It is pretty amazing that a procedure that was initially universally panned as inherently dangerous has become so apparently accepted
Negligent discharge-how?
- Thread starter Axis II
- Start date
- Status
Madcap_Magician
Member
That'd definitely be a sphincter-clencher. I sure wouldn't want to be around the guy who inadvertently volunteered to test the minimum arming distance on a 40mm grenade.
OK, but in fairness, think about how many people come to basic training and have to have things like "Using soap" and "Washing your body" and "Utilize a padlock" taught to them repeatedly. They don't even get to advanced lessons like "Don't take out payday or auto loans at 4000% APR," and "Don't marry strippers from the club outside the post gates, they're only in it for your BAH."
Last edited:
Old Dog
Member
To further flog the deceased equine ...
I can confirm that many female officers do initially struggle learning how to lock the slide to the rear without a magazine inserted or even trying to rack the slide all the way back to chamber a round; in early training, I've witnessed them (and to be fair, a lot of male officers with no handgun experience) on the line or in lanes pointing the muzzle to one side or another when racking the slide of an M&P.
I happen to work for an employer whose standard issue pistol is the M&P; at NO time do we teach that the trigger is pulled after clearing the pistol (so it's not cocked? -- it's a striker-fired pistol, if it's unloaded, it's unloaded). I'd be interested in seeing the instructor guide for this academy's pistol training.
Can we go back to the whole "holding the gun sideways" thing? What does that mean? Canting the pistol to one side or the other with the muzzle still pointed downrange (or otherwise in a safe direction)? Never heard the phrase, "hold the gun sideways" in any training before.
I can confirm that many female officers do initially struggle learning how to lock the slide to the rear without a magazine inserted or even trying to rack the slide all the way back to chamber a round; in early training, I've witnessed them (and to be fair, a lot of male officers with no handgun experience) on the line or in lanes pointing the muzzle to one side or another when racking the slide of an M&P.
I happen to work for an employer whose standard issue pistol is the M&P; at NO time do we teach that the trigger is pulled after clearing the pistol (so it's not cocked? -- it's a striker-fired pistol, if it's unloaded, it's unloaded). I'd be interested in seeing the instructor guide for this academy's pistol training.
Holding gun sideways--They teach us either the swipe method for stove pipe or cant the gun to the side and rack the stove pipe out. Me being right handed the gun would be canted sideways with the ejection port facing up and left. I'm not sure what dominant hand she is. Almost like the gang bangers do in the movies.
Pull trigger method--When we complete and exercise and they want us unloaded (they run a hot range till lunch or home) or go to lunch they line everyone up facing down range, draw and come to full presentation, bring it back to your workspace, unload the magazine with retention, rack the round out/some are already empty depending on the drill, instructor comes around (sometimes just says if your empty, lock it up and pull the trigger) they verify no round is in the chamber, say close it and pull the trigger down range. I never understood the point of dry firing the striker fired guns either but I go with what they say. We never had a gun go off doing this but some had rounds in the chamber and they weren't supposed to. The same girl came into her workspace and didn't have it pointed to the sky and i glanced over and it was aimed right at me in a reload with retention drill. I took a couple steps back off the line and got chewed for it. I pulled the instructor to the side and explained and he talked to her. I also didn't agree with everyone line up and have the gun in the workspace either. I was told that's why your wearing your vest range days.
It is very common in Action Pistol competitions
It is to ensure that the chamber is empty...that the person visually verifying that the chamber was "empty" wasn't just seeing what they expected to see. (Yes, I know that some folks are taught to insert their finger into the chamber to verify that it is empty. I've never seen this done beyond introductory training classes)
The practice is a hold over from the days when the 1911 was the default "combat handgun". Extractors would sometimes break, from being allowed to snap over the rims of chambered rounds, and leave rounds in the chamber after the command, "Unload and Show Clear" (USC)
Last edited:
I was really shocked that 3/4 of the class had never fired a gun before. It also didn't help the RO always yelling and cursing at everyone.
Zerodefect
member
I don't see anything dangerous about dry firing an empty gun in a safe direction.
It's part of my clearing drill. Is it clear? Prove it and pull the trigger in a safe direction. IDPA, USPSA, after each shoot.
Only thing i don't like about this mindset is those with very minimal gun handling experience.
Cleaning after a 9hr range day the guys would disassemble and clean and put back together and then pull the trigger. Always made me a nervous freaking wreck because some had a bad habit of putting "empty mags" back in the gun. I was in charge of cleaning and would tell everyone no mags, no ammo, only a gun at the cleaning table. I asked one guy why he had a mag still in his gun and he says its empty. Okay, why do you have a mag in your gun? please take it over there so there are no accidents. If you just cleaned the gun and had it in 3-4 pieces you know its empty so why pull the trigger again? I am now wondering if she didn't accidently do this. She never cleaned with us so i never saw her do that but could be an option. Down range i kind of understand but why pull after cleaning?
