Recoil question

Balrog worte:
I am leery of using 223 Rem out to 150 yards deer hunting.

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First, is the eye problem treatable?

Second, where are you located and what size deer are we talking about?

Third, even if the deer are small, with a 223 (regardless of projectile weight) reaching out to 150 yards for a clean kill is going to depend lot on shot placement. Are physically and visually up to making 150 yard precision shots?

The recoil of the 243 falls about midway between the 223 and the 308. It's a good choice for recoil sensitive shooters

hdwhit said:

Third, even if the deer are small, with a 223 (regardless of projectile weight) reaching out to 150 yards for a clean kill is going to depend lot on shot placement. Are physically and visually up to making 150 yard precision shots?

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?? He expressed reluctance at using a .223, perhaps for precisely that reason.

Balrog said:

Where would 243 Winchester lie recoil wise between those two from a bolt action?

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I have a "varmint "rifle in 243. With a heavy barrel, and a substantial scope, I can watch the bullet hit, in the scope. The weight of the rifle dampens recoil quite a bit. There are low recoil ammo options out there. The Savage rifles have a "gummy bear" recoil pads and they are pretty nice. The 243 is a big advantage for deer over the 223.

From a rifle weighing about 7 1/2 lbs you'll get 16-18 ft lbs of recoil from a 308. A 30-06 can vary between 18-22 ft lbs. A 223 is in the 5 ft lb range and a 243 is about 11ish ft lbs. It varies somewhat depending on the exact load. If deer size game is all you ever plan to hunt a 243 is near ideal and would be borderline for game up to elk. A 223 would work for deer only, but while I'd use one, it wouldn't be my 1st choice.

Right now the 6.5 Creedmoor and to a lesser degree the 260 are pretty hot selling cartridges. With 130-140 gr ammo either will do anything a 270 will do with 1/3 less recoil. About 12 ft lbs. That is where you get the most performance for the least recoil and something I'd consider. With the right rifle and hand loads the 260 will do anything the 6.5 creedmoor does. But there are a LOT more options for factory loads and rifles in 6.5 that will handle the heavier bullets.

I hunt deer with both. Both are up to the task at 150 yards, if you are. I don't like recoil, either. I just prefer to forgo it if its not necessary, since what I MOSTLY hunt (deer and hogs) really aren't that hard to kill, in my opinion. Have you ever thought about getting an autoloader in 243 or 308? Not necessarily an AR, but maybe an AR? Of course, with an AR there are more options to customize to you.

For not much money, you can have a recoil reducer installed in the butt of your 06 or 308 which will tame it down to about the recoil of a 243 maybe less depending on your load..

I have a 375 H&H that near killed me every time I shot it, till I had a recoil reducer installed.. Tamed that puppy down significantly... to like maybe a 7mm Mag.
I also just put one in my 45-70 but haven't got around to shooting it yet, so can't attest to its effectiveness with that rifle..

You could add a muzzle brake or suppressor to the .308 Win. A well-designed brake will make a big difference to felt recoil and is a lot cheaper than buying a new rifle. A suppressor will also reduce felt recoil but not as much as a muzzle brake, although the suppressor adds more mass.

I have a .243 Weatherby Vanguard. The recoil seems almost non-existent, but I gave up a 12 gauge slug gun so most anything would be a vast improvement.

I had a .45-70 that I shot with nearly .458 level hand loads. Had a Pachmyer Decelerator pad and it seemed pretty mild for what it was. Might add a really good pad. Can't hurt (literally).

Balrog said:

The eye problem has been treated. Torn retina treated with laser. Vision will be back to baseline in 2-4 weeks. It runs the risk of recurring on either side. So I want to minimize recoil. Ophthalmologists are non committal on how much impact recoil may have on recurrence. I don't want it to happen again so don't see why I would want to take the chance. Better to shoot a lighter recoiling rifle than go blind in an eye.

I am located in GA. Figure 150 pound deer is about average.

Assuming recovery, I will be able to make shots at 150 yards. I always have been before.

If under 100 yds I am ok with 223 I think. Just not sure 150 yards is good with 223.

So the question is 243 or 223. I already have other rifles in 223.

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The .243 would DEFINITELY suit your purpose! It would be my first choice in your shoes, there are alternatives that would also work. In no order I offer the .243, .260/6.5cm, 6.5 Grendel, .30-30, and 7.62x39. If you handload, all of them would be allowed to shine brighter yet. The .308 can also be downloaded to a feasible low recoil load for deer as well. I do advise that with any of the .308 spawn, a scorching hot ballistic tip at 50 yds or less will splatter on impact and penetration will be questionable depending on shot placement. A .243 with a copper/partition 85 at mv of 3100+fps will kill every 150 lb deer you put in front of it. Good cup and core 100 gr bullets work well too. A .243 with 100 gr bullets will recoil about the same as a .260 with 100 gr bullets.
If you're not dying to get a new rifle, handloading reduced recoil loads and modifying your .308 would be completely feasible. Hornady also offers reduced recoil factory loads iirc. Mercury in the stock, a good brake, and reduced recoil loads could get you where you want to be anyway...

