Glock grip angle - no flaming please !

[jmr40]

A note about 1911's. They originally had flat a MSH. During WW-1 many complained about the gun not pointing well and shooting low. Extensive military testing found that most felt the gun pointed more naturally and shot more accurately with the arched MSH. The military changed to arched in the 1920's and left them that way until they were replaced in 1985. A 1911 with the arched MSH has a grip angle very similar to the Glock and with the hump. Glock actually copied the grip of a 1911 with the proven arched MSH.

Using a flat MSH is a fairly modern change which helps make the gun point a little better for slow fire accuracy shooting. The Glock and arched MSH 1911's point and shoot better for rapid fire combat shooting.

 

[Rail Driver]

For me it's not the angle of the grip, but the hump on the back of the grip that I don't like. It causes me to shoot high.

I've owned a few Glocks of various sizes, and have traded each one for a 1911 after shooting it a few times. The only one I kept for any length of time was a G19 with a grip chop down to G26 length. Chopping the grip had the side effect of removing most of the hump.

 

[rcmodel]

For me, if I close my eyes and point a 1911 at arms length, and then open them.
The sights are aligned.
With either a flat or arched housing.

If I do it with my Glock 23, I am looking at the ejection port.

Is it the same grip angle?
Maybe.

Is it the fat on the base of my hand?
Could be?

Is it the hollow where the web of my hand has depressed a grip safety for 50 years?
Probably.

Whatever it is, I don't care for my Glock 23's instinctive pointing ability at all.

rc

 

[HKGuns]

For me, if I close my eyes and point a 1911 at arms length, and then open them.
The sights are aligned.
With either a flat or arched housing.

If I do it with my Glock 23, I am looking at the ejection port.

Is it the same grip angle?
Maybe.

^^What he said.^^ If you train to draw and shoot it becomes muscle memory and you can do it with your eyes closed and know how it feels when it is correct.

 

[MachIVshooter]

For me, if I close my eyes and point a 1911 at arms length, and then open them.
The sights are aligned.
With either a flat or arched housing.

If I do it with my Glock 23, I am looking at the ejection port.

I found the same thing between my G20 and most of my other guns, be they 1911's, Witnesses or something else.

I can shoot the 20 just fine, but I have to remind myself that's what is in my hand, and I have to make a more concious effort to align the sights.

The grip profile of the Glock is very similar to a 1911 with arched MSH; It is the width of the hump that changes the game.

 

[JRH6856]

Once someone masters a Glock they won't go back because they find the angle improves their shooting.

With two weeks practice I can master a Glock. But it doesn't improve my shooting. It just makes my shooting worse with my other guns. And since I like my other guns, I don't shoot Glocks. One of these days I'll get one and work on the grip until it is less "natural" and more correct (for me).

 

[rcmodel]

I can master a Glock. But it doesn't improve my shooting.

There ya go!!

My sentiments exactly.

I got a new Glock 23 in 1995.
I still have it, and I still don't like it.

If I hadn't have spent way too much money to recover on mags & holsters & .40 loading dies & .40 ammo & .40 brass?

It would have been long gone long ago.

I have come to realize I don't like Glocks, and I don't especially like .40 S&W either.

rc

 

[JRH6856]

The grip profile of the Glock is very similar to a 1911 with arched MSH; It is the width of the hump that changes the game.

I think JDGray may have pegged the major difference as the height of the grip tang. It is higher than a 1911 and the result is that the gun sits in the hand with the barrel tilted up. The hump exaggerates it by forcing the web high into the tang. And the width exaggerates the hump.

 

[Hangingrock]

It’s simply a matter of being adaptive.I have no problems with either shooting a 1911 series or a Glock.

In decades past I could visualize myself at Parris Island telling a PMI (AKA – Primary Marksmanship Instructor) I don’t like the grip angle of the 1911-A1. It makes a loud noise and it hurts my hand. Is there some thing else I could use?

When I acquired an S&W M&P9 wasn’t particularly happy with the trigger but learned how to use it. In a range session I’ll as an example use both a Glock G17 and an S&W M&P9. The transition is not problematic between firing either one.

 

[rcmodel]

I have no problems with either shooting a 1911 series or a Glock

I don't either.

