where you can get yourself into the running to actually win a match.
You may not care about competition, but when you ask "how much better" it is always good to recognize in all humility that you don't know how much better is possible, yet, and you don't know whether you could be taught to get to that point.
Do you know that great shooters, recognized as top competitors, still train with other great shooters and recognized coaches? Do you think that's because they don't have your natural talent?
Well, that's cool. How quickly can you draw and engage a target? How fast can you shoot common proficiency drills like the "El Prez" or "Mozambique"? How would you do in a USPSA or IDPA match? How bloody, sadly, long would it take you to figure out on your own all the (basic!) techniques for working not on a "square range" and engaging multiple, moving, and disappearing targets?
It is too, too easy to say, "Hey, I can hit a bunny..." and think you're a great shot. You ARE a good shot, clearly. How much more proficient could you become? Hard to say. What a whole lot of others can tell you with absolute certainty is that getting there on your own will be a loooonng, frustrating road, with an uncertain result.
How much have you practiced gunfighting skills like shooting from retention positions, creating space to employ a firearm, retaining your weapon, and so forth?
How much have you been taught about how the lawful use of force works in the real world, if you expect to depend on a firearm to save your life some day?
You figuring all that out on your own, with "zero instruction?" I don't recommend that.
Ok, that is a very good goal, but you're very new at this and you've not seen a whole lot of different kinds of scenarios where you might have to figure out how to handle a firearm without endangering anyone. It is NOT rocket science, no, but some quality instruction helps a great many people see and practice for situations they never considered.
Hmmm, well, I've been shooting for a good long while now, in a great many different kinds of environments, sporting disciplines, organized, unorganized, DIS-organized
D), formal and casual, and I can absolutely say that I've made mistakes that were dangerous, seen a WHOLE lot of other shooters make errors big and small, missed a MOUNTAIN of targets I shouldn't have, been put in situations that I never considered, figured out a lot of stuff as best I could and got a LOT of help from trainers, teachers, qualified friends, and other competitors, and I say EVERYONE benefits from good training.Even you, believe it or not.
Last edited:
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Did I miss where Susie shot against someone here? Has her happy but limited success proven ... ah ... anything?
Some of my posts could be interpreted that way, and I stand by them. No matter how good you are, good training can help you stay good and get better. Even top athletes, those who win championships in their respective sports, get coaching.Warp said:
So good training, and more training, is never a bad idea. A lot, of course, depends on your personal goals. But who is as smart as he/she ever wants to be and knows as much as he/she ever wants to know?
I continue to take classes in law, even though I'm retired. Some I take because they are necessary to maintain my active Bar membership, but many I take because I want to learn what is being taught. Yes, I can study on my own, and I do. But in over 65 years of learning things, I've found that instruction is an important and useful addition to self-study.
Shaq said:
Self-evaluation is generally questionable. One of the benefits of participating in classes and competition is that in those activities one is evaluated by others.
The feedback I've gotten from instructors and the scores on qualifiers I've shot in classes offer me an objective sense of how good (or sometimes not so good) I am and how to improve. The scores I've shot in competition serve as a recorded, public measure of what I can, and can not, do.
And whether or not I think I'm proficient and safe gun handler doesn't matter in class or competition (especially something like USPSA, IDPA or Cowboy Action). What matters in class or competition is whether the instructor/range officer and my fellow students/shooters think I'm safe.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Hmmm, well, I've been shooting for a good long while now, in a great many different kinds of environments, sporting disciplines, organized, unorganized, DIS-organized
Even you, believe it or not.
I'll quote myself here to add the old maxim that the more experience one gets, and the more they learn, the more they will realize they DON'T know.
A novice tends to think it's all simple and they've got it all figured out.
An expert, and a person with wisdom, realizes that there is more to learn than we have time in life to learn it, and will seek out those who can teach them more so as not to waste precious dwindling years reveling in their own awesomeness.
buck460XVR
Member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2007
- Messages
- 10,103
Yes and while training helps, there is also no substitute for experience. While I teach hunter safety and my students finish the class knowing all the rules and safe gun handling, I cannot teach them how to control their excitement when that first big buck walks out in front of them. While they know to identify their target and what's beyond it, their inexperience makes them focus only on the deer and not what's behind it, especially if the deer is in their scope and/or running. In the haste to get a follow up shot on a wounded deer that has dragged itself under a fence, will they cross the fence safely the way we trained them or forget it in their excitement. Same could be said about the CWCer that has a BG pull a gun in a crowded store. While one can train for it, experience is important. My dad always told me that during his tour of the Pacific Theater in WWII, that every time they invaded an Island, the majority of casualties were from first timers and replacements, even tho everyone was trained the same.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
And yet, they trained as hard as they were able in the time they had leading up to deployment. NOT training would have lead to utter failure.
