Is this time different - is this a tipping point?

Deanimator": Very well-put.
"..lie that you don't need a gun because the police will "protect" you is collapsing..".
It was disappointing to read that the first four officers who arrived at the Florida school took cover for a few minutes.

Having never been in that field, I'm not judging them, and with tight budgets they probably never had any realistic "shoot house" training, if none of them had been on SWAT, or in military special forces etc.
But it is very sobering to imagine how much training most teachers would need, although they would be much better than nothing, and they are already Inside schools.

brewer12345:: True, and I was trying to point out how most of them believe any negative rumors or innuendos, without being aware of the commercial incentives.

Ignition Override said:

Deanimator": Very well-put.
"..lie that you don't need a gun because the police will "protect" you is collapsing..".
It was disappointing to read that the first four officers who arrived at the Florida school took cover for a few minutes.

Having never been in that field, I'm not judging them, and with tight budgets they probably never had any realistic "shoot house" training, if none of them had been on SWAT, or in military special forces etc.
But it is very sobering to imagine how much training most teachers would need, although they would be much better than nothing, and they are already Inside schools.

Click to expand...

Why would teachers need so much training? Regular people who carry with no training requirement (and probably no or minimal training) regularly defend themselves, successfully, from violent crime all around the country all the time. In this case a gym coach literally ran towards the gunfire and used himself to shield the bullets. Tell me, how much training would that man require to be an asset in this scenario with a firearm? What about the principal or assistant principal (woman), I forget which, who was said to confront the shooter at Sandy Hook, losing her life in the process? How much training does she need to have been an asset with a gun vs without?

I propose, zero, or NRA basic handgun only

They would likely need some sort of extended training for legal liability - the school can be sued for every bullet fired, so they are no longer just representing themselves, as a CCW permit holder on the street, but if specifically allowed by the school, the lawyers and insurance companies will be howling for blood. I would expect the insurance industry to raise the rates of any school putting armed non LE staff on the ground, probably raise them up through the roof. Who owns the largest insurance agencies? No, not rhetorical, I don't know - part of Bloomberg or Soros group?
Yes, the lie about police being there to protect you was completely smashed with the four Coward County deputies huddling outside while kids died inside, and did not enter even after the local PD arrived to do the job they wouldn't.

JohnBiltz said:

In two weeks you won't hear about it again.

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I'm not sure that's true this time. This shooting has managed to go "viral" a lot more than prior shootings, and let's be honest here, social media now runs the world. Look at what happened to any historical references to the confederacy as soon as that one racist a-hole killed some people a year or two ago... the issue went viral, and the country lost its mind over things that never really bothered anyone prior to that shooting. This shooting seems to be gaining the same kind of emotional ground at the moment.

I'm not willing to concede any ground on gun rights. We owe nothing to the "other side", because we did nothing wrong. My ownership of firearm was not even tangentially related to a shooting that happened 2,000 miles from my home. That doesn't mean we won't be facing a legal fight on this one, but there is no "compromise" here.

It sure doesn't help that our president seems to act emotionally rather than logically... he's already talking of some gun control.

Warp said:

Why would teachers need so much training? Regular people who carry with no training requirement (and probably no or minimal training) regularly defend themselves, successfully, from violent crime all around the country all the time. In this case a gym coach literally ran towards the gunfire and used himself to shield the bullets. Tell me, how much training would that man require to be an asset in this scenario with a firearm? What about the principal or assistant principal (woman), I forget which, who was said to confront the shooter at Sandy Hook, losing her life in the process? How much training does she need to have been an asset with a gun vs without?

I propose, zero, or NRA basic handgun only

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Agreed.

The hypocrisy shines bright within our own.

armoredman said:

They would likely need some sort of extended training for legal liability - the school can be sued for every bullet fired, so they are no longer just representing themselves, as a CCW permit holder on the street, but if specifically allowed by the school, the lawyers and insurance companies will be howling for blood. I would expect the insurance industry to raise the rates of any school putting armed non LE staff on the ground, probably raise them up through the roof. Who owns the largest insurance agencies? No, not rhetorical, I don't know - part of Bloomberg or Soros group?
Yes, the lie about police being there to protect you was completely smashed with the four Coward County deputies huddling outside while kids died inside, and did not enter even after the local PD arrived to do the job they wouldn't.

Click to expand...

I've posted this before and posted links just yesterday.

CA currently has at least 3 school districts that allow teachers to CC.

Pretty much none of that is true for CA.

If CA can do it, so can other more free states.

So the thread title is about "is it different his time".
Reading so many threads and replies regarding the recent murdering of children has made me realize something.



Those Millennial Snowflake seem to have a "Can do" attitude and it concerns me that maybe too many here have a "Do nothing because it will blow up in our face and double the national dept" attitude and come up with false proclamations to support doing nothing.


It's one thing to bring up hurdles needed to be overcome to get the laws we want but let's not be self defeating.

A member said yesterday or the day before that teachers would 'have to be deputized' as one of the reasons.

It's utter nonesense.

Why are some fabricating falseities to justify not doing anything?


Who's ever resolve is stronger to over come the hurdles will win.

Mind set, skill set, tool set.

They (the kids) have the mind set that nothing will stop them,,,, are working on the skill set to change the tool set of laws.