But that doesn't make me like a Glock grip as much as I like a 1911 grip!

rc

 

[jfrey]

Glock is the only pistol I had to "learn" how to shoot. I'm not a hater, I own a couple of them but they just don't shoot like other pistols. I've shot various 1911's, the BHP, 3 different models of S&W pistols and just picked them up and shot them well. After a couple thousand rounds through my G19 I can now shoot it fairly well but the others are just more natural from the beginning. I have found that new shooters, with little or no exerience, will do better with a Glock from the start than older, more experienced shooters. Just my observation, not scientific fact.

 

[X-Rap]

From reading about the Glock grip I have learned that you can tell all the old pistolaros and top shooting hands because they can't hit with the Glock.
Look for those guys shooting the tupperware with shots all over and you can bet they are probably masters with the 1911. The sure sign of a newb is that Glock guy with a tight group.

 

[JohnKSa]

Maybe my hand is more like JMB's than Mr. Glock's.

The 1911's grip angle was certainly not JMB's idea. If you look at his earlier pistols and even at the 1910 prototype he provided to the army for the iniitial trials, you'll see that they all have nearly vertical grips. In other words, the grips are at essentially right angles to the barrel.

The army clearly provided the impetus that caused JMB to add the rake to the grip of the 1911. If it weren't clear enough we get confirmation a few years later when, with the A1 mod and the humped mainspring housing, the army tried to change the effective grip angle to make it even more raked.

 

[Armed012002]

Does anyone have insight in exactly why Gaston Glock chose the grip angle of his design?

Was it based on research on which angle is the best or "just because."

I'm going to take a guess that it was based on research.

Personally, I find I'm faster with the Glock than the 1911.

 

[JohnKSa]

Supposedly it was the result of ergonomic studies. Remington did similar ergonomic studies when developing the P51 pistol and, not surprisingly came up with a very similar grip angle. Oddly enough, it was, and still is, praised as being a very natural pointing design.

 

[meanmrmustard]

"I think the Glock grip angle feels "unnatural" simply because people are by then used to shooting other guns & habitually raise Glock too high at first."

Maybe all wrists and hands aren't the same. Could be. Maybe my hand is more like JMB's than Mr. Glock's.

John

+1. Let me reiterate to leave no one thinking I'm flaming: For me, the Glock points unnaturally, due to how the weapon sits in my hand. Therefore, I do not shoot it anywhere near accurate. I've been told on here and at the range that I could "train" myself to hold and shoot a Glock "better". Nope, I'm good, and I'll pass thank you. I'd rather practice with a weapon that is comfortable to me, especially in lieu of Gaston's ridiculous amount of grip slant. That slant I'd do without, and I'd literally start liking a Glock. It's like 50 degrees or better, but if it were less, I'd actually buy one.

My hands aren't so much like JMB's as they're like the Koucky Brothers.

 

[amd6547]

After decades of handgun shooting, the Glock grip angle suits me fine....My G26 and G17 both point like a finger for me.
But then, so does a Tokarev, another pistol that often gets bashed for poor grip angle, but in the opposite direction of Glock.

 

[Nushif]

Funny enough the Tokarev is th most natural pointer to me.

Going purely on grip angle the Tokarev design to me is the most pointable, as well as controllable.
But there is a lot more to shooting a pistol well than just picking it up and it "feeling good."

Had somepne learned on a Luger, and been given a 1911, they'd sit here and verbatim write about "Why should I have to learn a new angle? This Browning guy is an idiot with a malformed hand. No thanks, I'll stick to my proper angle."

As much as people make a big deal out of it they still had to learn how to point a 1911. Just very few people tend to admit that they had to learn how to shoot. 8)

 

[Wanderling]

Isn't Glock grip angle exactly the same as Parabellum (Luger) ? Since Gaston was 16 at the end of WWII, he was probably very familiar with it, so for him at least it would be more "natural". I also recall reading somewhere that when Walther P38 was introduced (which has more conventional grip angle) it was not very liked since it didn't quite have the accuracy of a Parabellum. I read that German soldiers nicknamed it "Lightning" joking that it would never strike the same man twice. This was of course an exaggeration, but it shows that Parabellum must've had the same level of respect in German speaking countries as 1911 has now in the US. So imitating it's grip angle seems more natural from someone who grew up in the wartime Austria.

