Glock grip angle - no flaming please !

[JRH6856]

I bet those standard Ruger .22 semi-autos really tortured a lot of you guys for what, 50 years or so?

As a atter of fact, it does, but not as much as a Glock which puzzled me until I compared the height of the curve at the top of the backstrap (the tang) relative to the trigger. The Glock is higher. The Ruger Std. is lower and very close to the 1911 even though the grip is angled more.

 

[coolluke01]

I think the main point of the OP is being missed.

He, as a unbiased new shooter, picked the glock as the most natural. Could it be that "old" shooters are simply used to what they have always shot?

The Glock hump and grip angle are a issue for many because it's different.

As a long time S&W model 59 shooter, I saw the light and changed to the Glock. I have learned a great deal about how much better the Glock grip angle is. Rolling the wrists forward to their extreme point provides a more stable base than holding the wrist at a point in the middle of the wrists range of movement.

This will not "feel" good or natural to many shooters because they are not used to it. It is however a better system. I wouldn't say that everyone should change to Glocks. Many have been doing something for so long that change is not really possible. For those that can still change or new shooters I would steer them to the Glock.

I know many will not like that I think the Glock angle is better. Better is a subjective term. For my purposes, the Glock angle is more stable, easier to resist recoil and allows for faster followup shots.

I like my Glocks better than any other guns. Subjective.

Glock's grip angle allows for the most stable hold of any handgun. Fact.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The Glock has a grip angle more like holding a fencing sword-type-tool, because european ergonomics are more accustomed to holding a weapon like that, where the TT33 and Makarov angle are more like punching at the target and the 1911 style angle is like pointing at a target.

Almost. The 1911 grip angle is based on how Americans grip a hammer or baseball bat...with the wrist straighten and locked in a punch. The European angle is more relaxed, with the top of the forearm creating a line extending over the top of the relaxed thumb

Does anyone have insight in exactly why Gaston Glock chose the grip angle of his design?

Was it based on research on which angle is the best or "just because."

It was based on research as Glock had never built a handgun before the G17 and had no prior knowledge or bias.

The angle is most often seen on very accurate handguns...Olympic competition pistols

 

[Nushif]

Not bad for my failing memory! I knew there was some sort of reasoning to the angles.

 

[tomrkba]

The trick is to learn how to shoot regardless of make or model of the handgun you have. The whole grip angle argument is just a crutch. You overcome grip angle every time you use the sights. Glocks point high for me and 1911's point low. SIG's point quite well for me. Either way, it does not matter. Your skill level should be such that you're able to learn a new gun's behavior under recoil very quickly (within a magazine or two).

They make "Official Cryin' Towels" that lists at least 20 excuses. I prefer to use that rather than blame the gun for my poor performance.

 

[sgtstryker]

So, when the Marine Corps handed me a 1911 and said qualify with this, I had to learn to shoot it well enough to earn an Expert badge. Now, they have the Beretta, after my time, and the grip angle is much different to me, I've owned and shot two models. My point is that we learn to shoot what we have in our hands, be it rifle, shotgun, pistol or slingshot. Preferences aside, I believe we can learn to shoot most anything we want. But, there was a Ruger Vaquero that I couldn't hit squat with, but that's another story.

 

[larryh1108]

I started with a 1911. I had to have a Glock. I bought a Glock. I didn't like how it felt so I sold the Glock. A few years later I figured I was hasty and bought another Glock. Less than a year later I sold the Glock. I wanted to like the Glock but I could not become one with it.

Whoever said hands are different is right on. I have large, meaty hands. My "pad" below my thumb is pretty meaty and I think this is why me and Glocks don't get along. If your pad is small or flat then I'm sure the Glock feels good. For those of us who have that meaty pad I believe Glocks won't feel natural. That wide hump combined with the thick meat on my hand don't mesh. Just my opinion based on personal experience.

 

[JRH6856]

The whole grip angle argument is just a crutch. You overcome grip angle every time you use the sights.

Well, yes. But out to 20 yards I'm not using sights for my first shot and within 10 yards, I'm probably not using sights for any shot. My focus is on the target and I want the shot to go where I am looking. That means the gun must point naturally at my point of focus. If there is time to acquire and align a sight picture for subsequent shots, fine, but I want my first shot to go where I am looking without aiming.

 

[Rexster]

There is more to the fit equation than just grip angle. A 1911 with a flat MSH points well for me, but so does a 3rd-generation Glock, a SIG P229/228/226, all modern S&W DA revolvers, Ruger GP100 and SP101 revolvers, SAA-pattern sixguns, and the P220 with the "European" magazine release, in spite of some variance in grip angles. Pre-3rd-generations Glocks to point a bit off for me, as does the FN Five Seven and the P220 with the "American" mag release system.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Well, yes. But out to 20 yards I'm not using sights for my first shot and within 10 yards, I'm probably not using sights for any shot. My focus is on the target and I want the shot to go where I am looking. That means the gun must point naturally at my point of focus. If there is time to acquire and align a sight picture for subsequent shots, fine, but I want my first shot to go where I am looking without aiming.

Glocks don't work for YOU. Wise of you to move to a different type of gun.

How accurate are you, point-shooting out to 60 feet? I wonder if that first shot is just wasted?

I've been around a lot of talented shooters, over the years, including some who have had a good bit of special training (Special Ops, etc.) and believe that good hits at 20 yards without aiming is quite an achievement -- particularly if both YOU and the target are moving. It can be an achievement with aimed fire when both are moving!

At 10' it's different, but even a bad grip angle can be overcome at that distance.

