My girlfriend was followed last night...

[Joe Link]

My girlfriend works in downtown Portland and I either take her and pick her up or she takes the bus and/or MAX (light rail) because it costs over $9/day to park down there. She's a small girl, 5'3 about 100-105lbs.

Last night she was taking the MAX from downtown to the stop where I usually pick her up and she got to the stop before me. She got off the MAX and noticed a seedy looking man followed her off. He got out one door down in the direction she had to walk to get where she needed to be, forcing her to walk past him as they were going in opposite directions. As they were about to pass he moved into her path, as to 'intercept' her. She moved left to go around him and he moved left, she moved right and he moved right. This wasn't like when you get in that wierd little dance when there's only a couple feet between yourself and someone else, there were at least five feet. As he passed her he said something she couldn't understand. She felt like she might be in danger so she called me right away and I stayed on the phone during this whole thing. She didn't feel safe on the MAX platform because there weren't any cars or people in the area, just this guy, so she started walking to a more populated/better lit area as I always tell her to do if she feels like she might be in danger. The guy walked down to the end of the platform then turned around and began following her. At first he was around a block behind her but was quickly gaining on her (walking fast) though she was walking fast. I told her to cross the street to distance herself a bit but the guy was walking in the middle of the street at that point. When he was about eight carlengths behind her an elevator maintenance van pulled up about half a block ahead and the maintenance man got out and went around his van to grab his tools on the sidewalk side. She went up to him and began a conversation, quickly telling him the situation and asking if he'd stay out there while she waited for me. At that point I was about 30 seconds away. He said sure, no problem. When the guy saw she was talking to the maintenance man he slowed way down and casually walked by, staring at her. I was driving down the same road he was walking down and when I passed the guy he stared at me. Looked like the usual older drugged out gangster I see so many of around here. When I picked her up we both thanked the maintenance man and went home.

This morning we woke up and she said she had a nightmare. She said the man was following her, caught up to her, and pushed her down. She pulled out an S&W Airweight she was carrying (we've been looking at one for her but she doesn't have one now) and shot him. She was extremely concerned when we were discussing THAT scenario because she feared she'd go to prison for murder because "all he did was push me down". I explained to her that I believe that's enough to make you fear for your life and it would've been a justified shoot. What do you guys think?

After this she won't be taking public transportation at night. I asked her right after it happened if she thought she could've shot the guy, had he actually caught up to her and done something and she said she wasn't sure because she was so shaken up.

EDIT: My girlfriend also wanted me to add she was carrying a large bag from Sak's Fifth Avenue.

 

[lacoochee]

It would have been a good shoot in Florida

Once he assaulted (or in this case had he) her it would have been justifiable self-defense, essentially the test is, "would a reasonable normal person have feared death or great bodily harm in that circumstance?". Not sure about the laws in your state some have a higher thresh hold than others, though I cannot imagine a jury convicting your girl friend under these circumstances. In so far as her ability to shoot the attacker, it sound like she answered that question in her dream. In her dream it was reality and she shot him when she was overwhelmed with fear. Having said that, get her training, take her to the range once a week, do it on a Saturday morning go to the range then breakfast, make a ritual out if it, so that when the time comes that she has to defend herself her mind will allow no other course of action than the required one.

 

[hso]

Not too many rapes take place standing or sitting so the question for her to consider is whether being "pushed down" is just the beginning of a horrible assault.

 

[justatexasboy]

You showed remarkable self control in not stomping the guy when you saw him. I tip my hat to you. I do think ytou should have IDd him as well as you could and then call the authorities. A guy acting like this is up to no good and probably had a record already.

 

[strambo]

I'd get her that gun and training pronto. The bright side (oh yes there is one) is that your subconscious thinks dreams are reality, like lacoochee said. She is willing to use deadly force to protect herself without hesitation at a subconscious level. Don't let her conscious mind screw that up with fear of prosecution etc...which will cause hesitation.

A good CCW course will cover the laws so she will fully understand them. As far as shooting courses, The Firearms Academy Of Seattle (FAS) in Centralia, WA has good courses at very reasonable prices. I'd love to recommend them 1st hand, but I haven't made it to a class there yet due to my deployments. The Place To Shoot in Delta Park offers firearms training and their instructors have been to the national schools. I took a basic pistol course there many, many years ago along with the CCW course and they were both very good. Also get your own copy of the Oregon Revised Statutes and read the sections on use of force and weapons for yourself.

 

[Exmasonite]

good call on the "no more public trans"

some of those weirdos get a certain fascination/obsession for a person and he could be much more aggressive next time he sees her.

glad it worked out and good luck!

 

[highlander 5]

If your girl friend is cocerned about goingto jail god forbid if she does use lethal force perhaps an alternitive is a good OC spray with a marking dye of some type. I'm assuming that your in Oregon not Maine. IANAL so I can't say whether in this scenario if it would be considered justiable or not. I'm not trying to disuade youfrom buying a pistol for SD the fact that your GF wants to learn to shoot is fantastic and you should take her to the range and often

 

[Joe Link]

She's a better shot than I am

 

[03Shadowbob]

As was said before me, it would have been a good shoot in FL from my understanding. Make sure she is aware of her surroundings at all times even though she won't be taking mass transit any longer. This weirdo might have been scoping her out for days or weeks.
BTW, you have much more restraint than I do.

 

[gunsmith]

I thought the rail system was a "gun free" zone

in Portland? (so she should have felt safe, eh? )

If this guy is much larger and pushed her down, then it would probably be a good shoot.

Of course the hippies might think she was an oppressor

 

[Eyesac]

oh good God, that scares the crap out of me (for all women everwhere). It drives me nuts that my wife is out there with crazies like this, I can't get her interested in CCW for the life of me. Hopefully she doesn't have to encounter a creep like this to start thinking of self defence...

Good luck with your GF and hope she never has to use it.

 

[Cosmoline]

I sure wouldn't want to try my luck with a Stumptown jury. They've all gone insane down there. I barely even recognize the place anymore. What used to be a fairly laid back, libertarian town now resembles some faux Manhattan of the west, run by aggressive liberals.

 

[Juna]

Not too many rapes take place standing or sitting so the question for her to consider is whether being "pushed down" is just the beginning of a horrible assault.

I hate that our society makes us question these things. The only way to know for sure what the guy planned to do would have been to let him do it. Personally, the prosecuting attorneys can rot in hell before I'll give up my right to self defense and wait for someone to harm myself or my wife.

My wife was watching that NBC thing Saturday night about the shooting in AZ where the guy got convicted of murder for shooting someone he claimed he believed was trying to harm/kill him. That made her say, "See, I might as well not carry a gun b/c I'll just go to jail if I use it." This makes me sick that people feel this way. The legal system in this country has really gone too far when people would rather endanger their own life than risk prosecution.

I think we should disarm all the lawyers and make them take public transportation at night.

 

[03Shadowbob]

I know how you feel Eyesac. My wife is warming up to the idea of CCW and really learning how to shoot but until I am worried about her everyday. She is a fraud investigator for a 3rd tier insurance company and goes to the shadiest parts of South Florida.

 

[pax]

Joey ~

My sympathy to your girlfriend for the scare, and also my congratulations to her for thinking on her feet very well under stress. Make sure she knows she did well, because she did.

I really hate to sound like a shill for my own site, but do have your gf stop by www.corneredcat.com -- I've worked pretty hard writing up a bunch of articles useful to people who are just beginning to be interested in self-defense issues. Especially, she may want to visit http://www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.htm, an article which explains the basic legal principles at play in any self-defense shooting.

Bottom line? If a small female is attacked by a male on the street, she may legally assume that he possesses the ability to kill or maim her. That is one of the three elements that must be present in any self-defense shooting. The other two elements are opportunity and jeopardy, which are probably present as well, meaning that yes, she probably could legally defend herself from a "he just pushed me down" attack as described in your first post. All three elements are very situation-dependent, however -- especially jeopardy -- so don't take this as a complete answer. Please read the article for a better explanation.

Hope that helps.

pax

 

[Abby]

Joey-

Glad everything worked out. Your girlfriend did everything one is supposed to do (seeking a more populated area, etc). However, it sounds like she also had the unfortunate revelation that sometimes a person needs a "fallback."

I'm glad she's OK. I'm glad it looks like she's going to be willing to arm herself. And she's lucky to have you to help her along.

Lots and lots of training will get her past most of the "could I shoot?" trepidation. In times of great stress, we fall back on training, and have the luxury of sorting out the rest later.

 

[Stickjockey]

I thought the rail system was a "gun free" zone
in Portland?

They tried, but State law trumps the policy.