 

[Wanderling]

I once read somewhere that the designs behind grip designs vary a lot.

What it boiled down to was this:
The Glock has a grip angle more like holding a fencing sword-type-tool, because european ergonomics are more accustomed to holding a weapon like that, where the TT33 and Makarov angle are more like punching at the target and the 1911 style angle is like pointing at a target.

I'll buy the TT33 and 1911 angles for sure, but I haven't shot Glocks well enough to really comment on that.

I don't think TT and Makarov angles are the same. TT almost feels "90 deg". I only fired it once (someone gave me their Chinese knock-off at a range) and for me to even point it at a target, without acquiring sights, I would have to raise it nearly to the eye level. With Glock, I can point fairly accurately with gun just above the hip level. I think TT was designed more for the target-style shooter taking deliberate aim while holding the gun in one hand in a dueling stance.

 

[Wanderling]

"I think the Glock grip angle feels "unnatural" simply because people are by then used to shooting other guns & habitually raise Glock too high at first."

Maybe all wrists and hands aren't the same. Could be. Maybe my hand is more like JMB's than Mr. Glock's.

John

Yes, this is a valid point.

 

[Nushif]

I think TT was designed more for the target-style shooter taking deliberate aim while holding the gun in one hand in a dueling stance.

Interesting!
Because when I shoot my Chinese knockoff (You weren't in Oregon, were you? I hand mine off a lot. 8)) I really just have to point my fist at whatever I want to hit.
Which kinda leads me to believe that rounds downrange with any given grip angle are a bit more indicative of what "feels right" than the actual angle.

 

[Ramone]

I fired my first centerfire weapon, an M1911A1, at age 8, using a strand of barb wire as a rest (I used a 'baseball-bat' grip- my support hand on the grip below my strong-side hand).

My dad, and all my uncles owned 1911s for the most part- I remember a wheel gun or two, and a High Power, but the 1911 was _the_ handgun.

With the exception of a Bren Ten, up until about 4 years ago, I never owned any handgun that was not a 1911 pattern pistol ( there was an AMT Longslide, and a frankengun Street Master in the mix, but that's about as varied as my collection got).

Currently, my small collection includes an AO 1911 Thompson Custom, a Colt Officers ACP, a Kahr PM9, and a GLOCK17 (and a NAA .22lr revolver, but that's my cat's gun).

I really only bought the GLOCK to go with my SUB2000.

My brother didn't speak to me for a month after I told him (it was a kinda peaceful month). My dad looked like I told him that I had bought a toy poodle and started drinking hard (which he does most days). My mother wept. My sister assured me, "not that there's anything wrong with that..." .

I've got 550 rounds through it in the past few months. It's a nice pistol. I *do* drift a little high with it in rapid fire strings, but it's nothing I can't overcome, and at closing distance, I'd still make hits I could call COM.

My EDC is still a 1911 (it's sunday, so I am carrying the full size as I type). I don't see that changing. But yanno?

It's a nice pistol. It doesn't speak to me as a 1911 does, but I sure wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers.

My name is Ramone, and I own both a 1911 and a GLOCK.

can't we all just get along?

The thickness of the grip feels a little odd when I notice it, but I

 

[stonecutter2]

Best feeling grip I've had on a pistol was my S&W Sigma 9mm - felt absolutely perfect. The Glock is a close 2nd.

When I close my hand and hold it outwards, my hand is angled relative to my wrist - they aren't perpendicular to each other. That angle seems to be why holding a Glock or Sigma work well for me.

As someone else said, people have different ergonomics.

I like the punching vs. pointing thing someone else mentioned - that's interesting.

 

[45_auto]

I bet those standard Ruger .22 semi-autos really tortured a lot of you guys for what, 50 years or so? Mine looks like it has about twice the grip angle of my Glock. Bet it made your day when they came out with the 22/45!

I shoot about 1,000 rounds/week through predominantly 1911's, Glocks, and Rugers. Can't say I pay any attention to the grip angle on any of them, they all put the bullet where the sights point.