Oh, that's how I feel, too. All of my guns get put away verified empty with an ULSC.
I'm just saying that on a whole bunch of things, Glock was able to move the CW in the gun community. They moved the CW on whether non-long-trigger handguns need a manual safety, whether safeties are a "negative" in the eyes of some, whether a gun being "not ready" is a big safety risk, whether a take-down procedure that involves pulling the trigger is a good idea, whether the lever that holds open the slide is called (and used as) a "slide release" or something else, how to rack pistols, etc. Something I agree with, some I don't... but there's no doubt Glock's marketing and Glock-provided-LE-training was able to change the gun culture.
To make sure you put it back together correctly and that it still functions? Do you not dry-fire your guns after you tear them down and put them back together?
Coal Dragger
member
Having not fired a gun before is not a bad thing. Most shooters with no good formal instruction just have bad habits that have to be untrained.
From the sound of it you and your classmates aren’t getting quality instruction though. Just getting crammed through as quickly as possible to meet the requirements of whatever test you have to pass to show proficiency. Pretty typical firearms “training” for most agencies or military units. Get the boxes checked so on paper everybody is “trained”.
Chances are that most of your classmates are completely fine with training to bare minimum standards, and will never venture any further than practicing the week before pistol qualification time.
Good luck out there.
Zerodefect
member
Yep, I load a mag with snap caps and hammer away after cleaning. As long as nobody comes out with purple ammo, I'm good.
It's also why I roll my eyes at shooters that can't press check well. They haven't checked their pistol or dry fired much.
It's also why I roll my eyes at shooters that can't press check well. They haven't checked their pistol or dry fired much.
BlueHeelerFl
Member
I'm pretty sure many if not most new Leo's are not gun people. That's probably the way most dept's want it.
Trunk Monkey
member
You don't recall
rpenmanparker
Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2018
- Messages
- 2,456
She did that get to be standard? I though it was a rare case for the few folks that don’t have enough strength to do it the right way.
There was a poll here a couple of years ago (maybe, unsure on timing) where people were asked whether they used a thumb-forefinger pinch/slingshot method, an overhand/fingertips-to-palm-heel method, or other method of racking a slide. I'm an unapologetic slingshotter... I was in the minority. All the tacticool kids rack overhand.
Turning it completely sideways? No, not standard... but very easy to accidentally/naturally do with the overhand grasp.
Turning it completely sideways? No, not standard... but very easy to accidentally/naturally do with the overhand grasp.
At one of the ranges I go to. A range safety officer was showing some new shooters the bullet hole that went through a post and some other wood down the firing line. Explaining to them that a person who used the overhand method to rack his gun had also turned it side ways and luckily no one was hit by the bullet or flying wood.
rpenmanparker
Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2018
- Messages
- 2,456
With overhand the gun is supposed to be turned sideways to the body but so is the body supposed to be sideways to the downrange direction. Net result is the gun is still pointing downrange.
huntsman
Member
As for tipping I recently had a bit of training and the instructor called it tap, tip and rack to clear malfunction, it felt weird at first but after a few times it was simple and made sense.
rpenmanparker
Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2018
- Messages
- 2,456
That is for a type 2 malfunction when you have brass low that has to be ejected. For type 1 with no brass in the way, it is just tap, rack and determine whether you still need to fire. No tipping needed.
I think it was back in the 80s.
It was taught at every school I've attended since at least the mid-80s*
*The exception was an Ernie Langdon Tactical Pistol class I took when he was still working for Beretta. He taught the overhand slide rack when he moved to SIG
rpenmanparker
Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2018
- Messages
- 2,456
Taught to me too, but only as an exception.
Zerodefect
member
I overhand with thumb and index finger. More clearance to eject.
Stovepipes are so rare, that if it looks like I can't wipe it, I treat it as a double feed. Lock, strip, rack, reload.
Turning the pistol and flipping it is a PITA behind cover. Get the stop watch out, a double feed clearance drill is not slower, unless that stove pipe rolls out really easy.
Often the stove pipe will fall out when the mag is stripped out. In that case skip the rack and just reload. Pretty fast.
I've seen shooters struggle for 10 seconds trying to hold the slide and shake out the case. Doublefeed drill is 4 seconds at the most. It's especially hard if you have to worry about the 180.
Stovepipes are so rare, that if it looks like I can't wipe it, I treat it as a double feed. Lock, strip, rack, reload.
Turning the pistol and flipping it is a PITA behind cover. Get the stop watch out, a double feed clearance drill is not slower, unless that stove pipe rolls out really easy.
Often the stove pipe will fall out when the mag is stripped out. In that case skip the rack and just reload. Pretty fast.
I've seen shooters struggle for 10 seconds trying to hold the slide and shake out the case. Doublefeed drill is 4 seconds at the most. It's especially hard if you have to worry about the 180.
Last edited:
- Status
