40 s&w powder?
- Thread starter Axis II
- Start date
- Status
ray15
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2017
- Messages
- 946
You don't mention what bullets you intend to use, but I've had good luck with both HP38 and BE86 in 40SW using 155gr. projectiles. I'm sure either will work well with 165s or 180s too - both Hodgdon and Alliant have comprehensive load data for these powders in 40. Below is my data from two loads, a target and a full-power defensive load.
The target load uses the Berry's 155gr. FP plated bullet with HP38. I tested 5.3-5.7gr. of HP38 with CCI500 primer and 1.125" OAL., in a XD Mod.2 4". There may be better powders for 40 depending on bullet choice, but in general I find any powder in this burn rate range works well for target loads. HP38 can't quite make full power due to its burn rate being a little fast, but it's great for 80-90%. I use the 5.5gr. load below as a standard 40 target load.
HP38 B155FP 155BFP 5.3gr
Number of Shots 8
Extreme Spread 57
Average 944
Standard Deviation 18
40SW HP38 155BFP 5.4gr
Number of Shots 7
Extreme Spread 32
Average 955
Standard Deviation 10
40SW HP38 155BFP 5.5gr
Number of Shots 7
Extreme Spread 26
Average 970
Standard Deviation 10
40SW HP38 155BFP 5.6gr
Number of Shots 10
Extreme Spread 44
Average 1000
Standard Deviation 14
40SW HP38 155BFP 5.7gr
Number of Shots 6
Extreme Spread 71
Average 998
Standard Deviation 22
BE86 is good for full-power loads, having a slower burn rate that's very useful in this application This is my ladder with the 155gr. Speer Gold Dot HP. 7.3-7.7gr. of BE86 was tested using CCI500 primers and an OAL of 1.125". At 1189fps max it's a little faster than most factory 155gr. 40 loads. I use the 7.7gr. max load as my standard 40 defensive-style load. With it I am well-armed against water jugs large and small.
40SW BE86 155GD 7.3gr
Number of Shots 8
Extreme Spread 39
Average 1153
Standard Deviation 12
40SW BE86 155GD 7.4gr
Number of Shots 10
Extreme Spread 51
Average 1155
Standard Deviation 13
40SW BE86 155GD 7.5gr
Number of Shots 9
Extreme Spread 36
Average 1159
Standard Deviation 11
40SW BE86 155GD 7.6gr
Number of Shots 10
Extreme Spread 59
Average 1167
Standard Deviation 14
40SW BE86 155GD 7.7gr
Number of Shots 9
Extreme Spread 32
Average 1189
Standard Deviation 9
The target load uses the Berry's 155gr. FP plated bullet with HP38. I tested 5.3-5.7gr. of HP38 with CCI500 primer and 1.125" OAL., in a XD Mod.2 4". There may be better powders for 40 depending on bullet choice, but in general I find any powder in this burn rate range works well for target loads. HP38 can't quite make full power due to its burn rate being a little fast, but it's great for 80-90%. I use the 5.5gr. load below as a standard 40 target load.
HP38 B155FP 155BFP 5.3gr
Number of Shots 8
Extreme Spread 57
Average 944
Standard Deviation 18
40SW HP38 155BFP 5.4gr
Number of Shots 7
Extreme Spread 32
Average 955
Standard Deviation 10
40SW HP38 155BFP 5.5gr
Number of Shots 7
Extreme Spread 26
Average 970
Standard Deviation 10
40SW HP38 155BFP 5.6gr
Number of Shots 10
Extreme Spread 44
Average 1000
Standard Deviation 14
40SW HP38 155BFP 5.7gr
Number of Shots 6
Extreme Spread 71
Average 998
Standard Deviation 22
BE86 is good for full-power loads, having a slower burn rate that's very useful in this application This is my ladder with the 155gr. Speer Gold Dot HP. 7.3-7.7gr. of BE86 was tested using CCI500 primers and an OAL of 1.125". At 1189fps max it's a little faster than most factory 155gr. 40 loads. I use the 7.7gr. max load as my standard 40 defensive-style load. With it I am well-armed against water jugs large and small.
40SW BE86 155GD 7.3gr
Number of Shots 8
Extreme Spread 39
Average 1153
Standard Deviation 12
40SW BE86 155GD 7.4gr
Number of Shots 10
Extreme Spread 51
Average 1155
Standard Deviation 13
40SW BE86 155GD 7.5gr
Number of Shots 9
Extreme Spread 36
Average 1159
Standard Deviation 11
40SW BE86 155GD 7.6gr
Number of Shots 10
Extreme Spread 59
Average 1167
Standard Deviation 14
40SW BE86 155GD 7.7gr
Number of Shots 9
Extreme Spread 32
Average 1189
Standard Deviation 9
It was late when I posted this. I’m not sure on a bullet yet. It’s my brothers guns and he will be using my equipment to load, so bullet type will be what he prefers. I’m guessing something cheap just to punch paper.
lordpaxman
Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 2,434
My P239 has a bit longer barrel than the shield, I think it's .5" longer but I load 155 XTPs and 180 whatevers. I found W231 is middle of the road for .40 powders and loading at the top end of the Hodgedon load data produced major PF. If you want target loads, I'd suggest something faster, Titegroup if you dare, WST is also a really nice soft shooting faster powder and what I load for target. If you want full power SD, go slower with WSF, N340 or CFE Pistol.
mcb
Member
Vihtavuori N320. The cleanest powder I have ever used in a pistol cartridge. Should work with 155 - 180gr 40S&W
ray15
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2017
- Messages
- 946
Yeah, the Berry's 155FP I used is good for that. I got a bunch cheap at a clearance sale. I'd recommend whatever 155gr. plated FP bullet you can get cheap, with ~5.5gr of HP38. I've not tried it but a plain lead or coated 155 like Acme with a little lighter charge should work great too.
LiveLife
Member
Shooting many full power 40S&W loads in compacts/subcompacts may result in sore hands/wrists the next day wishing you didn't have to write.
I shot 155/165/180 gr 40S&W for USPSA with powders meeting major and minor power factors. What I found is heavier 180 gr bullets with lighter powder charges of W231/HP-38 produced lower felt recoil loads than 155/165 gr bullets.
180 gr TCFP with 3.8 - 4.0 gr of W231/HP-38 loaded to 1.135" OAL will produce lighter than 9mm recoil loads more comfortable to shoot in compacts/subcompacts like your M&P Shield/Compact. Powder charges to 4.3 gr will produce mild 40S&W recoil loads.
This Guns & Ammo article is a good reference for loading lighter 40S&W loads meeting USPSA minor power factor - https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/ammunition_40lite_091806/138689
165 gr bullet weight is a good compromise between 180/155 gr bullet in terms of cost and accuracy and 5.0 gr W231/HP-38 at 1.135" is one of my reference loads.
RMR sells pulled 40S&W bullets and at $71.25/1000 shipped with 5% THR discount, is a good price to start working up your loads (And you get a mixture of 180/165/155 bullets to do comparison testing) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ponents-on-sale.707473/page-176#post-11134941
Powders slower burning than Unique/Universal will produce higher velocity/full power loads and I found BE-86, WSF and Herco (Yes, Herco) to produce accurate mid-to-high range load data rounds. Unlike 9mm which needs to be loaded shorter than SAAMI max OAL to produce accuracy, 40S&W 180/165 gr bullets with long bullet base will produce sufficient neck tension even when loaded longer (to reduce gas leakage) than SAAMI max OAL of 1.135".
In the 40S&W Herco thread, longer OALs for 180 gr TCFP produced smaller shot groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-lead-plated-bullets.743416/#post-9363753
And even longer OAL for RMR 180 gr RNFP produced these 15/25 yard groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...for-40-s-w-165gr-xtreme.840010/#post-10897656
And with BE-86 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9645513
Last edited:
GW Staar
Member
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2009
- Messages
- 3,691
Informative post bds, worthy of a print out. I've never experimented with anything under 180's......being of the camp who consider even 180's too light for self defense (230's for that matter), unless shot at rifle velocities. But that's another subject, with plenty of opinions.
Also I've never used W231/HP-38..........I will finally buy a can....sounds interesting......the recoil factor plays a bigger part for me as more years go by.
Also I've never used W231/HP-38..........I will finally buy a can....sounds interesting......the recoil factor plays a bigger part for me as more years go by.
Informative post bds, worthy of a print out. I've never experimented with anything under 180's......being of the camp who consider even 180's too light for self defense (230's for that matter), unless shot at rifle velocities. But that's another subject, with plenty of opinions.
Also I've never used W231/HP-38..........I will finally buy a can....sounds interesting......the recoil factor plays a bigger part for me as more years go by.
Yes, that is a big can of worms, no bullet 220 grain or less is to light for SD from a handgun??? Geese what is a"acceptable"
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I'm a big fan of W231/HP38 and use it for most of what I load plus another powder.
In the 40 S&W the other powder used to be HS-7 and now it's AA#7. IMO AA#7 is the powder to deliver high end performance in the 40 and 10mm.
In the 40 S&W the other powder used to be HS-7 and now it's AA#7. IMO AA#7 is the powder to deliver high end performance in the 40 and 10mm.
I used .40 S&W for range fun only, and preferred 180s at 900 to 950 FPS over faster 155s or 165s. Many factory 180 Gr defensive JHPs don't go any faster.
5.0 Grs of old 3 Lb metal can W-231 under a 180 Gr plated or coated shoots very well and is more pleasant to shoot than faster loads with heavier loads of slower powder. It gives a nice short recoil impulse.
Light 155s (750ish FPS) can shoot well though.
Ranier 155 Gr TrFP. Eight rounds each with Sport Pistol & N320. (Target @ 7 yards - Chrono @ 5 yards)
5.0 Grs of old 3 Lb metal can W-231 under a 180 Gr plated or coated shoots very well and is more pleasant to shoot than faster loads with heavier loads of slower powder. It gives a nice short recoil impulse.
Light 155s (750ish FPS) can shoot well though.
Ranier 155 Gr TrFP. Eight rounds each with Sport Pistol & N320. (Target @ 7 yards - Chrono @ 5 yards)
Last edited:
ray15
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2017
- Messages
- 946
I load the 180gr. Armscor FMJs that RMR sells to that velocity level, and the 155@970fps load I recommended above kicks less. If you load to the same muzzle energy level the 180 is going to shoot softer but a 155gr load going about the same velocity as a 180gr. one kicks less. Feels like 9mm to me (147@950fps). The 1200fps BE86 155gr. Gold Dot load I also detailed has enough recoil to talk about. I push the 155s to 1300fps with Longshot and they are pretty stout for 40.
sparkyv
Member
HP38 works the best for me...followed by Universal, LongShot (most economical) and then Blue Dot. Unique works also, but does not meter well.
LiveLife
Member
OP is shooting compact/subcompact and will appreciate lighter loads.
Since OP has HP-38, I think lighter load development with 180/165 gr bullet would be a good start before shooting "nuclear" loads.
Good thing OP also has BE-86 as it is flexible to load accurate mid range loads as well as full power loads.
Last edited:
LiveLife
Member
Thank you and you are very welcome.
W231/HP-38 is good for producing light loads with 180 gr bullet. Guns & Ammo article author wanted lighter loads for medical reasons and went even lighter than lowest charge I tested which was 3.8 gr - https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/ammunition_40lite_091806/138689
"Several years ago I developed carpal tunnel syndrome and tennis elbow in both arms, and all of the writing and handgun shooting I do has only served to exacerbate the condition. This made firing .40 and .45 Major loads painful"
Sport Pistol is another good powder as it has duplicated powder charges for most of my W231/HP-38 loads.
Last edited:
ray15
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2017
- Messages
- 946
There's no doubt that slowing a load down by 200fps will make for less kick. But I can't understand why everyone is acting like a 155@970 is something you can't shoot out of a Shield. I question just how soft you need to go - this is a soft shooting load. Softer than anything 180gr. that I've loaded.So did these.
And I mean mouse fart level kick.
Last edited:
GW Staar
Member
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2009
- Messages
- 3,691
I have two .40s. A Kahr CW40 and a Ruger SR40. There are other factors to kick. The Kahr kicks butt.....the Ruger feels like a 9mm......with factory 180 Grain SD rounds. I think it must have to do with the double spring on the Ruger.
Couple that with the loads you guys are talking about.....my wife will smile....
Hmmmm .... new definition of mouse gun? then what are the old mouse guns? Flea guns?
Couple that with the loads you guys are talking about.....my wife will smile....
Hmmmm .... new definition of mouse gun? then what are the old mouse guns? Flea guns?
ray15
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2017
- Messages
- 946
They aren't even the OP's guns.. 155gr. loads can be loaded to any power level you like, just like 165s and 180s. No one is recommending 'nuclear' loads - I gave one example of what HP38 is good for and one of what BE86 is good for. If the actual owner of these guns can't tolerate a 155@970fps load it's time to re-think the caliber choice.OP is shooting compact/subcompact and will appreciate lighter loads.
Since OP has HP-38, I think lighter load development with 180/165 gr bullet would be a good start before shooting "nuclear" loads.
Good thing OP also has BE-86 as it is flexible to load accurate mid range loads as well as full power loads.
No doubt lighter bullets can get you lighter recoil, period, but what I was implying with 180s is that the typical full power 180s are more pleasant to shoot than the full power 155s/165s. IMHO of course.
After the starting loads with the 155s that gave me 700ish FPS (And good accuracy) I bumped them up and by the time they got to 900ish they were light, but no longer mouse fart level, and I would have to go back, load them side by side with light loaded 180s, and shoot them side by side to see what I preferred.
For true mouse fart loads it's 155s.
But I was originally talking about full power/near full power loads when saying I prefer 180s.
We may have gotten off topic with light loads, as I assumed the OP was talking about full power/near full power stuff. Could be wrong.
After the starting loads with the 155s that gave me 700ish FPS (And good accuracy) I bumped them up and by the time they got to 900ish they were light, but no longer mouse fart level, and I would have to go back, load them side by side with light loaded 180s, and shoot them side by side to see what I preferred.
For true mouse fart loads it's 155s.
But I was originally talking about full power/near full power loads when saying I prefer 180s.
We may have gotten off topic with light loads, as I assumed the OP was talking about full power/near full power stuff. Could be wrong.
Just looking to duplicate factory loads.
LiveLife
Member
As Walkalong posted, I also found less felt recoil "snap" from 180 gr loads compared to 155 gr loads loaded to high-to-near max load data.Just looking to duplicate factory loads.
Last edited:
- Status
