Negligent discharge-how?
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MTMilitiaman
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Sounds like she got complacent and went through the motions without actually checking the chamber. Complacency can easily result in negligence, and negligence in an unexpected gun shot. It is important that we remember why we do things as we do them, and not allow ourselves to become lazy or distracted. The goal of removing the magazine and racking the slide is to clear the weapon. But whether it is the parade grounds on present arms, the range at unload and show clear, or your own living room, prudence demands we visually inspect chamber to confirm the process we have undergone to clear the weapon has been successful. A striker fired gun like a Glock or M&P leaves no wiggle room in this regard, esp if the trigger has to be pulled for disassembly. My Glock has made me a safer gun handler specifically because you have to be on constantly on point with your trigger discipline and religious about clearing procedures.
Glad no one was hurt.
Glad no one was hurt.
My M&P will no release unless the trigger is pulled once the take down lever is unlocked.
The revolver girl is a friend I've known for along time. The ND girl is in the academy with me. Not really a friend, just an acquaintance. She came into class last night and was like hey guess what happened? I would have kept that to myself and no told anyone out of embarrassment seeing how we just wrapped up 70hrs of firearms training less than 2 weeks ago. Believe it, don't believe it. No skin off my back.Man, ohihunter, you have a lot of unbelievable and bizarre stories from multiple female friends...
I was just curious how this could have happened and didn't want to be one of the 10 guys grilling her and making fun of her so i asked nicely how she checked it and moved on only to ask on here.
Either poor training (seen lots of that) or no basic understanding of how a semi auto handgun works. I used to live in Champaign Ill. and one of the cadets at their Police Training Institute walked back into the classrom from the firing line and they did not have any range officers checking for cleared weapons. She sat down at a long cleaning bench to break down her Glock and pointed it to her side, pulled the trigger to remove the slide exactly like she was taught and shot the student on her left. Several huge mistakes were made. Poorly trained students were able to walk off of a live firing line without knowing how to actually clear their guns and carry them into a classroom and attempting to take apart a loaded gun without clearing it while pointing their gun at a fellow student while "assuming" it was unloaded.. Really great training program. The most amazing part is this stupid woman then attempted to sue the Police Training Institute for NOT training her sufficiently to prevent this "accident" - she swore that she did exactly how she was trained. You can't make this crap up. The Judge threw the case out. IMO if you are going to issue a handgun that requires pulling the trigger to disassemble ( a truly stupid design IMO) you need to make absolutely sure the students understand exactly how it works and that they understand basic muzzle discipline. Allowing them to walk off of a firing line with a loaded gun was a Really Bad Idea as well. Their program was seriously overhauled after this incident. I personally saw a number of their former students at our range qualifying and their gunhandling was truly terrifying. Just unbelievable. It got so bad that whenever any of them showed up at our range we all packed up out gear left as quickly as possible.
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Madcap_Magician
Member
Sounds like she was given a clearing procedure that she attempted to follow but did not understand the mechanics and rationale behind each step of the procedure. The whole point of a clearing procedure is to verify that the gun is empty. Performing the steps of clearing a gun is useless if you don't actually look to see if the gun is cleared.
Additionally there is no need to pull the trigger to field strip a S&W M&P, so if someone told her to do it that way, they're doing it wrong.
Additionally there is no need to pull the trigger to field strip a S&W M&P, so if someone told her to do it that way, they're doing it wrong.
JTQ
Member
Are you field stripping your M&P like one would a Glock, by pulling the trigger, or are you lowering the sear disconnect?
See at the :30 point.
another one, at about the 1:40 mark
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FL-NC
Member
Swear all you want the gun was empty. The loud noise and accompanying hole in whatever/whoever the bullet hits prove otherwise.
FL-NC
Member
At the FOBS overseas, sometimes troops entering the base are required to clear all weapons on entry, then place their weapon(s) into whatever configuration the base commander deems appropriate. We typically by-passed this station, except for our CSW's mounted on vehicles. I have seen a clearing station that consisted of a sandbag wall, with barrels half filled with sand, and surrounded by more sandbags. Above the barrels were plywood signs with the specific directions and steps with illustrations on how to clear pretty much every weapon in the US mil inventory, so that the soldier could actually perform each step in a controlled, safe environment, and do each step as he/she reads it while looking at pictures. I am ashamed to say that the clearing area had lots of "test fires" occur. Even more disturbing is that sometimes the barrels weren't even hit. Fortunately, nobody AD'd a 40mm grenade launcher into the station, at least not when I was there.