If this was 1908/1909, those 'snowflakes' ,that many like to dismiss and make fun of, would be the Write Brothers and a lot of people here would be citing Icarus in Greek Mythology as proof of sure failure.

I closely follow European news sources. The idea of arming schoolteachers has made America into a laughingstock internationally.

This is not helping our international credibility.

AlexanderA said:

I closely follow European news sources. The idea of arming schoolteachers has made America into a laughingstock internationally.

This is not helping our international credibility.

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And we should care because...?

Well if the stories about LEOs on site are accurate, having muti people armed in school is the most plausible idea.

We have security in our malls, why not our schools? Do we really value our stuff over our children?

Jackal said:

We have security in our malls, why not our schools? Do we really value our stuff over our children?

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Normally I see a few security people at the mall on the rare occasions I go.

This school had 1.



And, unfortunately, the 1 security personnel at the school was only of equal quality to 1 of the secuity personnel at the mall.... again, usually see a few at the mall.

And even more unfortunate is that the next 3 that showe'd up at the school were of equal quality too.


So if we are using this example, yes, we value our stuff more than our kids.

Warp:
Your points about teachers, and the school's heroic gym coach are excellent.

It must always be a matter of mental preparation for seizing initiative, and fear for the innocent. That's why I can't understand why several people froze, or required leadership in that terrible situation.

Freezing is one of the set of automatic emergency responses built into us. It is thought be related to hiding from predators way back when.

Flight, Fight, Freeze, Fear - are the four we have. Training helps control them and make them useful. Much literature on that.

AlexanderA said:

I closely follow European news sources. The idea of arming schoolteachers has made America into a laughingstock internationally.

This is not helping our international credibility.

Click to expand...

Yeah but you see, the thing about that is, IDGAF

And neither should you.

With the exception of only a couple European countries, the Europeans have zero understanding of the American gun culture.

And having over the years traveled throughout Europe, I can tell you that they mostly laugh at us about everything anyway.

I'm in total agreement with Warp.

We clearly need to worry about what our children grow up believing (we've done a lousy job, collectively speaking, this is apparent now) rather than what Europeans find amusing about us ...

This incident wasn't the tipping Point. It's merely the incident that happened when mass media had finally reached the Tipping Point.

The power the mass media wields and commands on young impressionable minds has reached a tipping point. Organizations like Google, Facebook, YouTube, Wikipedia etc are all extremely left-wing and are beginning to censor everything. We are rapidly heading into a situation where mass media is going to be no more reliable than state-sponsored media because smaller media Outlets are going to be silenced by the big players. If Google, Safari, or Internet Explorer want only one half of the story told, that's the way it's going to be.

An individual that is actually interested in the whole story will always find a way, but hearing the other side of the story is going to become more difficult as time goes on simply because of the way we receive our information.

20 years ago I would have said that the internet was a blessing in regards to getting the truth out about a lot of things, but these days it's becoming more of a tool to hand feed the masses without them knowing it because of a handful of globalist corporations and are extremely left leaning.

brewer12345 said:

And we should care because...?

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Because America is a world power, and what people think about us has a lot to do with how much influence we have the world.

Russia is a tyranny, but for some reason it has better public relations than America does. People in third countries respect Putin, but they don't respect Trump.

It's interesting what the Russians do about "school violence." Based on what happened at Beslan, they just go in and shoot everybody, students and hostage-takers alike. Well, that's one way of solving the problem.

AlexanderA said:

Because America is a world power, and what people think about us has a lot to do with how much influence we have the world.

Russia is a tyranny, but for some reason it has better public relations than America does. People in third countries respect Putin, but they don't respect Trump.

It's interesting what the Russians do about "school violence." Based on what happened at Beslan, they just go in and shoot everybody, students and hostage-takers alike. Well, that's one way of solving the problem.

Click to expand...

Beslan, fortunately, is not in any way similar to any of our school shootings. Not even in the same universe.

AlexanderA said:

Because America is a world power, and what people think about us has a lot to do with how much influence we have the world.
.

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Horse puckey. The only reason the US has outsized influence in the world is due to its very large military and economy.

brewer12345 said:

Horse puckey. The only reason the US has outsized influence in the world is due to its very large military and economy.

Click to expand...

Correct.

Warp said:

Beslan, fortunately, is not in any way similar to any of our school shootings. Not even in the same universe.

Click to expand...

Not yet. Just wait until a Manson-like cult of a dozen people attack a school. And it will happen; the only question is when.

AlexanderA said:

Not yet. Just wait until a Manson-like cult of a dozen people attack a school. And it will happen; the only question is when.

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I doubt it and hope not, but even if so, it would take something way outside of anything that has yet happened in the US to be able to compare our reaction to Russia's at Beslan

AlexanderA said:

I closely follow European news sources. The idea of arming schoolteachers has made America into a laughingstock internationally.

This is not helping our international credibility.

Click to expand...

Wanna bet Norway would have been HAPPY to have an armed teacher on that island, while that murderer went on that killing spree?
Quite frankly, I don't give the rear end of a dead rat what Europe thinks about we handle business - they should tend to their cascading bankruptcies and migrant invasions, and do not presume to tell us what we have to or not have to do.