At distances between 10' and 30' I can see point shooting and then aimed fire. Chances are you'd be point shooting even if you were TRYING to use the sights. <grin>

Some years back we used a lot of moving targets (typically at 40'-50') in our IDPA club scenarios, and even some high-level IPSC shooters (who shot with us for fun) missed a lot when both they and the targets were moving. I hope I'm not standing still if I find myself in a shootout.


.

 

[mgmorden]

I think a bit much is made over it.

I've got a Gen2 Glock 17. If I pick it up after holding one of my other guns - yes, the grip feels uncomfortable - that said, it's not THAT bad and I don't notice it after I get shooting.

So yeah, if I was designing a gun from scatch I'd take a different route, but its certainly not a "make or break" thing for me. All guns have negatives.

Overall I'm mostly neutral on Glocks. There's nothing wrong with them and they're good, reliable guns. That said, IMHO they also don't do anything that a dozen other brands on the market today don't also do just as well.

 

[foghornl]

The Glocks are darn fine pistols, but I find the grip angle is a bit ahhhhhh "odd" to me.

I prefer a 1911-A1.

Your Mileage Will Vary

 

[GLOOB]

I think some people are not giving the Glock (17/19) grip angle a fair shake. It's not all in the wrist, alone. To shoot a Glock 19, I hunch my head down to acquire the sight picture. When shooting a 1911, I keep my head straighter/taller. If you keep your head tall, a Glock 19 will point somewhat high, and you'll have to cock the gun a bit downwards, which actually puts the bore out of alignment with your arm so you're not getting the full benefit of the low bore axis. With a 1911, if you hunch your head too low, you may have to cock your wrist up a little bit, which puts some tension in your grip and can affect your accuracy. So be sure to play around with your head position when you're shooting different guns before you discount their true potential.

For all the naysayers, try this next time you pick up a Glock. Point it at the target first. Then see if you can move your eye to align with the sights, instead of manipulating the gun to line up with your eye. Then give that stance a try for a few strings.

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv241/gloob27x/gripanglepic.jpg

Here's an exaggerated illustration showing the effect of head height on the angle between the bore and your arms. You can see that in the right pic, the recoil will go more straight back into your arms. In the left pic, the recoil will cause more upward lift in the arms. When you achieve the right side pic with a Glock 19 and get used to the trigger, that's when the magic starts to happen. Just make sure your wallet is ready to pay for the ammo.

 

[FruitCake]

I have no angle problems with any pistol out there. They're all different in some form, I just adjust like I do at work with different vehicles.
This whole angle thing is just silly.

 

[JohnKSa]

...out to 20 yards I'm not using sights for my first shot...

That's pretty impressive. What's your hit ratio/score for the first shot and your average time-to-first hit (not first shot) using that technique?

 

[bbuddtec]

I'm thinking "natural grip angle" can be in direct relevance to the weight balance of that particular object as much as any...

 

[5150]

Glocks are made to be used with the option of having gloves on. Bare handed your fit will be sub par (gen 4s might be better?) but a sub par fitting Glock is still better than throwing rocks.

 

[JRH6856]

...out to 20 yards I'm not using sights for my first shot...

That's pretty impressive. What's your hit ratio/score for the first shot and your average time-to-first hit (not first shot) using that technique?

John,

I don't really know the time to first hit as I haven't timed it recently. Accuracy is 100% inside of 15 yards and 98% out to 20. At 25 it drops to 95% and that is not acceptable. The goal is a torso hit with the first shot. 30 years ago under practice conditions, I could hit 100% at 25 yards in a second or less (stopwatch timing) but age is slowing me down a bit and maybe my hands aren't quite as steady. I can no longer make what I consider a reliable shot at 25 yards without sights and If I can't get the 20 yard accuracy up to 100%, I'll have to start using sights at that distance as well.

 

[Fishslayer]

Meh... I've only fired Gen 3 19 & 17. Both were OK. I have fairly large hands & they fit me pretty well. Definitely a personal thing. Only way to know for sure is to try 'em out.

I actually liked the G19. Too bad I have zero interest in the Austrian koolade!

 

[kmbrman]

I've owned a Sig 226 a Ruger P89 a 1911, and other pistols as well, and could adapt to them all. FWIW, I do think the compacts 19 - 23 etc. are more 1911 like in the angle and may feel better to most shooters.

 

[jmorris]

The trick is to learn how to shoot regardless of make or model of the handgun you have.

I wouldn't say "trick" but "key". Maybe one of the best things I learned on my way to 5 gun master in idpa is that with practice it doesn't matter what kind of gun it is as long as it runs 100% and I do my part. To say something as small as grip angle throws off your capability really says more about your abilities than that of any given firearm.

 

[Ky Larry]

Glocks don't work for me. However, I'm not everyone so choose what works for you. You may find your likes and dislikes changing over the years.Try to shoot as many pistols and revolvers as possible before you put down your $$$.

 

[JohnKSa]

Accuracy is 100% inside of 15 yards and 98% out to 20. At 25 it drops to 95% and that is not acceptable.

How much do you shoot?

 

[JRH6856]

^^^ I get to the range on average about once a week for 300 rounds. Some days I spend more time on speed drills than others. Depends on whether I'm working up new loads.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Accuracy is 100% inside of 15 yards and 98% out to 20. At 25 it drops to 95% and that is not acceptable.

What does "Accuracy is 100%" mean, for you? What is an "accurate" shot at those distances?

But, regardless, that is quite impressive. Darned few shooters I've met, watched, or competed against would make that claim for their rapid, unsighted fire. You must be an exceptional shooter.