Yup. I still cannot believe how many soldiers are seemingly totally unable to grasp the concept of clearing a weapon and the current practice of placing "clearing barrels" everywhere to compensate for that fact. No one should need to explain this stuff to them after they leave Basic Training.
I've owned mine and carried it for work for almost 10yrs and always have to pull the trigger. I wonder if its because i don't remove the grip pin and push the mag thing down? I push it down when i put the slide back on though but i am 110% sure my gun will not unlock the slide unless the trigger is pulled. It also has a bad habit of the slide charging upon seating a magazine.
Not arguing because IMO you shouldn't have to pull the trigger but a quick google search reveled guys with the same issue as me. It will release but gets hung up and one must pull the trigger.
https://mp-pistol.com/mp-talk/36762-m-p45-field-strip-w-trigger.html
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I see two mechanical possibilities - the round never left the chamber or (less likely) the round stayed stuck to the breechface. If the extractor is broken or has grossly insufficient tension, you could rack the slide back and forth until you wore the rails to dust and the round would stay in the chamber. Same thing if the cartridge brass had the rim ripped off, especially if the bullet was jammed into the lands. Even a cursory glance in the chamber with the slide at full retraction would have revealed this situation. Of course, the "overhand" racking method commonly taught these days makes looking in the chamber a little less automatic than the old-fashioned slingshot method.
If the ejector (not extractor) was broken or if the slide was grossly short-stroked, then the extractor could have held the round on the breech face. It may be possible that, depending on the angle, a stuck-to-face round might not be always be visible from all angles that would allow a look into the chamber itself. Again, an overhand grip is more likely to put part of the hand in the sight line and may "screen" a bullet stuck to the breechface.
If the ejector (not extractor) was broken or if the slide was grossly short-stroked, then the extractor could have held the round on the breech face. It may be possible that, depending on the angle, a stuck-to-face round might not be always be visible from all angles that would allow a look into the chamber itself. Again, an overhand grip is more likely to put part of the hand in the sight line and may "screen" a bullet stuck to the breechface.
JTQ
Member
I'm pretty sure the owners manual tells you to do this.
https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/si...rs-manuals/M&P_Pistol_051517_441300000_WC.pdf
I've owned an M&P for several years. Until a couple of months ago when I read it here, I had no idea that one could circumvent the little lever in the magwell as part of the field-stripping procedure by pulling the trigger.
That said, as someone who shoots USPSA, I habitually clear my pistols (including the M&P) by unloading them, pointing them somewhere safe for a round to go, and pulling the trigger. I've never had any unexpected noises from my M&P, or anything else, during this procedure... but I do look in the chamber every time.
That said, as someone who shoots USPSA, I habitually clear my pistols (including the M&P) by unloading them, pointing them somewhere safe for a round to go, and pulling the trigger. I've never had any unexpected noises from my M&P, or anything else, during this procedure... but I do look in the chamber every time.
1KPerDay
Member
I would personally add "visually confirm an empty chamber" before pulling the trigger in your procedure.
Walt Sherrill
Member
As noted above, about the only explanation is that "She may not have fully cycled the slide and the extractor held the round in place."
If she FULLY racked the slide, and there was no mag in the gun, the ejector should have caught the live round and ejected it -- but if she pulled the slide back part way, several times, the round held against the breech face might never have hit the ejector and would be rechambered when the slide goes forward. As also noted above, "That's why it is important to visually check the chamber. If you didn't see the ejected round drop out of the gun, you can't be sure it's gone!
With most of my handguns -- it's easier with some than others -- I just tilt the gun so that I can eject the round into my hand. by holding the gun so that the ejector port is pointing down and the ejected round drops into the hand racking the slide catches as it comes out. But it always makes good sense to do a visual check, too.
If she FULLY racked the slide, and there was no mag in the gun, the ejector should have caught the live round and ejected it -- but if she pulled the slide back part way, several times, the round held against the breech face might never have hit the ejector and would be rechambered when the slide goes forward. As also noted above, "That's why it is important to visually check the chamber. If you didn't see the ejected round drop out of the gun, you can't be sure it's gone!
With most of my handguns -- it's easier with some than others -- I just tilt the gun so that I can eject the round into my hand. by holding the gun so that the ejector port is pointing down and the ejected round drops into the hand racking the slide catches as it comes out. But it always makes good sense to do a visual check, too.
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Coal Dragger
member
If you aren’t visually confirming, or physically confirming an empty chamber on a magazine fed semiautomatic firearm you’re in for trouble. All the slide racking in the world won’t matter if you have a broken extractor and the round is never pulled out. That’s why you look in the chamber after removing the magazine and running the slide back and locking it. If it’s dark do all those and feel for an empty chamber.
