Self defense .22rimfires?

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Why for crying out loud??? That thing is twice the size of a Glock 43. You could be carrying a compact 9mm just as easily, and with a higher capacity.

Of course I could.
I carry a 357, and a 9mm BUG.
That's my wifes plinker in the pic above.

But stay on topic.
You said :
"I know this isn't what you want to hear, but ditch the .22 and get a good knife."
That's just foolish.


I wanted to give you a visual of just how foolish that advice is.

Fyi:
Bad Ninja is a screen name.
Im not really a Ninja.
.22lr > knife for us mere mortals.
 
It sucks to admit, but my abilities to fight with fists, let alone a knife, are severely diminished. Bad knees, bad back, bad elbow, bad bicep, etc. etc.

So, I have to rely on trying to avoid confrontations or possibly use a handgun if I can't. A knife is still a tool at my age, but it's not a fighting weapon for me.

One thing I've thought of is the obvious bore size visible at the muzzle of a .22 pistol. It makes me think that if one had a .22 like a Bersa that the first 1/4" or so at the muzzle could be counter bored to look like a .380. Just for appearances sake. Y'all can flame me for that thought, but if I get to the point that all I could shoot well is my .22 Bersa, well . . . food for thought anyway.
 
Of course I could.
I carry a 357, and a 9mm BUG.
That's my wifes plinker in the pic above.

But stay on topic.
You said :
"I know this isn't what you want to hear, but ditch the .22 and get a good knife."
That's just foolish.


I wanted to give you a visual of just how foolish that advice is.

Fyi:
Bad Ninja is a screen name.
Im not really a Ninja.
.22lr > knife for us mere mortals.

A visual? I know what a galldanged pistol looks like. I don't need you to post random photos of .22 pistols as if that's somehow going to change my mind. A .22lr is not a defensive weapon, and if you use it as such you are bluffing, and that's a dangerous game to be playing. If you actually have to use it, and even if your shot placement is perfect, there's a high probability that it won't penetrate deep enough to stop the threat, and that's doubly true of a tiny barrel like the NAA and Bobcat. Do whatever you want, but do so knowing you're abandoning all rational thought.
 
A visual? I know what a galldanged pistol looks like. I don't need you to post random photos of .22 pistols as if that's somehow going to change my mind. A .22lr is not a defensive weapon, and if you use it as such you are bluffing, and that's a dangerous game to be playing. If you actually have to use it, and even if your shot placement is perfect, there's a high probability that it won't penetrate deep enough to stop the threat, and that's doubly true of a tiny barrel like the NAA and Bobcat. Do whatever you want, but do so knowing you're abandoning all rational thought.


No one is saying it is.
I surely didn't.

What I am addressing (and you keep avoiding) is your earlier incorrect statement that a knife is better than a .22lr handgun.

Its not, unless you are Rambo.
Advising anyone to use a knife over a gun for Self Defense is ridiculous.
 
I have read this one off and on, and I might offer a couple thoughts on the debate between solids and hollows, deflection vs. penetration...

For the moderators - I will avoid being graphic, but if this is deemed to be so, please delete or edit as appropriate.

I have killed LITERALLY thousands of raccoons in the last 25+ years with a 22LR, many of them - a vast majority that is - at what are equivalent to self defense ranges. A significant portion of these at only a few inches. I have studied at length how 22LR's kill these raccoons during the skinning process.

What I can say, after physical comparison of human skulls against that of game animals, including raccoons, is that our skulls and facial bones ARE thicker than that of raccoons. I can also say with confidence the rib cage is considerably thinner in a raccoon, and the vitals are much closer to the entrance surface, and of course, much smaller in terms of pass through penetration.

There IS a remarkably large and practically measurable difference between solids and hollow points in terms of killing power on raccoons.

In the shooting of raccoons, a majority of those hit in the brain box die very quickly. I would venture half of these go stiff immediately, and half convulse uncontrolledly for a matter of seconds before succumbing. A small portion will be dazed temporarily, falling out of the tree, then will fight hounds for as long as it takes to put another bullet into their brain. Upon examining these during the skinning process, brain box hits for the first shot are easily confirmed.

I have a collection of bullets I've captured over the years, almost unilaterally hollow points, which mushroomed against the skull of the raccoon and failed to penetrate the brain box. I will say here, some of these dropped flat dead upon impact, however, I do recall having a few carcasses which I skinned and found multiple slugs flattened against the skull, which fought long and hard. I do not recall a single solid bullet deflecting on the facial bones of a raccoon - and you can be assured - as you skin the face of an animal, a deflection would be painfully obvious.

