Self defense .22rimfires?

[Jim Watson]

Thread on TFL recommends CCI MiniMag HP. Says the HP does not expand and penetrates more than RN.
I don't know why he wasted time and gelatin on Colibri instead of rounding up some Velocitor.

 

[1MoreFord]

I carried a NAA .22LR revolver in my right front pocket for years until recently. Dayamed PC company I now work for! CCI Stingers or Mini-Mags are my preference.

 

[481]

While I will probably get roasted for admitting this, I've carried and will continue carrying, a Beretta 21. It's not my main EDC, but it occasionally finds its way into my pocket. It sits well in the hand, points great, and my 21 runs well with mini-mags. I agree it's not the hammer of the gods, but 8 .22 zipping along at 950 ft per second would make a muggers day problematic. I also carried a spare 7 round mag.

As long as one is aware of the limitations of the gun being carried, I think that you're doing fine.

It's the folks that haven't thought it through as thoroughly as you have that I worry about.

No roasting for you.

 

[DT Guy]

I think it's important to remember that if a .44 magnum equals '100', and no gun equals '0', then a .22 is about an '85'; in other words, ANY gun is far closer to optimal than it is to no gun at all.

Larry

 

[22-rimfire]

I think it's important to remember that if a .44 magnum equals '100', and no gun equals '0', then a .22 is about an '85'; in other words, ANY gun is far closer to optimal than it is to no gun at all.

I think this is a good point.

 

[22250Rem]

Is there any serious S/D ammo available or in planning for the lowly rimfire

If I were planning on one of my .22 cal. pistols for SD use I'd go with one my two convertible revolvers that have the option of using 22lr or 22 mag... So that I could use 22 magnums. The 22 mag. chronographs over 300 fps faster from a 4.5" barrel than 22lr . I've got an old H&R 676 convertible and a Ruger Single Six convertible and I'd choose the Ruger ; but as Varminterror suggested a 380 would be a huge step up. If forced to rely solely on a 22lr SD gun I would just carry the ammo that my gun seems to prefer and has proven to me to be sufficiently reliable. To my knowledge there really is no good 22lr ammo that I would deem worthy for SD, ( but I would still hate to get shot with any of it).

 

[22-rimfire]

The 380 ACP (baby 9) is generally the least powerful SD caliber I recommend without qualifications. I don't expect to see any 22LR produced for the SD market. If that is what you mean by "worthy of SD", then I agree with you. But if "worthy" constitutes reliability, the CCI HV stuff tends to be exceptionally reliable in terms of ignition, reasonable accuracy, and functionality in semi-auto handguns. But one needs to test their own particular handgun with their chosen ammunition if using for SD purposes. As I mentioned above, I do carry a 22 from time to time for SD; you just need to understand some of its limitations.

 

[bassjam]

If I were planning on one of my .22 cal. pistols for SD use I'd go with one my two convertible revolvers that have the option of using 22lr or 22 mag... So that I could use 22 magnums. The 22 mag. chronographs over 300 fps faster from a 4.5" barrel than 22lr . I've got an old H&R 676 convertible and a Ruger Single Six convertible and I'd choose the Ruger ; but as Varminterror suggested a 380 would be a huge step up. If forced to rely solely on a 22lr SD gun I would just carry the ammo that my gun seems to prefer and has proven to me to be sufficiently reliable. To my knowledge there really is no good 22lr ammo that I would deem worthy for SD, ( but I would still hate to get shot with any of it).

Really short barrels are a different story. Before I bought my little NAA revolver I put together this graph using data from "ballistics by the inch". I wanted to see if there was a point where the .22 mag lost it's velocity advantage. Seems to be about 2". So I opted for the .22 lr.

 

[Zendude]

The Aguila high velocity 40 grain plated bullet ammo is very reliable in my 22 semiautos.

 

[grampajack]

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but ditch the .22 and get a good knife. Even .22 magnum is suspect from a tiny little barrel, and .22 long rifle is a downright joke in my not so humble opinion. And that's not even saying anything about the reliability of rimfire, which is coming from two different directions in your case (one from the unreliable feeding and another regarding the unreliability of rimfire primer ignition).

Or better yet get a Keltec P32 and load it with full metal jacket or solid copper. At least then you have reliable feeding and primer ignition, plus there's enough penetration to make it to the vitals. My guess is it's lighter and more compact than the bobcat, and if not then it doesn't lose out by much. You can put a clipdraw on it and conceal it inside the waistband of a pair of gym shorts.

 

[bassjam]

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but ditch the .22 and get a good knife. Even .22 magnum is suspect from a tiny little barrel, and .22 long rifle is a downright joke in my not so humble opinion. And that's not even saying anything about the reliability of rimfire, which is coming from two different directions in your case (one from the unreliable feeding and another regarding the unreliability of rimfire primer ignition).