Sounds like some sub par training is going on. Pretty typical for most LEO’s these days.
I’d bet money that when the pistol discharged, the spent casing extracted and ejected. Your classmate didn’t remove the ammunition source prior to running the slide, and didn’t visually or physically confirm an empty chamber.
Wouldn’t be at all surprised if she’s not physically strong enough to positively manipulate the slide to the rear and lock it with the slide stop. This is a problem for a lot of females.... they’re weak.
Sounds like some sub par training is going on. Pretty typical for most LEO’s these days.
I’d bet money that when the pistol discharged, the spent casing extracted and ejected. Your classmate didn’t remove the ammunition source prior to running the slide, and didn’t visually or physically confirm an empty chamber.
Wouldn’t be at all surprised if she’s not physically strong enough to positively manipulate the slide to the rear and lock it with the slide stop. This is a problem for a lot of females.... they’re weak.
WestKentucky
Member
I agree in sentiment but the wording comes off a bit crass. A lot of females have smaller hands and that makes manipulating a fully sized firearm difficult, and if they drop down to compact firearms the springs are heavier giving them a different obstacle to overcome. They absolutely can overcome the obstacles, they just need to learn proper technique. Pulling on the slide is wrong, and even though that’s what we SAY we do, in reality a lot of folks hold the slide and push the frame forward which is easier to do. Sounds insignificantly similar, but it’s not. Pulling the slide typically involves a lot of thumb and forefinger strength and effort, holding the slide like holding a book by its spine is nowhere near as difficult. Holding the slide and pushing the frame forward is much easier, and is proper technique for anyone with even remote trouble manipulating a slide.
Decent handgun shooting requires decent hand strength. Anyone struggling to run a slide because of strength limitations (as opposed to the innate fear of "forcing things" and breaking them - something that is common among new shooters and particularly women) would benefit as a shooter from doing some hand-strengthening exercises. Hand strength doesn't depend on adding a lot of muscle mass, and women of ordinary-for-women strength can have quite a lot of gripping strength. I recall my own mother being able to pinch hard enough that I think she could have riveted metal without a tool! At least that's how it felt when I was 7 years old and squirming in the church pew...
Zerodefect
member
Distracted, or poor training. We chamber check a million times in just a weekend of training, like we're trying to be in Jon Wick 3 or something.
toivo
Member
That's it in a nutshell. If nothing came out, you assume it's still in there. Then you check to see.
Zerodefect
member
Overhand racking is a good solution. The fingers and thumb pushing rearwards in compression, not tension. Like a knife cutting in, not just pulling across. It offers more grip on a wet slide as well.
You can still push the grip forward, just watch out for students doing that too literally and breaking the 180.
danez71
Member
Mine does.... just like the manual says.
Riomouse911
Member
I add a visual and a PHYSICAL inspection component; stick your little finger into the chamber with the slide open to feel if something is inside. If nothing else it’s one more step to ensure a clear chamber and a “safer” firearm condition. (Firearms are always treated as loaded, pointed in a safe direction, etc. right?)
I’ll bet dollars to donuts she racked the slide THEN removed the magazine. Almost every ND I have seen or investigated involved this action, even when the shooter swore they dropped the mag first. We’re all human, and even the best of us has a human moment once in a while (Though most of us, myself included, hate to admit it!)
There’s a reason the round was in the chamber, and 99.99% of the time it’s because we put it there whether we recall doing it or not.
Stay safe!
Coal Dragger
member
Yeah I was being blunt, and will continue to be blunt.
If a person lacks the grip strength and hand size, or both, to manipulate a duty sidearm then they have no business being issued that weapon. If carrying that weapon is a major part of their job description they have no business performing that job. Sorry PC, EEO, and SJW types, but we're not all created equal. Firearms manufacturers have done a lot to try to accommodate a wide range of users for service pistols, and have largely succeeded, but there are still some out there that lack the physical attributes needed to operate those side arms safely and effectively.
If the subject of this thread is not strong enough to operate her duty sidearm but her hands are large enough to reach the controls she needs to get her butt in the gym. Specifically she needs to do squats, deadlifts, bench press, over head press, and chin ups. Three times a week, 3 sets of 5 reps on each, trained by a qualified coach, as heavy as she can and still complete the work sets. It won't take long for every aspect of her physical performance to improve, including but not limited to grip strength. She'll grip the gun better, control it better, and do almost everything better because she'll be a lot stronger.
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