I HAVE skinned many coons with glancing impacts - wherein a bullet makes a long cut along the periphery of the animal. I would be lying if I could tell whether these were deflected impacts as opposed to tangential glancing impacts, however, the evidence in tissue and skin doesn't lie - some bullets obviously skipped off of the skull bones. Objectively, some of these DID kill the raccoon instantly, but as expected, that has been as rare as the occurrence of a brain penetrating shot which did NOT offer an instant kill. BOTH do happen. Naturally, a humans heftier facial structure would increase the opportunity for this deflection to happen.

I also have recovered hollow point slugs from the inside of raccoon ribcages, those which failed to then penetrate the vitals. In fairness, I have recovered solids from the internal cavity of raccoons as well, however, these are typically recovered on the BACK SIDE, not the front side, and have always - every one of them I can recall - been lodged in the spine after a chest shot (looking up from under the coon, through the chest). Typically, solids do exit a raccoon on a vitals shot, but the same cannot be said for hollow points, and I would more readily attest the opposite is more typical.

My uncles and father, when I was in high school, assigned to me the rule of not being allowed to take anything but head shots on coons with my Ruger Pistol and hollow points, as it was immediately obvious how long and hard these coons fought once they hit the ground, compared to those shot with solids, or those shot with a rifle. Reminding here, I was shooting a 6 7/8" barrel, not a snubnosed pocket pistol. The difference in their "not deadness" was significant enough they would stop me and ask, any time it was obvious a headshot wasn't available, what bullets I had loaded. Body shot raccoons do often take more than one bullet, even with solids from a rifle, but we often ask each other the rhetorical question whether the follow ups are really needed, as they do die quickly - just not immediately. It didn't take long before that rule was expanded, by my own realization, that I shouldn't be hunting raccoons with hollow points at all when using my pistol.

I'll also recount a raccoon I carried for a half mile, slung on a bit of braided twine, which I had shot with the muzzle of my Ruger Mark II against the top of his head, dead between his ears, as my dogs had stretched him in a grain bunk of an abandoned barn. As we hunted another part of the creek, he crawled across my flatbed pick up and was in a tree nearby when we returned. The substantial blood trail in the snow was easy to follow. He WAS shot with a hollow point the first shot, and then with a solid by my father with a rifle to finish him from the tree, after which he fought our dogs considerably before yielding. He must have been unconscious as I carried him, as I didn't notice breathing, and he hung as if dead in my sling. This was not the only instance of a raccoon seemingly rising from the dead, but certainly was one which stands out in my mind, since I carried him for 15-20min as "dead," and the life he had in him after the second shot and fighting the dogs then was remarkable. Some animals just do not want to die.

For those not familiar with hound hunting raccoons, it goes as such: hounds track the coons through the creek, driving them up into a tree. The hound sounds tree, the hunter then shoots the raccoon from the tree. The hounds, if the coon doesn't fall dead still, will fight the coon, either until dead, or until stretched so the Hunter can put another bullet in its brain. I can say, I have seen brain shot raccoons fight 3-4 dogs of three times their weight for minutes on end, and have seen many vital shot coons get the better of the dogs on the ground to escape to another tree.

So in all of this killing of 15-30lb, sometimes heavier raccoons with thousands and thousands of 22LR bullets, and in examining the internal damage, and observing speed of death, there is NO COMPULSION in me to EVER recommend ANY 22LR load for defensive use against 150-300lb humans.
 
Grampajack, you're right. The Walther P22 is bigger than a G43 (though I doubt twice as big.) But I agree with him that, given a choice between that and a knife, and possessing only my current skills, I'd much rather have the P22 for self-defense than the knife.

Still, I'd not recommend a .22 caliber firearm for defense to anyone who can handle anything bigger. There just isn't any reason I can think of.
 
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Do whatever you want, but do so knowing you're abandoning all rational thought.

Pot calling the kettle black. Inciting people to use a knife as a self defense tool borders on criminally irresponsible behavior. A person attempting to use a knife defensively without a lot of training in its use as a weapon is worse than bare-handed SD. Almost as bad as suggesting a spear or bow and arrow.
 
Pot calling the kettle black. Inciting people to use a knife as a self defense tool borders on criminally irresponsible behavior. A person attempting to use a knife defensively without a lot of training in its use as a weapon is worse than bare-handed SD. Almost as bad as suggesting a spear or bow and arrow.

