DeShaney vs. Winnebago and Town of Castle Rock vs. Gonzales, the supreme court has ruled that police agencies are not obligated to provide protection of citizens. Since I’m just a lay person, ask Frank.
My home invasion last night. What are the odds?
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You sure can. As long as that “something” falls under a statutory law permitting such a response and there is precedent. It’s called “stare decisis”. It’s the whole premise of a precedent. That the law must be applied equally.
If what you’re saying is true, then precedent means nothing. And if what you’re saying is true, then that also means that what you’re saying may also not be true.
See how absurd this becomes?
That is true. Do you know what it means?
Hint: It means that the community may not be found liable for damages resulting from a crime that was not prevented by police. That's it.
No. One may lawfully prevent, but one may not punish.
The rest of that is irrelevant gibberish.
I hate to put it quite this way, but it is very evident that you do not know what you are talking about.
You can say I’m wrong all you want. But until you prove I’m wrong, which you haven’t even begun to do, you saying I don’t know what I’m talking about means....nothing.
I’ve provided case law. I’ve provided statutory law. You haven’t provided anything but conjecture and now pejorative statements directed towards me.
Again:In DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, 489 U.S. 189 (1989), the U.S. Supreme Court held that the only duties of care required by the Constitution are those extended to individuals who are restrained by the government and therefore unable to protect themselves. This includes prisoners and involuntarily committed mental patients.
Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of App. 1981)”fundamental principle of American law is that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen.
So you go ahead and “may and might” that one all you want. But that clearly states that the officer had no duty to protect Jimmy if he was in my home and my dog was attacking him. A moral duty? Sure. I’ll buy that. A legal duty? Nope.
So a precedent is irrelevant gibberish. That’s interesting. Because the above cases were precedent. And have been used as precedent.
You’re past the point of playing devil’s advocate. You’re to the point now you just have to win. You have to be smarter than the nurse who went to college to be a cop. Telling the guy who’s home was invaded and thought enough that something that could have gone horribly wrong, ended without incident, that he needs to think? That’s rich. Well, here you go. Enjoy
Every cop should write a book. I know my dad and brother could. It’s every bit as bizarre as working psych. I’ve heard the stories and I’ve seen it first hand on ride alongs. You don’t even have to embellish. The truth is hard enough to believe.
P5 Guy
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At 8:45PM my doors will be locked.
We have disucced that subject here at great length during the past decades.
Again, what they mean is that the government cannot be held liable for losses incurred as the result of criminal by another party.
That is as it must be. The police cannot be everywhere at once.
They do not mean that police officers are not authorized or expected tp intervene and use force as necessary to protect a citizen from harm.
That means that if a person or animal is harming another person, the officer must and will act to prevent it.
No.
What is gibberish is the idea that a citizen may employ deadly force because someone has done something, rather than to prevent certain actions when immediately necessary.
You will find abundant precedent supporting that, and nothing in statute or at common law that says otherwise.
Stare decisis is a term used to summarize a court decision. It means "the prior decision stands".
FL-NC
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That's just nuts. I try to stay calm and focused, but the whole thing probably would have got my genie out of the bottle. While the whole regrettable mess should have never happened in the first place, the silver lining is that someone of your background had a better understanding of the situation and ID'd the deputy. I'm not sure that would have prevented me from acting very negatively in my own house at the time. Hope the ladies are doing better.
Like I said, I can’t fathom the odds for it to have played out so perfectly. People here often speculate what they would do in a home invasion. I admit, things didn’t go down how I anticipated a home invasion to go. Not even close. And honestly, I’m glad they didn’t. So my response was also not what I envisioned it would be. This could have been so bad for all parties involved and likely would have been had he not chosen this exact house. We never know what we will do until it happens. Now I know at least how I reacted this time. Odds are I will never be faced with this situation again. I won’t change how I live. I won’t succumb to fear. The reality is it was a perfect mistake (oxymoron).
The girls are great. They were perfectly fine the next day. Riding their bikes in the road, playing with the puppies, and going to the neighbors houses. Life was back to normal.
Certainly a disconcerting situation, and it's good that it turned out okay.
I have had two home invasions, one involving explicit threats of murder, and two attempts. That kind of thing can impact sleep patterns for a day or two.
I have had two home invasions, one involving explicit threats of murder, and two attempts. That kind of thing can impact sleep patterns for a day or two.
It sure could. Did you ever give an in-depth account, like mine, of the events? I’d be very interested to read the background, how the events transpired, the reaction, the reason for your reaction, and the outcome. Obviously it will be a much different story than the one I told just by your previous post. If you didn’t and don’t want to, that’s fine. I have no desire to Monday morning quarterback anything.
No.
If you didn’t and don’t want to, that’s fine.
For reasons described in one of our Sticky threads, it is very imprudent to post such accounts in public.
[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/read-before-posting-legal-considerations-of-posting-on-the-internet.604948/"]Read before Posting: Legal Considerations of Posting on the Internet[/URL]
In your case, I see little risk, but do read the Sticky.
But when one has chased off a then-old intruder in 1964 and no one was hurt....
Disguised details:
- Man tries back door, even though the car is in the driveway. Locked. Starts breaking in. He sees a revolver and rethinks his plan for the evening.
- Man follows woman asking to use phone into house. Attacks woman and knocks my mother to the floor. With potential hostages out of his reach, Smith, Wesson and I enter the room. He leaves.
- Man tries every door and window to enter remote mountain cabin. Car parked outside. There is no phone. He finally gains entry. The very stoned, hairy Hippie, naked except for a headband with a peace sign on it, politely complies with my suggestion that he depart. Col. Colt had made us equal.
old lady new shooter
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G-d gave you this experience to use to teach others. Which you are doing by posting it here. And I likewise encourage you to meet with the sheriff as you mentioned.
NOTE: Usually members are advised not to post HD experiences for reasons I think are in a sticky, but in this case since you didn't have to physically engage I personally think it's different, there doesn't seem to be any chance of you being prosecuted for anything so no worries about unwitting self-incrimination.
old lady new shooter
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old lady new shooter
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My doors are locked 24/7, even though I currently live in a very low-crime town in Arizona. Leftover habit from living in L.A. which I thank G-d every day I escaped.
old lady new shooter
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Seems to me that any reasonable person would fear much more for his or her life when the person who already entered the home without permission just shot the family pet.
Physical engagement would not be necessary to result in difficulty.
Threats, or the display or even the mention of any kind of weapon, could suffice.
I agree that there seems to be little problem in the "this happened to me " story, but that's a guess. I've seen very innocuous-seeming things turn into
Should the poster ever get into a scrape in the future, or should his dog cause any injuries, there are statements in the tread that could, taken in isolation and out of context (and that's the way it's done), be used by a plaintiff or a prosecutor to try to show a predisposition for violence, or for not properly controlling an animal.. I would not try to quantify that risk. Let's hope that that day never comes.
The obvious lesson here, I think, and the OP knows this, is to try to avoid situations that could lead to finding a man standing in the living room. That can be a terrible shock.
It would be scary enough to have the electrician's assistant bring parts for a job next door come into your house instead.
And so the defense would surely try to argue.
Evidence of knowledge that the dog had been attacking someone and had been shot because of that would be very damaging, however.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
Didn't read past the OP but I have to wonder how a stranger got in your home.
I live pretty rural but we still keep cars and the doors to the house locked, all the time.
If I walked around the corner of my house to find a stranger there (unlikely given our security and location) they are at a minimum getting held at gun point. Yes, I ALWAYS have a gun on me.
Personally I would reevaluate your HD barriers/practices.
That being said, given what actually happened you certainly got lucky. Glad things worked out for you.
I live pretty rural but we still keep cars and the doors to the house locked, all the time.
If I walked around the corner of my house to find a stranger there (unlikely given our security and location) they are at a minimum getting held at gun point. Yes, I ALWAYS have a gun on me.
Personally I would reevaluate your HD barriers/practices.
That being said, given what actually happened you certainly got lucky. Glad things worked out for you.
How would evidence that a dog, protecting his family from an intruder, inside the home, be damaging in the scenario? It’s kind of what dogs were bred to do. Hunt, protect, attack (war). If you would fight to protect your home and family, it’s not unreasonable that an animal bred for that purpose would do the same.
Had this been an invasion with use of force, I would not have posted. I know how attorneys work. Each side has a job to do. And sometimes it’s ugly work. It’s just the nature of the beast.
It would pertain to the argument that the deputy who had shot the dog was justified in doing so, and that a reasonable person would not have believed the deputy to have constituted a threat.
Society and the law take a very dim view of dogs that bite people, indoors or out. Owners are responsible for controlling dogs, and for not owning dangerous ones.
Where I live, a dog is allowed on and only one minor bite before it is destroyed. Ans yes, one would expect a fog to try to get at a delivery person at the front door.
Had the dog interfered wit a violet attacker and saved the family, the dog might be a hero, but that was not the scenario described
I don’t disagree that the deputy shooting my dog under the described scenario would have been justified. But under the described scenario, remember, there’s a 12’ entry way (fatal funnel) from the front door to my living room. I see my dog attacking Jimmy, hear the gunshot, and my dog falls. I cannot see the front door. From where I’m standing, I can see maybe 3’ of the opposing entry way hall I’m facing while I’m looking at Jimmy. I think I haven’t described the layout of the house as well as I could have because I didn’t anticipate this discussion. I’m going to take a picture and set this up (crudely) like an attorney would for presentation.
Ok. So in the picture, the light blue stripe represents the kitchen where I was when I heard Jimmy call out. The yellow stripe is the bedroom with my pistol just inside the door. The picture was taken from the laundry room which also has a door just inside it going into the garage. The “X” is where I was standing when I first saw Jimmy, the arrow pointing down is approx where Jimmy was standing. Maybe a little to the right. The arrow pointing left is the start of the 12’ entry way to the front door. As you can see, I cannot see the front door. Not even close. The deputy was standing outside the front door. So if we (we kind of have to) play this scenario from the positions it actually played out, you can clearly see how I wouldn’t know where the shot came from. And I also wouldn’t be able to identify that deputy. I didn’t even see the deputy until I was within arms reach of Jimmy. Also, you have to remember another key element in the defense...I clearly stated that we have kids in and out all the time. And since my dog hasn’t attacked any of the kids, he knows who is supposed to be there and who isn’t. He’s not a vicious dog. He’s territorial and protective. He doesn’t have the propensity for aggression. He has the propensity to protect his home. It’s a character trait of the breed. And there’s a difference between aggression and protection.
I really don't think it prudent to try to detain anyone. That has been discussed here at grat length
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Keep doors locked at all times and train children to not open for strangers... ever.
No matter where you are, or what your perceived skills.... the front door is a critical line of defense.
I'm glad all ended well and respect and appreciate your decision not to go all Kathy on the officers.
No matter where you are, or what your perceived skills.... the front door is a critical line of defense.
I'm glad all ended well and respect and appreciate your decision not to go all Kathy on the officers.
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