Tell me about AR-style .22s...

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I bought an M&P 15-22 for my daughter. My first impressions was "this light thing feels like a cheap toy", but after shooting it I'm pretty jealous I don't have one for myself. It runs everything we put through it and I've come to enjoy the lightness of the gun.

I also have a SIG 522, which isn't an AR platform but is somewhat similar. It has the heft of the "real" SIG 556, and mine is accurate and reliable. It uses Black Dog magazines, which is what most of the AR .22 conversions also use. The mags are reliable and well built, but in comparing them to the M&P 15-22 mags you can appreciate the thought S&W put into them. Sure, they're proprietary, but they also have thumb studs which let you pull down the followers to easily load them without your fingers getting sore after a few mags. Every now and then I get an itch to build a dedicated .22 upper, but then I think of how fun my daughters M&P is and ask my self why I would spend $400+ on an upper, when I can just get the 15-22 for $350 or so.
 
Since every major .22 option has been covered, allow me to be totally tangential and ask: What is the training value of having a .22?

In my case as a suburbanite without my own land, I can't shoot .22 without already going to a range at which point I might as well shoot centerfire cartridges, so... not much. I do have a 9mm upper for IDPA and slightly discounted shooting, but for introductory safety stuff for kids, and to practice around my house I have an airsoft (gas blowback, so all the controls work like a real gun), and a SIRT bolt I can drop into any of my actual carbines, so I can shoot little lasers at anything I want. Dirt cheap to nearly-free per shot costs, and high to near-total safety.

Just an option. Tangent ended.
 
Tippman M4-22, watch some videos and reviews of one of these before making your decision.
 
I've got the S&W 15-22, and, I've got to say, I'm pretty impressed. Controls operate very similarly to an AR, the 25 round mags and a McFadden loader make loading a breeze, and with a good scope, we regularly shoot golf balls off tees at 50 yards, then go back and shoot the tees. Good ammo seems to help a lot.
 
shoobe01 said:
Since every major .22 option has been covered, allow me to be totally tangential and ask: What is the training value of having a .22?

In my case as a suburbanite without my own land, I can't shoot .22 without already going to a range at which point I might as well shoot centerfire cartridges, so... not much. I do have a 9mm upper for IDPA and slightly discounted shooting, but for introductory safety stuff for kids, and to practice around my house I have an airsoft (gas blowback, so all the controls work like a real gun), and a SIRT bolt I can drop into any of my actual carbines, so I can shoot little lasers at anything I want. Dirt cheap to nearly-free per shot costs, and high to near-total safety.

Just an option. Tangent ended.
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For me? Cheap fun. I DEARLY wish I could just shoot in the back property but those days are long gone. Still always take at least one .22 on my weekly range trips. It's cheap, and fun. ALL trigger time is good. Even air guns help a lot and those you can do at home.
Now days many conversions are there for people who want to use the same gun they rely on to practice with using .22. Much of the center fire ammo is real hard to find now days. For those who do not roll their own you can still easily buy .22 ammo without paying scalper price for cheap practice and just plain fun.
 
shoobe01 said:
Since every major .22 option has been covered, allow me to be totally tangential and ask: What is the training value of having a .22?
5.
In my case as a suburbanite without my own land, I can't shoot .22 without already going to a range at which point I might as well shoot centerfire cartridges, so... not much. I do have a 9mm upper for IDPA and slightly discounted shooting, but for introductory safety stuff for kids, and to practice around my house I have an airsoft (gas blowback, so all the controls work like a real gun), and a SIRT bolt I can drop into any of my actual carbines, so I can shoot little lasers at anything I want. Dirt cheap to nearly-free per shot costs, and high to near-total safety.

Just an option. Tangent ended.
Click to expand...
Cheaper ammo. More available ammo, usually anyway. Since 5.56 recoil is negligible, you're getting 99% of the experience for a fraction of the cost. Also less wear if you're shooting steel targets.
 
I have a CMMG stainless conversion. I'm sure I tried it sometime in the past, but sounds like I need to dig it out and try again.
I bought a dedicated 16" lightweight upper not too long ago and it's amazing. It will darn near shoot with my Kimber 82G with CCI standard velocity. Bugholes at 50 yards and flawless with the Blackdog mags.
 