166.170 State preemption. (1) Except as expressly authorized by state statute, the authority to regulate in any matter whatsoever the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, storage, transportation or use of firearms or any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition, is vested solely in the Legislative Assembly.

(2) Except as expressly authorized by state statute, no county, city or other municipal corporation or district may enact civil or criminal ordinances, including but not limited to zoning ordinances, to regulate, restrict or prohibit the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, storage, transportation or use of firearms or any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition. Ordinances that are contrary to this subsection are void. [1995 s.s. c.1 §1]

 

[Lonestar]

Joey...There are a few stories out there where a women alone at a train or subway station has been raped and/or murdered. A rape and murder happened at a train staion near my area a few years back. If at all possible she should not "Hang out" at the train station. There is safety in numbers. When she gets off the train there may be a few people that get off with her, she should leave the station with them. You should have her walk to a nearby store or fast food stand and not wait at the station. If the station she uses regularly is in an isolated area, have her get off at the one before or after, I rather drive a little farther, and know she is waiting at a safe place.
Also if you can try to get there early every time, if you can.

 

[TallPine]

If a small female is attacked by a male on the street, she may legally assume that he possesses the ability to kill or maim her.

I understand what you are saying, but what about when a small male is attacked by a large male on the street...?

Seems like everyone expects every male no matter what their age or health situation to be some sort of super action hero in a scripted movie and just throw the big dumb slow bad guy into a dumpster or something

 

[Low-Sci]

I definately agree with the sentiment that law-abiding, decent people shouldn't have to ask themselves whether or not a reasonable person would fear death in a situation. We're the good guys; if we make a habit of not breaking laws, then we should get the benefit of the doubt every time we defend ourselves, no matter what our sex or physical stature.

Unfortunately thats not how it works, for some reason lots of people think that criminals somehow deserve protection from their victims.

She did well. Had it been me on the platform, and assuming I were carrying, I may well have put my hand on my gun. If there's going to be a fight, at least I'll be fighting with the best weapon available. I could get in trouble for brandishing, but at the end of the day I'm still alive and safe.

 

[LeonCarr]

Joey,

Three words for you and your girlfriend...Thunder Ranch Oregon. Good place to train and close by.

www.thunderranchinc.com

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Geronimo45]

"Seems like everyone expects every male no matter what their age or health situation to be some sort of super action hero in a scripted movie and just throw the big dumb slow bad guy into a dumpster or something "
We men are expendable.

Strength and age come into play - look at the guy in Seattle. Fifty-two (also bald with a leather jacket, but that's beside the point). He's shoved down by a younger guy, who starts beating up on him. The bald-leather-older-guy pops him with a .357. Cops treat him right, no charges filed.

If it's a woman, shoved down - especially at night - by a man, chances are that there's plenty of justification for her to shoot.

Look at it this way - you realize how much emotion has to do with a sentence? A good lawyer would make a case that would make the DA's mother disown him.

 

[Nitrogen]

Nearly the exact same thing happened to my fianceé, only in California.

That incident, plus a few others was a big reason for me to finally leave there.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

Shoved down as an assault and prelude to rape would result in a justifiable self-defense shooting.

Shoved down as he grabs her Sak's bag and turns to run may result in charges if she shoots.

Sounds like she was really panicked. Justifiably so, with the guy stalking after her down the street. But she has to be sure she doesn't overreact because of her fear.

She should definitely be carrying pepper-spray, especially until she gets her CCW and starts carrying a handgun. Even once she can carry a gun, a non-lethal option is good to have.

 

[BigDave]

Get Proffessional Training

I would highly recommend that she gets professional training as soon as possible.
I believe there is a Training Facility in Oregon but I do not have the name.
If you cannot find one may I recommend the Firearms Academy of Seattle that is located in Onalaska Washington that also teaches Oregon Laws for Concealed Carry. Marty and Gila own and operate FAS and offer training related to women also.
By receiving professional training she will gain confidence in her abilities and in herself to protect herself.
For the mean time The Cornered Cat is designed for women and concealed carry with allot of great information and Pax is also a volunteer at FAS.
If she is wanting to carry concealed, I would get the paper working moving and get the required training to accomplish it.

You did great in helping her, I would also look into getting mace for her and a very bright tactical flashlight to temporary blind your assailant.

As to your question about the use of deadly force I would recommend reading this link http://www.useofforce.us/ it is very informative.
From what you described being pushed down may not constitute use of deadly force there still would have to be the threat of death or grievous bodily harm or the threat of rape.