A 243/85gr is a lot less recoil than a 308/150 gr in the same Rem 600 carbine.

The weight of the firearm is important. Heavier is better. Add a good recoil pad.

My little Sako carbine in .243 is seven pounds, ready to hunt. I load with the Sierra 85-grain HPBT. Dunno about current loadings, but Federal was offering that same load. To me, the recoil is trivial compared to a heavier-weight '06.

Granted, it's a blow-up bullet, so I've limited my shots to either neck shots or cross-body heart/lung shots. So far, a couple of dozen bucks, and all bang/whop/plop, no tracking.

To compare recoil between two cartridges: Add the powder charge to the bullet weight and multiply by velocity, for each cartridge. Then divide the results to determine the percentage difference.

.243 from a medium weight rifle should be fine. If your hunting style is stationary, you can always go with a heavier gun also. Another option is to add a muzzle break and or weight to your .308.

I was recently shooting two of my CZ 550s back to back. Varmint in .308 (various loads) and FS in .243 (100 grain). The heavier Varmint generated less felt recoil than the FS and was more pleasant to shoot. Not sure if hunting with a heavier gun is an option for you but weight MATTERS when it comes to recoil.

Before you give up on your 308, I would try a box of Hornady Custom Lite shells and maybe a good recoil pad. I bought a 30-06 for elk hunting and while I can deal with full house loads meant to bring down elk at 300 yards, they are not fun to shoot by any means. Load the mag with Custom Lite and the recoil is far more manageable and good for deer to 200 yards.

If you hand load, you might successfully load the 308 down even further.

Another helpful thing would be one of the top of the line recoil pads. The modern pads are much better than the old-days Pachmyrs. My 700Ti in 7mm08 totals 6.5 pounds. The stock fits, and the pad is such that even hot loads at the bench rest, while noticeable, aren't painful. The 7mm08 is basically a .308 with ten grains lighter bullet.

This would be my answer to the situation. This will give you the same recoil as a 243.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...nition-308-winchester-125-grain-sst-box-of-20

I handload so I would load either that hornady sst bullet to 2500 fps or a nosler 125 ballistic tip. I would also put one of these in the stock

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...mercury-recoil-reducer-standard-7-8-x-4-14-oz

The Hogdon website shows youth loads for the .308 with H4895 and 130g Hornady bullets. My wife has taken several mule deer with that load; it works great and recoil is light. Her Remington model 7 is MOA accurate with it too.

Here's the link http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Youth Loads.pdf

I am a big bonded bullet guy, but the simple soft points perform very well at the reduced velocity. Should be fine out to 200y on whitetail.

Definitely try the factory reduced recoil loads before buying another rifle. They work and you keep the familiarity and confidence of using your existing hunting rifle.

https://www.remington.com/ammunition/centerfire-rifle/managed-recoil

I6turbo said:

I was recently shooting two of my CZ 550s back to back. Varmint in .308 (various loads) and FS in .243 (100 grain). The heavier Varmint generated less felt recoil than the FS and was more pleasant to shoot. Not sure if hunting with a heavier gun is an option for you but weight MATTERS when it comes to recoil.

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Nothing mitigates recoil better than weight. I have a Vanguard in .243, Vanguards are heavy rifles, felt recoil is less than than other .243's I've owned and shot that were lighter. Pachmayr makes a magnum grind to fit recoil pad that really helps.

For many years I was anti .223 for deer. Now I'm not. The few I've shot with 64 grain power points through a 20" barreled AR died just as quick as with any larger cartridge I've shot deer with. Since there is essentially no recoil I think using a .223 contributes greatly to precise bullet placement.

Though I don't use my .223 when I'm specifically hunting deer I wouldn't feel handicapped in the least if I did.

Factory reduced recoil loads may be worth a try! Or if you can make your own, even better. Handloading light 30 cal does work well on deer and make the rifle a lot friendlier in most cases.

Get a really nice squishy recoil pad, not the junk ones. A good one will make a big difference in how much shock the rifle gives you.

How about a nice muzzle brake? APA makes a couple brakes that do a really good job. I have one on a 300 mag and one on a 338 lapua. They work incredibly well. Your rifle will probably end up recoiling less than a 243 and still get to keep your 30 caliber at full power.

Otherwise, another caliber may be the best bet. A 243, especially in a rifle with a bit of weight, will be very mild. AND it will kill the deer very well. Seen lots of 243 kills and it works great.

223 rem with a proper bullet will do the job with less recoil than that too. I would have no problem taking deer at 150 yards with mine.

A chamber adapter would allow you to use your own familiar .308 or 30-06 to shoot the much softer recoiling 7.62x39.
A quick search turned up this outfit, and I'm sure there's others as well. Adapter would be a cheap easy solution.
http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm