Put pen to paper and grab a timer. That is the equalizer and may open your eyes to what truly works.
Can we dispel the whole "Glock Grip Angle" nonsense already?
- Thread starter Trey Veston
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amd6547
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Nonsense.
Have you ever done any work with a timer?
AK103K
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Since this just seems to keep getting sillier and sillier, lets get everyone (well, the one gunners anyway
) out of their comfort zone, and make things really interesting.Put a bunch of different guns, of all types, in a box, and you have to shoot, under threat of the clock, with the one you reach in and grab, sight unseen. No prep, no sighters, just get to shooting.
Whoever does well, and isn't whining and barking out excuses at the end, about things being unfair and unshootable, will be considered a "shooter", and will get a little gold star for their hat. Everyone else needs to get a life!
onthehunt
Member
I have no issue with the grip angle of the Glock or the M&P.
JR24
Member
Since this just seems to keep getting sillier and sillier, lets get everyone (well, the one gunners anyway
Put a bunch of different guns, of all types, in a box, and you have to shoot, under threat of the clock, with the one you reach in and grab, sight unseen. No prep, no sighters, just get to shooting.
Whoever does well, and isn't whining and barking out excuses at the end, about things being unfair and unshootable, will be considered a "shooter", and will get a little gold star for their hat. Everyone else needs to get a life!
That would actually be a pretty fun challenge
amd6547
Member
When I was young, I set out to own and shoot all the great classic war pistols that I grew up reading about, and discussing with my Dad. He was a WWII vet, and had an encyclopedic knowledge of small arms.
Over the years, I pretty much achieved that goal, having owned many of the great handguns old and new.
A search for experience... what’s it like to carry and shoot a Browning 1910? A Polish Radom 9mm? A Luger?
I shot all those and more. Many of those old guns were pretty un-ergonomic, but I never found one I couldn’t get it’s best with, never found a grip that I couldn’t make use of without complaint, and shoot well.
The Glock feels like shaking hands with an old friend for me, yet I really didn’t get into them until few years ago. Now I own three...26,17, and lately, a police surplus G22 Gen4. The later, with no backstrap installed, and the Gen4 grip texture, is fantastic. And it was cheap, too!
Complaining about this or that grip is a self-limiting attitude.
Over the years, I pretty much achieved that goal, having owned many of the great handguns old and new.
A search for experience... what’s it like to carry and shoot a Browning 1910? A Polish Radom 9mm? A Luger?
I shot all those and more. Many of those old guns were pretty un-ergonomic, but I never found one I couldn’t get it’s best with, never found a grip that I couldn’t make use of without complaint, and shoot well.
The Glock feels like shaking hands with an old friend for me, yet I really didn’t get into them until few years ago. Now I own three...26,17, and lately, a police surplus G22 Gen4. The later, with no backstrap installed, and the Gen4 grip texture, is fantastic. And it was cheap, too!
Complaining about this or that grip is a self-limiting attitude.
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agreed, might do that next range trip. B
bag, steel plate challenge!
Only got 4 or 5 handguns, but it's enough to be confusing...
Might have to work on the details, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea.... specially if i get my buddies Involved, there are 3 g19s between them and one has a trigger so stiff and crunchy it had me looking for a safety the first time i shot it...
he he...you grabbed a Glock....which one is it.....
whughett
Member
You are also 1 in many hundreds if not thousands of people that don’t do that. Some one run a poll, how many viewers on these pages are just casual target shooters that also own more than one gun and shoot at least once a month and therefore qualify to have an opinion on like or dislike.
Just saying. Threads like this are all subjective.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Something I frequently do with a new gun or one I’ve never shot before, is to grab it and point it out like I’m aiming an about to fire, but I’ll have my eyes closed. When I open my eyes some guns have the sights lined up nearly perfectly, others not so much, normally high.
Now how much of that is “grip angle” and how much is something else, I have no idea. The grip angle of a 1911 doesn’t change, but if I remove the flat mainspring housing and replace it with the normal rounded one, the (my) natural line of sight has changed.
In my limited experience I point glocks a little high, 1911’s with flat Mainspring housing are less a little less high, my KAHR’s are dang near perfect.
Some I can’t seem to get good repeatability on, like an XD.
But to say grip angle doesn’t matter, that’s just silly.
The question is how much does it affect you?
Now that I can’t really answer, but it definitely does have an affect.
Now how much of that is “grip angle” and how much is something else, I have no idea. The grip angle of a 1911 doesn’t change, but if I remove the flat mainspring housing and replace it with the normal rounded one, the (my) natural line of sight has changed.
In my limited experience I point glocks a little high, 1911’s with flat Mainspring housing are less a little less high, my KAHR’s are dang near perfect.
Some I can’t seem to get good repeatability on, like an XD.
But to say grip angle doesn’t matter, that’s just silly.
The question is how much does it affect you?
Now that I can’t really answer, but it definitely does have an affect.
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Buckeye63
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Im weird , never paid much attention to grip angle .. I own 9 glocks ... 5 other brands of semi auto pistols ... I shoot any as well as any ... And as for trigger pull ... Give me a mag or two .. and I will adjust to a trigger .. If you cut your teeth on shooting a J frame revolver in DAO .. you can shoot anything .
hemiram
Member
There's really nothing I like about Glocks. I don't like the grip shape on the older ones, and I'm not crazy about the grip on the newest ones, either. I don't like the looks of them, and I think they are overpriced and overrated. I don't like the grip on a 1911 either. The CZ and Sig grips are great, with the edge going to CZ. The M&P is better to shoot than a Glock. I don't own an M&P or a Glock, if that matters, but I do own a half dozen CZ clones and 4 Sigs.
Kano383
Member
It just so happen that we were discussing this very issue on another forum a few days ago...
When comparing grip angle, people usually forget to consider the other key points that define the way a handgun points and handles, i.e. where and what are the relative positions/angles of the trigger, backstrap, beavertail, slide/barrel, web of hand, trigger finger, and palm.
If you superimpose a 1911 Commander on a G19, referencing them at the beavertail - which is where your hand anchors, therefore defining your grip - a few things become apparent:
- The bore axis is lower on the Glock, OR, more accurately, the position where the web of your hand reaches is higher. This comes at the cost of:
- One has to bend his trigger finger much lower to reach the Glock's trigger.
- In addition, the backstraps (which, again, are the actual references for your grip) do not have the same angle, by as much as 5-6 degrees.
Here is how it looks like when you align the triggers, beavertails, and backstraps... That's why most people, especially if they do not own a Glock, when asked to point the gun with their eyes closed and THEN to open them and look at their sights, find themselves looking at the top of the slide, with the barrel sloping upwards.
QED.
PS. - 5 degrees, if this doesn't sound like much... That's enough to point 30" higher at ten yards.
When comparing grip angle, people usually forget to consider the other key points that define the way a handgun points and handles, i.e. where and what are the relative positions/angles of the trigger, backstrap, beavertail, slide/barrel, web of hand, trigger finger, and palm.
If you superimpose a 1911 Commander on a G19, referencing them at the beavertail - which is where your hand anchors, therefore defining your grip - a few things become apparent:
- The bore axis is lower on the Glock, OR, more accurately, the position where the web of your hand reaches is higher. This comes at the cost of:
- One has to bend his trigger finger much lower to reach the Glock's trigger.
- In addition, the backstraps (which, again, are the actual references for your grip) do not have the same angle, by as much as 5-6 degrees.
Here is how it looks like when you align the triggers, beavertails, and backstraps... That's why most people, especially if they do not own a Glock, when asked to point the gun with their eyes closed and THEN to open them and look at their sights, find themselves looking at the top of the slide, with the barrel sloping upwards.
QED.
PS. - 5 degrees, if this doesn't sound like much... That's enough to point 30" higher at ten yards.
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AK103K
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While there is a physical difference, youre forgetting the ability of the human body and brain to adapt, and adjust, which it does, automatically, without thought, especially if its had the opportunity to do so in use and practice.
The only people I see bitching about the difference, are those who dont have enough experience with the different guns, to know that it doesn't matter, once your brain knows the gun.
I regularly shoot Glocks, 1911's, Berettas, SIG's, a few other autos, and a bunch of different revolvers, and do so interchangeably, at will, with no trouble at all. And if I can do it, you certainly can.
I point shoot with all of them too, and regardless which one is in my hand at the moment, they all point where Im looking, and the rounds go where Im looking when I shoot.
If you track the sights while you shoot, grip angle is meaningless, even with a gun you never handled before.
Anyone shooting a gun with a lower bore axis, that has a grip that allows for a higher hold on it, understands that advantage, and regualrly shooting guns of both types, Ive yet to notice that the trigger is a reach or problem with any of them.
If this grip angle thing is such an issue for you, I would highly suggest, you get the gun that you say is such a problem and spend some quality time with it. Do that, and I can pretty much guarantee, in short order, you will have a whole different outlook on things.
It still probably wont be your favorite (you never know though), you may not shoot it better than something else, but it will stop the whining and silly BS, about things that dont matter. 
If you really want to do yourself a favor too, get a decent DA revolver, and learn to shoot it DAO. That will do wonders for ALL of your shooting, and addresses the other worry so many seem to have, the trigger.
The only people I see bitching about the difference, are those who dont have enough experience with the different guns, to know that it doesn't matter, once your brain knows the gun.
I regularly shoot Glocks, 1911's, Berettas, SIG's, a few other autos, and a bunch of different revolvers, and do so interchangeably, at will, with no trouble at all. And if I can do it, you certainly can.
I point shoot with all of them too, and regardless which one is in my hand at the moment, they all point where Im looking, and the rounds go where Im looking when I shoot.
If you track the sights while you shoot, grip angle is meaningless, even with a gun you never handled before.
Anyone shooting a gun with a lower bore axis, that has a grip that allows for a higher hold on it, understands that advantage, and regualrly shooting guns of both types, Ive yet to notice that the trigger is a reach or problem with any of them.
If this grip angle thing is such an issue for you, I would highly suggest, you get the gun that you say is such a problem and spend some quality time with it. Do that, and I can pretty much guarantee, in short order, you will have a whole different outlook on things.
It still probably wont be your favorite (you never know though
), you may not shoot it better than something else, but it will stop the whining and silly BS, about things that dont matter. If you really want to do yourself a favor too, get a decent DA revolver, and learn to shoot it DAO. That will do wonders for ALL of your shooting, and addresses the other worry so many seem to have, the trigger.
JR24
Member
While there is a physical difference, youre forgetting the ability of the human body and brain to adapt, and adjust, which it does, automatically, without thought, especially if its had the opportunity to do so in use and practice.
The only people I see bitching about the difference, are those who dont have enough experience with the different guns, to know that it doesn't matter, once your brain knows the gun.
I regularly shoot Glocks, 1911's, Berettas, SIG's, a few other autos, and a bunch of different revolvers, and do so interchangeably, at will, with no trouble at all. And if I can do it, you certainly can.
I point shoot with all of them too, and regardless which one is in my hand at the moment, they all point where Im looking, and the rounds go where Im looking when I shoot.
If you track the sights while you shoot, grip angle is meaningless, even with a gun you never handled before.
Anyone shooting a gun with a lower bore axis, that has a grip that allows for a higher hold on it, understands that advantage, and regualrly shooting guns of both types, Ive yet to notice that the trigger is a reach or problem with any of them.
If this grip angle thing is such an issue for you, I would highly suggest, you get the gun that you say is such a problem and spend some quality time with it. Do that, and I can pretty much guarantee, in short order, you will have a whole different outlook on things.
It still probably wont be your favorite (you never know though
If you really want to do yourself a favor too, get a decent DA revolver, and learn to shoot it DAO. That will do wonders for ALL of your shooting, and addresses the other worry so many seem to have, the trigger.
I have to say I was one of the doubters for many years. Tried a Glock 19 once and wrote the platform off for years and was often an internet "hater".
Then a Gen 4 Glock 21 kinda fell into my lap on a trade I took a flier on. I decided to just learn the gun and it turned out to just really work for me, especially the 21 and 17.
Now I can, and do, transition between my Glocks and 1911s on the range on various times drills and don't have an issue with the angles or triggers or whatnot, I've shot them enough that my hands can figure it out.
My weakness is the aforementioned long DA pull on a revolver or DA/SA. I don't shoot them well easily and I'm sure it's just practice, so I dont prefer that type of gun, but I also recognize it's simply a "me" issue that could be fixed with range time and effort, should I desire to.
TikkaShooter
Member
With their attitude of here is your issued weapon; the Army broke me of being picky. Or perhaps being spoiled? As a civilian, I can be picky which I enjoy a lot.
AK103K
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Theres nothing wrong with being picky, or liking what you like. We all do it, and its a natural thing.
Whats annoying is, constantly hearing BS and mistruths, by people who usually have little to no actual experience with whats being discussed, spouting crap, thats not true or correct.
If you dont like something, fine. No one is telling you to like something you dont. Just do us all a favor, and just say you dont like it and leave it at that. No need to embellish questionable to flat out wrong things, or continue to push unsubstantiated falsehoods, to try and make your point.
The internet can be a great resource. But, it can also be a great source of aggravation, when it comes to stuff like this.
Whats annoying is, constantly hearing BS and mistruths, by people who usually have little to no actual experience with whats being discussed, spouting crap, thats not true or correct.
If you dont like something, fine. No one is telling you to like something you dont. Just do us all a favor, and just say you dont like it and leave it at that. No need to embellish questionable to flat out wrong things, or continue to push unsubstantiated falsehoods, to try and make your point.
The internet can be a great resource. But, it can also be a great source of aggravation, when it comes to stuff like this.
Old Dog
Member
yeah ... uh ... no. The people that have enough experience with different guns know which guns they shoot better than others; these same folks know that yes, it does matter, because different people do have vastly differing sizes of hands and widely varying aspects of visual-spatial perception and degradation of eyesight, degrees of grip strength, hand steadiness, so on and so forth.
Are you saying that you are equally as proficient with each platform? Jerry? Jerry Miculek? Is that you?
Yeah, you're right. This thread has gotten silly.
AK103K
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I never said I didnt shoot one better than another. We all have our favorites, and I have mine, just like anyone else.
I also happen to favor a Glock for daily carry, regular use and practice, even though I dont shoot it "as well" as some of the others I shoot. Use and purpose drive choice there. Some guns are more toys, where others are utilitarian and have to cover a broader spectrum of use.
I shoot, or do my very best, to shoot everything I have and use, "well". It would get down to nitpicking, to say what I shot best. Of course, that also depends on "how" Im shooting. Some guns shoot bug holes when you try to shoot bug holes, and those same guns shoot just like the ones that wont, when you shoot them in a manner that they werent really meant for.
Funny thing is, the bug hole gun, and the non bug hole gun, shoot pretty much the same, when that is going on. But if I were shooting for a bullseye score, I would defineitly want that bug hole gun.
Where I see the nitpicking and whining here is, people want to complain about something that really doesnt make "that much" of a difference in reality when you actually look at things realistically.
Id be very willing to stick my hand in that box I mentioned above, and shoot against you with what ever I pulled out. Im comfortable with pretty much everything I pick up, and if Im not, then thats the one Ill be shooting the most until I am.
How about you? You comfortable shooting anything you pick up? By your comments, Im guessing you're more of a narrow choice shooter.
And if I were to strive to be someone else, Jerry would certainly be a good choice and role model!
Often the real root cause of the aggravation is well-intentioned people talking past one another because of some unstated, unrecognized assumption that is not shared.
I think a cause of some aggravation in this particular thread is what everyone means by "shooting well."
You are quite correct that, given generous or moderate time constraints, grip angle should have essentially nothing to do with shooting groups. Visual feedback from the sights simply makes the way the gun indexes irrelevant. So if what we're discussing is putting a target, or even a closely-spaced group of targets, out at some distance and generally hitting what you're aiming at - you're right, grip angle is going to be at or near the bottom of issues, and should basically have no effect. Thus, when I take half a dozen different handguns to the range for pure recreational shooting, none of this grip angle stuff matters.
On the other hand, if the kind of shooting that we're discussing is highly time pressured and involves throwing the gun around between widely spaced targets, breaking and rebuilding the grip as the shooter physically runs around, drawing and trying to hit a target literally as fast as possible, etc., then quality of index matters a lot. By a lot, I mean adding or subtracting a tenth of a second, or half a tenth, refining a sight picture (or finding a dot) before breaking the first shot out of the holster, and on the first shot after a wide transition, and the first show after a reload, and the first shot on a new array or position.
There's all kinds of little thing about how a car is set up, and your intimate familiarity with that car, that simply don't matter if you're commuting to work or driving to the grocery store. But all those little differences between cars would start to make a lot of difference if you were racing the car. If you were going to race, you'd probably want to spend time getting to know a very specific car and know all of the little "feels" it has. Wouldn't stop you from competently driving another car on the street.
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you are not listening. I said mag base angle, not mag base. the base angle has nothing to do with the grip angle. shiow a pic of your two guns side-by-side so we can see the grip angles.
murf
AK103K
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I drive everything from heavy equipment, tri-axle dumps, moms family van, sedans, and even little sporty cars and motorcycles. Stick and auto. Even had a couple in between.
Which in the same vein, is the whole point of getting to know and shoot guns of different types so its not an issue. Can you get in and drive it, no matter what it is? Or pick it up and shoot it no matter what it is?
I think a lot of the issue here is, you have people talking from a broader experience and you have people who are coming from a narrower experience. What you have is, "you know what you know", and therein lies the difference.
scaatylobo
Member
I agree that "grip angle" is a bit hyped.
BUT after owning and shooting the highly praised Sig P365,I found that the "grip angle" on that pistol was HORRIBLE for me.
After putting about 500 rounds through mine,its sits in the safe and the G-43 & 43X are carried often.
With the G-19 as a primary [ customized ] and only left behind when I need real deep CCW material.
But the grip angle of that P365 was horrible = for me that is.
Yes, I can pick it up and shoot it, just as I can drive most vehicles (although my heavy equipment driving experience is limited to a couple of farm tractors).
But I cannot drive a strange car to quite the same level of performance that I can drive a car that I'm deeply familiar with. Similarly, I will have to spend a tiny fraction of a second finding the sights on every new presentation with a gun with significant differences from the ones I'm most familiar with.
Once again, all this depends on what you mean by "well."
Further example/story around this. I shoot USPSA. For most of the last 5 years, I used a Tanfoglio Limited gun - an iron-sighted gun. Earlier this year, I had an open-division gun built - these are guns that have, among other things, a frame-mounted red-dot sight sitting an inch or so above the bore, and significantly above where the iron sights would sit.
I had my open gun built on another Tanfoglio limited. So the grip and controls and trigger - everything was literally exactly the same. From the very first time I took it to the range, it was very easy to stand and shoot groups and generally run the gun. However, it took a little while to re-train my index to stop the gun about an inch and a half lower on the draw, and on every re-presentation of the gun. A few thousand dry-fire draws got this smoothed out pretty well, and my index shifted over. But it wasn't instant. It did not matter for standing and shooting at a square range. It mattered in competition until I got it sorted.
Now, of course, when I pull out my iron-sighted gun (again, virtually identical in many respects), I often find myself looking over the top of the sights for a tiny fraction of a second before I bump it up a touch higher. My index changed.
Grip angle differences are the same way. It's not that hard to change one's index. Sometimes index doesn't matter at all. So, yes, most competent shooters can pick up a gun and shoot it with some competence. But, depending on the kind of shooting one does and the performance expectations one has for the particular gun, grip angle - and other aspects of how a gun indexes - can matter significantly.
I had my open gun built on another Tanfoglio limited. So the grip and controls and trigger - everything was literally exactly the same. From the very first time I took it to the range, it was very easy to stand and shoot groups and generally run the gun. However, it took a little while to re-train my index to stop the gun about an inch and a half lower on the draw, and on every re-presentation of the gun. A few thousand dry-fire draws got this smoothed out pretty well, and my index shifted over. But it wasn't instant. It did not matter for standing and shooting at a square range. It mattered in competition until I got it sorted.
Now, of course, when I pull out my iron-sighted gun (again, virtually identical in many respects), I often find myself looking over the top of the sights for a tiny fraction of a second before I bump it up a touch higher. My index changed.
Grip angle differences are the same way. It's not that hard to change one's index. Sometimes index doesn't matter at all. So, yes, most competent shooters can pick up a gun and shoot it with some competence. But, depending on the kind of shooting one does and the performance expectations one has for the particular gun, grip angle - and other aspects of how a gun indexes - can matter significantly.
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