"Here's a book, Private, go read about what you should do in battle. See ya' on the front!" Fortunately, no.
Truly capable people don't train and practice so they'll get it right under stress. They train and practice until they can't get it wrong.
And the other great maxim to consider is that practice does not make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect. How do you know what to practice and how, so that you aren't simply building and reinforcing bad habits? The ability to hit a piece of paper while standing at a firing line might look like success, until something changes and you're out of your element. A good trainer (and lots of good trainers, over time) can help you build skills that translate to multiple situations and can prepare you for applying your abilities in practical, real-world situations.
"Here's a book, Private, go read about what you should do in battle. See ya' on the front!"
Fortunately, no.Truly capable people don't train and practice so they'll get it right under stress. They train and practice until they can't get it wrong.
And the other great maxim to consider is that practice does not make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect. How do you know what to practice and how, so that you aren't simply building and reinforcing bad habits? The ability to hit a piece of paper while standing at a firing line might look like success, until something changes and you're out of your element. A good trainer (and lots of good trainers, over time) can help you build skills that translate to multiple situations and can prepare you for applying your abilities in practical, real-world situations.
And classes only teach what they are designed to teach and for certain purposes.buck460XVR said:
Learning builds on prior learning. Classes like hunter education and the NRA Basic Handgun class I and my friends teach only lay the foundation for further learning.
The people I know who are truly accomplished in various endeavors got there using a variety of learning tools: classes and clinics; private coaching; self-study; informal peer-to-peer coaching; and practice. No one did it all himself, and no one used only one learning tool.
jcwit
member
Hey, I already know everything!
susieqz
Member
the problem with most training is that they spend lots of time on stance, n other thigs i oppose.
i have real life isusses with rattlers who sometimes want to hurt me.
i don't know when i'll be threatened.
so, i practice weight on right leg, weight on left leg, standing tall, crouching.
i shot to the front, to the left, to the right.
i'm currently working on point shooting. i should have some results to post by summer.
everyone knows you can't be accurate point shooting, right?
well, after a few thousand rounds of practice, i usually hit cans at 5-7 yards already, from the hip.
after another 5,000 rounds or so i think i'll be working at 15 yards, even tho instructors say this can't be done.
i think formal instruction can be limiting.
i simply don't want people telling me something can't be done. i'll find out for myself.
i do have an advantage most people don't. i shoot in my back yard most days.
i'll report when i get good at point shooting.
i have real life isusses with rattlers who sometimes want to hurt me.
i don't know when i'll be threatened.
so, i practice weight on right leg, weight on left leg, standing tall, crouching.
i shot to the front, to the left, to the right.
i'm currently working on point shooting. i should have some results to post by summer.
everyone knows you can't be accurate point shooting, right?
well, after a few thousand rounds of practice, i usually hit cans at 5-7 yards already, from the hip.
after another 5,000 rounds or so i think i'll be working at 15 yards, even tho instructors say this can't be done.
i think formal instruction can be limiting.
i simply don't want people telling me something can't be done. i'll find out for myself.
i do have an advantage most people don't. i shoot in my back yard most days.
i'll report when i get good at point shooting.
What training courses/classes have you taken?
susieqz
Member
warp, outside of a stupid hunter training course, i have taken no courses.
i have read books, lots of army manuals n this site.
i just work hard.
it took me 7500 practice rounds to get good groups at 25 yards. i'm a slow learner.
i suppose a trainer could could have got me there faster, but i'm having fun.
i have read books, lots of army manuals n this site.
i just work hard.
it took me 7500 practice rounds to get good groups at 25 yards. i'm a slow learner.
i suppose a trainer could could have got me there faster, but i'm having fun.
200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
It doesn't matter. She is self-taught, and not only that, she wants to be better. She wants to continue to learn, to practice. She knows most of the Rules of Gun Safety (whether they're Gunsite's or from the NRA or from one of her firearms' owners manuals). She seems to be a natural at it. I can see that in some people.
I say all that sincerely, not sarcastically... and I'm not trying to get laid, either. But what suzieqz has a chance at that our good friend Shaq probably doesn't, is the chance to grow beyond the level of her natural talent with additional, specialized training... because she is *willing* to learn more.
Thanks Corpral_Agarn for your post. Indeed, some folks who are willing to learn how to shoot a firearm can still be afraid of them, and only because of inexperience. My wife is in a similar boat, as am I, being guiltly of the attitude, "Honey, it's not that difficult...". We've already agreed that she may take her first real instruction from a firearms instructor rather than from me, even though I proceed every day that I have an opportunity to talk with her about guns and shooting, with the "soft sell". Last thing I want is for her to fear shooting or hate the learning process. The change in her attitude about guns in the years we've been married is very encouraging.
.
- Status
Similar threads