Or better yet get a Keltec P32 and load it with full metal jacket or solid copper. At least then you have reliable feeding and primer ignition, plus there's enough penetration to make it to the vitals. My guess is it's lighter and more compact than the bobcat, and if not then it doesn't lose out by much. You can put a clipdraw on it and conceal it inside the waistband of a pair of gym shorts.

I've (knock on wood) never had a FTF from Aguila or CCI ammunition. Never. And while I wouldn't recommend anyone give up their .380, 9mm, or larger for a .22, the data shows that a .22 lr is still a very deadly round. Much more so than a knife!!!

I recommend you read the information and data collected here and look a the stats on .22's compared to the centerfire rounds.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

I will give you that feeding is suspect with a .22 autoloader. But I'd take a .22 lr revolver any day over a knife!

 

[kBob]

Everytime I see this ".22 for SD" I have the same though......"beats nothing."

I used to carry a Beretta M21A all the time. I replaced it with a P32 . Still would carry the M21A if I did not have the P32.

What it always causes me to think is This question is not about Self Defense, but Concealed carry or even just "out of a pistol"

See I have this silly notion that SD also means Home Protection. If I never intend to carry outside the home then shoot I reckon a .22 LR out of a decent semi auto rifle would be just fine for most folks for a Home Protection gun.

Many times in my lfe like during moves and such I have been content knowing that under the edge of the bed along with my flashlight was a .22LR semi auto rifle. Whether it was a Savage 6 series, Marlin 60, Nylon 66 or even something with no 6's in it like a 10/22 I was seldom worried that ten or so quick shots of super sonic 36 to 40 grain bullets would take care of whatever problem was likely to appear I my bedroom doorway. I like my .45's and my 9's and my .357's and .44's and well all things that can be held and shot with some degree of accuracy in one hand, but I knew the .22 Semi auto rifle would serve.

Fact is for most folks that have never been shot at and missed, who don't think much about such, and who don't train very often they are much better off defending the home with some sort of long gun anyway......even a .22.

A single hit with a .22 is worth more a lot of misses with center fires. of course that in itself is an issue when folks want to carry a .22 PISTOL for concealed or even open carry. Most are really asking about carrying an itty-bitty gun. Hitting with an itty-bitty gun is harder than hitting with a bigger gun. What that one hit will do if you only get one becomes more important. You have to balance accuracy with power and only the individual can decide what makes them comfortable. My wife carried a Beretta M21A for a bit as well. I could draw mine and fire first shot DA and two SA shots on an index card at 7 meters pretty darned quick. She could do the same......on a large paper shopping bag. So we are talking about the difference between three fast head shots and three possibly marginal torso shots. For her, despite more training than most folks male or female ever get, NO the .22LR was not a good "SD" round in that small gun. For me......

There is no magic bullet. Only you can decide if the .22 is a good "SD" round for you and your carry piece.

-kBob

 

[grampajack]

I've (knock on wood) never had a FTF from Aguila or CCI ammunition. Never. And while I wouldn't recommend anyone give up their .380, 9mm, or larger for a .22, the data shows that a .22 lr is still a very deadly round. Much more so than a knife!!!

I recommend you read the information and data collected here and look a the stats on .22's compared to the centerfire rounds.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

I will give you that feeding is suspect with a .22 autoloader. But I'd take a .22 lr revolver any day over a knife!

There are lies, damnable lies, and then there are statistics. According to those numbers a .32 is almost twice as likely to get a one shot incapacitation than a .40 S&W.

I'm not saying that .22s can't kill people. There was a pawn shop employee down the road from me who was killed by a negligent discharge. It got him in the heart and he was DOA. But that was from a 20'' barrel.

On the other side of that, there was a carjacker who took five rounds square in the chest from a .22 lr pistol with a 3-4'' barrel. Not one of the rounds penetrated deep enough to get to his heart or lungs. That should never happen. He then beat the car owner nearly to death, drove the stolen car out of state, and showed up in an ER hours later just because he was in pain. It's no exaggeration in this case to say that shooting him with the .22 served only to royally piss him off, and the car owner accomplished nothing but to get himself a beating he otherwise would not have received.

From a two inch barrel there's just not enough velocity to get through the sternum and penetrate to the CNS reliably. The bullet is also highly likely to be deflected or stopped entirely by bone. Even if you shoot someone directly in the head there are no guarantees. If the bullet is coming in at an angle it's likely to glance off.

It's your party, but I can't comprehend it. I don't think anyone would disagree that a P32 with a clipdraw is more concealable than a Bobcat.