Given the choice, I would take the spear all day long. A .22lr with a 1-2'' barrel is simply not a viable weapon.
 
No one is saying it is.
I surely didn't.

What I am addressing (and you keep avoiding) is your earlier incorrect statement that a knife is better than a .22lr handgun.

Its not, unless you are Rambo.
Advising anyone to use a knife over a gun for Self Defense is ridiculous.

If the assailant calls your bluff, an NAA or Bobcat is as good as useless. A knife on the other hand, be it a halfway decent one, is a real weapon, even in the hands of an untrained person. I would of course rather have a 9mm, but at least the knife is something, whereas the NAA and Bobcat are as good as nothing.

I know what I said, and I stand by it.
 
Given the choice, I would take the spear all day long. A .22lr with a 1-2'' barrel is simply not a viable weapon.

Well, people make bad choices everyday.
Most people aren't bulletproof, knife fighting operators like you.
;)

Advising others to opt for a knife over any firearm for SD is unrealistic and silly.

I will recommend a firearm rather than engaging in a knife fight with an attacker.
 
Well, people make bad choices everyday.
Most people aren't bulletproof, knife fighting operators like you.
;)

Advising others to opt for a knife over any firearm for SD is unrealistic and silly.

I will recommend a firearm rather than engaging in a knife fight with an attacker.

Well, from my perspective recommending a .22lr NAA or Bobcat over a knife is unrealistic and silly. And if you're carrying a .22lr without a good knife for backup you're downright insane IMHO. There's something to be said about the bluff factor we've discussed, but if you don't have anything to back it up besides your fists then you are SOL.
 
Well, from my perspective recommending a .22lr NAA or Bobcat over a knife is unrealistic and silly. And if you're carrying a .22lr without a good knife for backup you're downright insane IMHO. There's something to be said about the bluff factor we've discussed, but if you don't have anything to back it up besides your fists then you are SOL.


Ahh... Changing the narrative I see.
Now you specify NAA and bobcat.

Replace NAA with P22 and your argument falls even flatter.

Fact: There is a higher chance of a bad guy taking away a civilians knife than taking away their gun.
 
On the rare occasion (very rare; can't remember the last time it happened!) I find myself with only a sub-.30 caliber handgun on me, I do also have a knife. Actually, I always do have a knife, though it's far from a fighting knife, being a folder. Though my knife-fighting skills are just above non-existent, I do keep in the back of my head that the knife could come into play in a SD situation. But, I'll try every option first to keep the fight from getting close enough for the knife to "work", and that would mean deploying the gun first.

I do recall reading of an incident a few years back in Tennessee in which a LEO was attacked while using a restaurant restroom. The assailant attempted to disarm him and the cop, forced to tie up one hand in retaining his sidearm, used his patrol knife to carve his attacker off the gun.

We didn't even carry them when I was on the job. More options is certainly better then fewer options. On that, I'd bet we all agree.
 
Ahh... Changing the narrative I see.
Now you specify NAA and bobcat.

Replace NAA with P22 and your argument falls even flatter.

Fact: There is a higher chance of a bad guy taking away a civilians knife than taking away their gun.

The longer the barrel the better your chances but it's still a crapshoot, even with a 20'' barrel. But this discussion is about Bobcats and, tangentially, other similar pocket pistols. A p22 or any other full size .22 is irrelevant to this discussion, as you could carry a real gun for the same size and weight.
 
So I did a little test with a phonebook and my tiny NAA .22lr revolver a couple years ago. I fired each of the following rounds into the phonebook from a distance of 10". Then I found the page number in the book where the bullet stopped, and also recorded the page number where there was still tears in the paper past where the bullet stopped. Finally, I measured expansion of each bullet with calipers. IMO, the 60gr Aguila and the 30gr Aguila, followed closely by Stingers, are the best options, but of course this is from a revolver that doesn't need to worry about cycling. I've been saving phone books (they're hard to come by these days) for a 2nd test where I'll soak the phone book in water for 8 hours prior to testing. But the results from a dry phone book are below, as well as a picture of all the bullets.


View attachment 234564

Bassjam, did you find the Aquila 60 grainers tended to keyhole? I've shot these from a Ruger MKII and most of them keyholed on the paper target.

On to the OP, I would use a non-hollow point 40 grain bullet in .22LR, CCI mini-mags or Small Game Bullet are the best I've found. One wants reliability and the most penetration you can get.
 
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There.. I fixed your quote.
See how silly that sounds?

That's low and childish. Don't put words in peoples' mouths.:thumbdown:

But yea, I would rather have a good knife over a P22, or any .22lr. The knife is a viable defensive weapon, the P22 is NOT. It only sounds silly if you don't know anything about guns.

But again, it's a moot point because the P22 or anything like it are absolutely irrelevant to this discussion!
 
I like knives. I'm a martial artist who teaches knife, a recovering knifemaker and all-round 'knife guy.' Within six feet, *I* would take a knife over a .44 Mag every time. So I'm about as pro-knife as possible, and having survived three knife attacks, know what they look like from the pointy end as well.

That said, for the majority of people, in the majority of cases, ANY gun is better than a knife for defense. It has the ability to extend beyond contract ranges, requires less dexterity and mobility, requires far less training, and simply extends the defensive range too much to not be preferred.

Is a .22 optimal? No, but if a .44 Magnum is a '100' on the scale, and 'no gun' is a '0', then a .22 is about an '85.' The difference between handgun calibers is simply not as profound as some think.


Larry
 
I like knives. I'm a martial artist who teaches knife, a recovering knifemaker and all-round 'knife guy.' Within six feet, *I* would take a knife over a .44 Mag every time. So I'm about as pro-knife as possible, and having survived three knife attacks, know what they look like from the pointy end as well.

That said, for the majority of people, in the majority of cases, ANY gun is better than a knife for defense. It has the ability to extend beyond contract ranges, requires less dexterity and mobility, requires far less training, and simply extends the defensive range too much to not be preferred.

Is a .22 optimal? No, but if a .44 Magnum is a '100' on the scale, and 'no gun' is a '0', then a .22 is about an '85.' The difference between handgun calibers is simply not as profound as some think.


Larry


I'm actually a "knife guy" too.
A razor sharp ZT lives in my pocket, and more in my truck.
Im also a mortal, almost 50, and live in reality.

I just addressed the ridiculous advice grampajack made to "ditch the .22 and carry a knife".

That's about the worst SD advice possible, and Ive seen it before on these forums.
Its crazy.
 
I strongly recommend against rimfires for self-defense, regardless of caliber. I don't like the .380 due to ammo prices, but it would be a much better choice to stake your life on than a .22, both in terms of stopping power and reliability (assuming the pistol is of a reputable brand, of course).
 
I've had a couple not-so-unique, but not common experiences which might make me uniquely qualified to weigh in on the knife vs. 22LR conversation as well.

'Round abouts 2005, I had a 22LR ricochet meander off of a T post and bury itself in my thigh, after traveling 25yrds to the target and back. The solid slug buried itself about 3" into my quad muscle, missing the leg bone to the outside.

I also spent 4yrs as a bouncer, during which in 2004 I was attacked with a knife (multiple times, in fact, but only once in which I took injury). I was slashed in the arms, chest, and back, and stabbed in the high back and shoulder with a 3" folding knife before I got the better of the attacker.

While not a knife, I also had an un-tipped bucking bull stick the tip of his horn into my tricep when I jumped off of the wrong side in 2007. The tip of his horn was about as the tip of your thumb, and went in about 4". In terms of sensation, it reminded me very much of of being stabbed.

I'll also admit, in 1996, I stuck a swiss army knife up to the handle in my right thigh while trying to cut a pop bottle to make a model for a school project.

I was slashed by the due claws on a bull's back feet at a college rodeo in 2005 across the back - one foot landed on my vest and shifted it up, the other foot missed below my kevlar and his claw slashed me from the base of my rib cage near the spine to the top of my pelvis on my side. 7 staples and 68 stitches to close it.

I've carried a 2.5-4" pocket knife for almost 30yrs. I HAVE drawn it in defense, but have never had to stab anyone. I have trained multiple times over the years in bladed weapon combat, both as hand to hand combat training as well as traditional martial arts training. I'll say, with confidence these two truths: 1) I'm considerably higher skilled and higher trained than the average citizen in bladed weapon combat, 2) I'm really not very good at bladed weapon combat.

When the little 22LR bullet hit me, after traveling ~50yrds, it immediately felt like I was hit in the leg with a baseball bat by a child (hard and painful, but not like it would break my leg), followed by an immediate deep burning pain. I immediately knew I'd been shot, and it was painful. It wasn't so painful I lost consciousness, but I didn't feel comfortable driving to town alone for that risk. Digging the bullet out at the hospital was quite painful as well.

When I was stabbed by the bull's horn, I felt no pain - period. Not while his horn was stuck in my arm (swinging with my hand stuck in my rope), not after I came off and ran from the arena, and not as I drove to the hospital. When I was stepped on and cut my back, I felt the weight of being stepped on, but I didn't know I'd been cut until I walked out of the arena and the other riders pointed out the blood soaking down my back.

When I stabbed myself with the pocket knife for my school project, the ONLY thing I felt was immediate regret, knowing my dad was going to take away my knives and guns. I remember pain pulling it out, but I did stitch it closed myself to avoid getting in trouble, even using a bit of silicone tubing for a drain (which we had on the ranch for lancing abscesses in cattle). My parents never found out.

When I was stabbed behind the bar, I remember pain when he slashed my forearm, but I remember knowing that would hurt as soon as I saw the knife - as I intended to use my forearms defensively to close distance. I knew he stabbed me in the shoulder as I took him to the ground, as I felt the hit like a punch. I had absolutely NO IDEA he had stabbed me in the back until the police officer started pressing on it to stop the bleeding after the fact. It was painful when the officer was pressing bar towels against it, but it wasn't a terrible pain.

After these experiences, I'll continue to carry a knife every day, but I'd much much rather be stabbed again before I were shot again, even by a lowly 22LR, and equally, I'd rank a 22LR pistol HIGHLY more effective than a knife - especially considering the range of the weapon. That ricochet inflicted more pain on me after traveling 50yrds, including a bounce, than any of the extreme cuts and stabs I had.

So based on first hand, personal experience on the receiving end of both a 22LR and a knife, I'll rank a 22LR as MUCH more effective than a knife at stopping a fight. Reminding - you can read my post above for my opinion on LACK of stopping power and killing power of the 22LR - so that may tell you how little faith I have in a knife as a fight stopper.
 
I'm acquainted with an ex-SF guy who had a few knife entanglements back in the day, and has some significant health issues still resulting from one of those. He carries a sizable folder which can take a lot of abuse and holds a great edge. But push comes to shove, he seems to prefer his Ruger MkIII over the knife for SD. Hasn't had to resort to either in recent years so it's a bit theoretical. But I get the sense the knife would come out if someone got really close and it came to grappling, and anything further out than that he'd answer with .22lr if polite, then harsh language proved ineffective. So... both, I guess, in that case. But he's a guy I'd rather not tangle with even unarmed, so a special case.

I think of my belt knife as my last ditch, all else has failed sort of tool. Knife wounds just aren't reliably quick-acting most of the time. By the time a guy's body realised it had been stabbed a bunch of times he may well have done as much or more damage to mine, so I tend towards trusting my running and talking abilities before resorting to anything weapon-like. And both have serve me successfully on a few occasions. My kid's martial arts instructor feels similarly. Watched him talk a big crazy guy down last year at the dojo, someone who came belligerently looking for his kid and was adopting very obvious hostile postures, clearly looking for a fight and perhaps capable of doing damage. The instructor is a 7th dan black belt and at times frighteningly competent, more strength than I generally see outside Olympic gymnasts and such. But he used soft words and body language to keep the guy under control, to manoeuvre him out the door, and to hold his attention there until police came and cuffed the big guy who then went into a hospital for a few months and is now on meds. The instructor is very clear with his students; violence is ALWAYS the last choice, but they are to use their awareness and good judgment in deciding when and how much violence is needed should things take a bad turn. Working around knives and guns is a significant part of the training once sufficiently advanced. One of the reasons my kid is still with this dojo is that attitude, as it echoes my own experience in finding that of all defensive tools, sensible words and fast feet tend to win the day.
 




I had a Beretta 21A in the 1980's and cannot recall a single misfire with the Stingers. They should be traveling faster out of the Beretta than the .22 WMR coming out of the 1 inch Pug barrel. I could shoot the 21A with about the same split times as a USPSA gun. It was 50 foot head shot accurate. I could dump all rounds in the head and neck area at 4 yards in about two seconds. I carry better stuff now, but I wasn't going to surrender if that was all I had on me back then. I would take it over a knife, not that I can't carry both.
 
If I had to use a .22 for self defense (and no, I'm not a trained Mossad operative), it would be my Beretta Model 70S. Totally reliable, accurate, great single action trigger, and easy to acquire sights.

That is just dead sexy...I had a blued one many years ago, and have been 'casually' hunting for another since. I've never seen a hard chromed (or is it stainless) version, and that one looks brand new.

Larry
 
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