Cemetery21 said:
I have a CMMG stainless conversion. I'm sure I tried it sometime in the past, but sounds like I need to dig it out and try again.
I bought a dedicated 16" lightweight upper not too long ago and it's amazing. It will darn near shoot with my Kimber 82G with CCI standard velocity. Bugholes at 50 yards and flawless with the Blackdog mags.
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CMMG pretty much perfected the old Ciener design. While they normally will work great, as in function, the problem is always using .22LR in and upper with a twist for .223/556. It's not normally horrible but it's normal for the accuracy to be poor enough that most will certainly see it. Now of course if it's just for some cheap fun? Most can just live with it since you do get the cheap fun. I just warn people talking about buying one (the conversion) that they have to have realistic expectations.
 
Alex Clayton said:
CMMG pretty much perfected the old Ciener design. While they normally will work great, as in function, the problem is always using .22LR in and upper with a twist for .223/556. It's not normally horrible but it's normal for the accuracy to be poor enough that most will certainly see it. Now of course if it's just for some cheap fun? Most can just live with it since you do get the cheap fun. I just warn people talking about buying one (the conversion) that they have to have realistic expectations.
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And to add to what he said. A 1-12 twist will be better than a 1-9 or faster twist for shooting 22lr with a conversion kit. 22lr is a funny little round and sometime guys find a type of 22lr ammo that does shoot quite well in a 1-9 or 1-7 twist. Normally you will get better accuracy with a dedicated 1-16 twist barrel though.

I had to use conversion kits a few times while in the Army and they definitely were not as accurate as a dedicated barrel. Some of it was the 22lr ammo that the Army used.
 
Our team had to shoot qualification targets for a combat rifle match one year. All we had access to was an indoor range and time was short. This was back when we had M16 A1s - 20" barrels and I don't remember what twist. We used the rimfire adapters and I was very surprised at how well they shot. The official targets were resized for the length of the indoor range (I don't remember the distance). The modified 300 meter target was about the size of your little finger nail, but we were able to get consistent hits even with open sights back then.
Oh, we won the actual match but got disqualified since our team captain decided to shoot his civilian AR. A RO noticed it when he had an alibi on the 300 line. :eek:
 
Cemetery21 said:
Our team had to shoot qualification targets for a combat rifle match one year. All we had access to was an indoor range and time was short. This was back when we had M16 A1s - 20" barrels and I don't remember what twist. We used the rimfire adapters and I was very surprised at how well they shot. The official targets were resized for the length of the indoor range (I don't remember the distance). The modified 300 meter target was about the size of your little finger nail, but we were able to get consistent hits even with open sights back then.
Oh, we won the actual match but got disqualified since our team captain decided to shoot his civilian AR. A RO noticed it when he had an alibi on the 300 line. :eek:
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The M16A1 has a 1-12 twist which will shoot better than the M16A2 with a 1-7 twist when using a 22lr conversion kit. I used a conversion kit with both while I was in the Army and the A1 definitely shot better than the A2 did. And if you were on a shooting team, I'm sure you had good ammo available to you.
 
Yes, the ammo - I've always wondered what it was. Plain white box, no ID anywhere except the headstamp was big W for winchester and they always had a lot number on the inside of the end flap. We shot the same ammo in smallbore. We had 40X rimfires and some units had Win 52s. 390s out of 400 possible was done regularly.
 
12Bravo20 said:
The M16A1 has a 1-12 twist which will shoot better than the M16A2 with a 1-7 twist when using a 22lr conversion kit. I used a conversion kit with both while I was in the Army and the A1 definitely shot better than the A2 did. And if you were on a shooting team, I'm sure you had good ammo available to you.
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Never thought of trying this, I do have an original 1:12 twist on my retro build. Will compare with my FNH 1:7 someday
 
I bought a 25 round magazine for my Ruger 10-22, so I wouldn't have to load magazines for my grandkids so often...WRONG! All of a sudden, they turned rifle shooting into "machine-gun shooting" and I was loading that darned magazine constantly! It's put away and I have no intention of taking it out again!!!
 
Picher said:
It's put away and I have no intention of taking it out again!!
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Let’s not get too hasty. Did they have fun?
Do you have yard work that needs done?
Fence or siding washing?

I know, maybe not now, in this time of famine, but don’t throw it away, maybe get a metronome and grade them on timing as well as precision. Rimfire will come back. No worries, friend!
Now if they were unsafe that’s one thing, but if they were just loving it, please, don’t hold it against them.:thumbup:

Machine guns are cool too, papa.:(

Maybe if you burn it out of them now they’ll be over it when they get an AR...;)
 
I don't know of any AR's purpose built to use mags that don't fit the standard AR magwell. Maybe there will be a day when someone makes a .22 AR based off the Glock pattern AR lowers or maybe somebody will make an adapter to fit into a standard lower's magwell and allow it to use 10/22 mags or other .22 mags.

For now if you want a .22 AR, you're stuck with gargantuan magazines that only hold 25 rds or something.

The one benefit of a .22 AR is you don't need the buffer tube, so you can have a folding stock or brace. You also get a huge selection of great triggers, plus the free float handguard.

I'd rather have my braced Charger pistol, even tho its reliability with the 15 and 25 rd mags is suspect. The 10 rd mags are small and very reliable. My hope is that Kel Tec either comes out with an adapter for AR's to use their CP33 magazine or makes a rifle that uses their CP magazines.

I use to not get the idea of a .22 rifle that's not built from the ground up to be a .22, but the AR is popular and when it comes to .22's it's hard to argue against that which is most popular solely for the ease of getting parts, magazines, or accessories.
 
armedwalleye said:
I've got the S&W 15-22, and, I've got to say, I'm pretty impressed. Controls operate very similarly to an AR, the 25 round mags and a McFadden loader make loading a breeze, and with a good scope, we regularly shoot golf balls off tees at 50 yards, then go back and shoot the tees. Good ammo seems to help a lot.
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Don't the golfers object to you doing that when they're trying to get in 18 holes?
 
Golfers waste perfectly good shooting ranges anyway, so they have it coming.:p
No, I respect their right to their sport, just have never hit a golf ball with anything but a bullet myself.
 
Cemetery21 said:
Golfers waste perfectly good shooting ranges anyway, so they have it coming.:p
No, I respect their right to their sport, just have never hit a golf ball with anything but a bullet myself.
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If you think hitting golf balls with a 22lr is fun, try shooting them with either the 17m2 or 17HMR.

As far as 22lr AR magazines, you can get 10 and 15 round mags that are the same length as a 5.56 20 round magazine. The shorter 10 and 15 round mags work great for shooting form a rest/bench. I like having a 22lr version of my centerfires. They are great for training/trigger time especially if set up the same as your centerfire gun. My 22lr AR is currently setup very similar to my precision 223 and 308 AR rifles.
 
I have a dedicated CMMG 22LR upper and the system just works. Once I realized my lighter hammer spring wasn't doing me justice the thing has gone thousands of rounds without a hiccup. I once went over 1K rounds without cleaning just to see if it would eventually choke, it didn't.
 
Demi-human said:
Let’s not get too hasty. Did they have fun?
Do you have yard work that needs done?
Fence or siding washing?

I know, maybe not now, in this time of famine, but don’t throw it away, maybe get a metronome and grade them on timing as well as precision. Rimfire will come back. No worries, friend!
Now if they were unsafe that’s one thing, but if they were just loving it, please, don’t hold it against them.:thumbup:

Machine guns are cool too, papa.:(

Maybe if you burn it out of them now they’ll be over it when they get an AR...;)
Click to expand...

I don't hold it against them. They're older now, the youngest just graduated from high school. He's the one I re-built a Rem 721 for a while back and killed a deer with it that season. The youngest is in the 8th grade and in Massachusetts, so she only gets the chance to shoot when in Maine. I had her shooting my Beretta .22LR handgun the last time they came and she had a blast!

We got more serious with her mom and sisters. The mom recently passed her concealed-carry permit shooting test with the best score of the class, (including her Mass.-bred, decent-shooting husband).
 
TTv2 said:
I don't know of any AR's purpose built to use mags that don't fit the standard AR magwell. Maybe there will be a day when someone makes a .22 AR based off the Glock pattern AR lowers or maybe somebody will make an adapter to fit into a standard lower's magwell and allow it to use 10/22 mags or other .22 mags.

For now if you want a .22 AR, you're stuck with gargantuan magazines that only hold 25 rds or something.

The one benefit of a .22 AR is you don't need the buffer tube, so you can have a folding stock or brace. You also get a huge selection of great triggers, plus the free float handguard.

I'd rather have my braced Charger pistol, even tho its reliability with the 15 and 25 rd mags is suspect. The 10 rd mags are small and very reliable. My hope is that Kel Tec either comes out with an adapter for AR's to use their CP33 magazine or makes a rifle that uses their CP magazines.

I use to not get the idea of a .22 rifle that's not built from the ground up to be a .22, but the AR is popular and when it comes to .22's it's hard to argue against that which is most popular solely for the ease of getting parts, magazines, or accessories.
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When you're using it as a trainer, you want those big mags so it feels exactly like reloading a centerfire.

There is a new AR derivative that uses 10/22 mags but I forget who makes it.
 
I have had your thoughts many times about the SIG or S&W.
If the rifle became inoperable you can use the lower as regular AR15 platform.
 
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