 

[Kendal Black]

In many cases hot weather clothingmakes even NM bJ frame Chiefbtoo heavy and large.

I'm going to take a different tack here. Other people have already shared about which .22 ammo they find least unreliable and the ballistics you can expect.

Pleated-front shorts do a good job of hiding bulky things in the pockets. Cargo pocket shorts do too. Take a look at these options before deciding that a J frame is too big for pocket holster carry. Add a simple and cheap web belt to keep your pants up and you're good to go.

 

[bassjam]

There are lies, damnable lies, and then there are statistics. According to those numbers a .32 is almost twice as likely to get a one shot incapacitation than a .40 S&W.

I'm not saying that .22s can't kill people. There was a pawn shop employee down the road from me who was killed by a negligent discharge. It got him in the heart and he was DOA. But that was from a 20'' barrel.

On the other side of that, there was a carjacker who took five rounds square in the chest from a .22 lr pistol with a 3-4'' barrel. Not one of the rounds penetrated deep enough to get to his heart or lungs. That should never happen. He then beat the car owner nearly to death, drove the stolen car out of state, and showed up in an ER hours later just because he was in pain. It's no exaggeration in this case to say that shooting him with the .22 served only to royally piss him off, and the car owner accomplished nothing but to get himself a beating he otherwise would not have received.

From a two inch barrel there's just not enough velocity to get through the sternum and penetrate to the CNS reliably. The bullet is also highly likely to be deflected or stopped entirely by bone. Even if you shoot someone directly in the head there are no guarantees. If the bullet is coming in at an angle it's likely to glance off.

It's your party, but I can't comprehend it. I don't think anyone would disagree that a P32 with a clipdraw is more concealable than a Bobcat.

I clearly said I'm not favoring a .22 over a .380. I'm just saying a .22 is still way better than a knife.

And the author noted that the small sample size negated the meaning of the .32 ACP.

 

[grampajack]

I clearly said I'm not favoring a .22 over a .380. I'm just saying a .22 is still way better than a knife.

And the author noted that the small sample size negated the meaning of the .32 ACP.

If you had a 2'' .22lr and I had a knife (and I was really determined or high) you would lose 99 times out of a hundred and I would probably walk away with minor injuries. Same goes for a baseball bat, tire iron, etc., and maybe even just my bare fists.

Your best chance of stopping the threat is scaring them off with it, which is a valid argument don't get me wrong. The fear of being shot is a strong motivation to run for most people. But you do get that occasional high or downright crazy person who doesn't mind getting shot. A 2'' .22lr is a bluff, and you just hope no one ever calls it. Your chances of using it to actually incapacitate someone during a real world fight are very slim at best.

 

[bassjam]

If you had a 2'' .22lr and I had a knife (and I was really determined or high) you would lose 99 times out of a hundred and I would probably walk away with minor injuries. Same goes for a baseball bat, tire iron, etc., and maybe even just my bare fists.

Your best chance of stopping the threat is scaring them off with it, which is a valid argument don't get me wrong. The fear of being shot is a strong motivation to run for most people. But you do get that occasional high or downright crazy person who doesn't mind getting shot. A 2'' .22lr is a bluff, and you just hope no one ever calls it. Your chances of using it to actually incapacitate someone during a real world fight are very slim at best.

You already proved in your your hollow point vs jacketed thread that you tend to ignore facts. I'm not sure why I expected anything different from you here.

 

[grampajack]

You already proved in your your hollow point vs jacketed thread that you tend to ignore facts. I'm not sure why I expected anything different from you here.

Your chances of surviving a close in knife attack (or blunt force weapon) are questionable anyways, regardless of what caliber your pistol is. If you think otherwise then you don't know the facts, or you're a legit bad arse with a handgun, or more likely you just think you're a bad arse.

But you greatly increase your chances of survival if your weapon is capable of reaching vitals, and is accurate enough to keep the attacker from getting inside the 21 ft bubble to begin with. The Bobcat fails on both accounts.

I'm sorry, but a 2'' 22lr is not a legitimate defensive weapon. That may not be what you want to hear, but it's the honest truth.

 

[a_canadian]

But grandpa, you're seriously suggesting that folks carry a knife for SD? This seems unwise. Pulling a knife on an attacker is very likely an escalation which will result in that knife being used on you. Unless... you're a legit bad arse with a knife, Crocodile Dundee level x1,000. Most perps will run away when faced with a gun being pointed in their general direction coupled to a loudly issued "F**K OFF I'M GOING TO SHOOT YOU!" A small percentage may be bad arse enough to examine the firearm and second-guess the potential lethality of said weapon. A witheringly insignificant percentage are psycho enough to continue rushing you while being ventilated, with any calibre. So yes, for the extremely rare cases, a .45" would seem the only choice. For most situations - considering that most of us will never have a violent confrontation involving weapons anyway - any old gun seems likely to be sufficient.

 

[grampajack]

But grandpa, you're seriously suggesting that folks carry a knife for SD? This seems unwise. Pulling a knife on an attacker is very likely an escalation which will result in that knife being used on you. Unless... you're a legit bad arse with a knife, Crocodile Dundee level x1,000. Most perps will run away when faced with a gun being pointed in their general direction coupled to a loudly issued "F**K OFF I'M GOING TO SHOOT YOU!" A small percentage may be bad arse enough to examine the firearm and second-guess the potential lethality of said weapon. A witheringly insignificant percentage are psycho enough to continue rushing you while being ventilated, with any calibre. So yes, for the extremely rare cases, a .45" would seem the only choice. For most situations - considering that most of us will never have a violent confrontation involving weapons anyway - any old gun seems likely to be sufficient.

Like I said, it's a bluff you better hope no one calls. A knife is far from a bluff, even in untrained hands. Even highly experienced knife fighting instructors will tell you it's very difficult if not impossible to take a knife away from someone. There's a reason cops are so afraid of knives, as they darn well should be. Underestimating the lethality of a knife and overestimating the lethality of a gun are probably the two quickest ways to get yourself killed.

So yea, I would take a knife over the Bobcat all day long. It might not have the same intimidation factor (although that's arguable), but it's no bluff. At the very least I would carry a knife as backup with it, and if I could only carry one the knife would win out every time.

What I fail to understand though is why the Bobcat over a .32 ACP. The .32 is just as light and concealable, and it has the juice to make it to vitals with FMJ ammo.

 

[a_canadian]

Sure, but who doesn't carry a knife anyway? Those in the UK I suppose, and California... but otherwise sensible folks carry knives. So it's not really an either/or question.

 

[grampajack]

Sure, but who doesn't carry a knife anyway? Those in the UK I suppose, and California... but otherwise sensible folks carry knives. So it's not really an either/or question.

I don't know anyone who carries a knife suitable for fighting with. Most people I know carry multitools, pen knives, your grampa's lockback knife, etc.

 

[Mayvik]

What .22lr cartridge did the Mossad deploy in their Beretta Model 70s, I wonder?

Unless you define SD as a couple rounds behind the ear, why does it matter?

Minimags seem to be most reliable to me. You should really go up to 22 Mag unless extremely blast sensitive. There are much better short barrel loads.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Graphic video of SC Trooper Mark Coates being shot thru the arm hole of his protective vest by an attacker armed with a .22 mini revolver. The bullet passed through a major vessel and he was quickly incapacitated. He was shot after he shot his attacker five times with a .357 magnum revolver. See -
(advance to the 2:30 minute mark of the video) (I tried not to embed the video but my URL link keeps being automatically changed.)

What you hit his more important than what you hit with.

From a two inch barrel there's just not enough velocity to get through the sternum and penetrate to the CNS reliably. The bullet is also highly likely to be deflected or stopped entirely by bone.

The sternum poses little resistance to thoracic penetration by a .22 LR bullet fired from a 2" bbl. Neither does a rib bone. All round nose lead bullets, not just .22 LRN, are more susceptible to being deflected by bone when it strikes at an angle than a jacked bullet because the softer lead will deform to the contour of the bone

 

[grampajack]

Unless you define SD as a couple rounds behind the ear, why does it matter?

Minimags seem to be most reliable to me. You should really go up to 22 Mag unless extremely blast sensitive. There are much better short barrel loads.

Absolutely.

Graphic video of SC Trooper Mark Coates being shot thru the arm hole of his protective vest by an attacker armed with a .22 mini revolver. The bullet passed through a major vessel and he was quickly incapacitated. He was shot after he shot his attacker five times with a .357 magnum revolver. See -
(advance to the 2:30 minute mark of the video) (I tried not to embed the video but my URL link keeps being automatically changed.)

What you hit his more important than what you hit with.

The sternum poses little resistance to thoracic penetration by a .22 LR bullet fired from a 2" bbl. Neither does a rib bone. All round nose lead bullets, not just .22 LRN, are more susceptible to being deflected by bone when it strikes at an angle than a jacked bullet because the softer lead will deform to the contour of the bone

That is a fluke that is not going to happen with any regularity whatsoever. The bad guy won the lottery with that shot, nothing more. You can't use someone's dumb luck as an argument that round is suited to personal defense.

It's not a matter of the bullet being lead or round nose, it's a matter of it being light and slow, a bad combination if you're trying to get to vitals.