Anyone can shoot a 9mm more rapidly with combat accuracy than a .40 or .45 of the same size and weight and with the same grip.
That puts more round on target in the time available, and increases the likelihood of hitting something critical.
Current issue 9mm ammo for FBI?
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That puts more round on target in the time available, and increases the likelihood of hitting something critical.
UncleEd
Member
What's so true about this statement is that
in the world of shooting competitions, the
9mm has grown in greater use simply
because the shooters have learned
they can hit the targets, stationary and
moving, with more precision coupled
with greater speed.
So-called power factors have less
meaning.
Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat has commented
numerous times how he become more
competitive after a friend turned him toward
use of the Beretta 92 which was among the
principal 9mm guns at the time.
And I believe that when the U.S. military
adopted the Beretta, which was similar in
size and weight to the 1911, recruits become
more proficient.
Putting it another way, it takes a lot more
dedication to a shooting regimen to handle
the .45 than it does the 9mm. And most
LEOs or federal agents or civilians who
have guns for defense are simply. not that
dedicated or physically able to handle the
harder recoiling calibers.
Dedicated shooters, such as Bill Wilson and Rop Pincus, can also handle the 9 more proficiently.
UncleEd
Member
Kleenbore,
I did cite Bill Wilson as an example, actually
a very early example in the world of 9mm.
A few years ago in one of the gun magazine
roundups on 1911s he wrote extensively how
Wilson Combat was getting into the 9mm
as an "ideal" cartridge for the 1911.
And in a video he made in the 1990s he
demonstrated how more proficient he
was with the 9mm over the .45
I did cite Bill Wilson as an example, actually
a very early example in the world of 9mm.
A few years ago in one of the gun magazine
roundups on 1911s he wrote extensively how
Wilson Combat was getting into the 9mm
as an "ideal" cartridge for the 1911.
And in a video he made in the 1990s he
demonstrated how more proficient he
was with the 9mm over the .45
gnappi
Member
If it doesn't start with 4 I leave it Bambi. Let her shoot fast and miss.
Trained proficient shooters shoot fast enough to achieve combat accuracy under the specific circumstances at hand.
Rob Pincus started with a .45, went to a .40, and now carries a 9MM.
This is worth reading. I wish I had read it before buying my now-retired .45.
http://www.downrange.tv/blog/being-...refers-the-9mm-over-the-40-for-defense/11563/
gnappi
Member
I "Thought"I made it clear... But if I don't care what the FBI does I clearly do not care what anyone else does... Pinky included
Shoot poppers setup to not fall on a windy day with a full mag of nines... Not me.
Shoot poppers setup to not fall on a windy day with a full mag of nines... Not me.
What knocks down an inanimate target and what sill stop a charging human are two entirely different things.
The mechanisms are not the same at all.
The first has to so with the conservation of momentum when a visible target is deliberately shot. One shot should do it.
The second has to do with the destruction, by crushing, of hidden body tissue that is struck by chance. The likelihood of an effective it will be higher if more shots are fired. How "hard" the target is struck is meaningless, as long as there is adequate penetration and expansion.
This is a subject that is oft misunderstood by people who form impressions from shooting at steel plates, bowling pins, water jugs, or cinder blocks and have not studied the anatomical principles involved in defensive shooting.
Most of us have been there. Massad Ayoob tells us to have a copy of Gray's Anatomy in the gunroom, and to study it carefully.
Shooting at such things is fun, but it tells us nothing about handgun wounding effectiveness.
gnappi
Member
Go for it.
Palladan44
Member
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Yes sir. If the bottom [number of your choice] % of agents cant qualify with any particular setup, then all the rest miss out.
JR24
Member
I've seen that before, usually on a new, tight, 1911 and using dirty ammo. Also, usually when it's a bit rainy and around 30-40 degrees.
In that case I take it as a quick sign to stop, field strip, and give the rails a bit more lube, but it is kinda fun to see the slide work in slow-mo.
dogtown tom
Member
Todd please answer this.
When steel plates start attacking people that will be relevant. When it comes to stopping real people there has NEVER been any measurable difference between 9mm, 40 or 45 when comparable ammo was used. The military settled the argument in 1946 when they spent a lot of time testing 9mm vs 45 after WW-2.
They could find absolutely no difference in effectiveness on living tissue, but 9mm significantly out performed 45 when it came to penetrating WW-2 era helmets and other barriers. And these tests didn't even take into account less recoil, better accuracy and having twice the ammo.
The cold hard truth is that the military was disappointed with both the 1911 and 45 ACP cartridge's performance during the war. Most soldiers didn't like the weapon or round considering the German 9mm superior. The military seriously wanted to dump both for a hi capacity 9mm pistol in 1946. But no real war, budget cuts, and warehouses full of serviceable 1911's meant the idea got shelved.
The 45 and 1911's mystique came after WW-2 ended. Mostly from the hyperbole and downright fictional writings of some gun writers of the era.
danez71
Member
You should inform .gov of that so they can update FAR/DFAR.
https://www.acquisition.gov/browse/index/far
https://www.acquisition.gov/dfars
gnappi
Member
Zealots... they did the same thing dropping the 9 when the FBI and State / local agencies adopted the .40, .357 Sig, and .45 GAP, now that the 9 is back in fashion at the LEO level, well...
No rationale, just follow the herd, go for it.
No rationale, just follow the herd, go for it.
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DeepSouth
Random Guy
When I started reading this thread I really didn’t see it devolving into caliber war, I should have as I’ve seen it over and over.
I really wish people would do a little hunting with 9’s and 45’s. Not moose just shoot a couple smaller whitetail, the debate will end.
I really wish people would do a little hunting with 9’s and 45’s. Not moose just shoot a couple smaller whitetail, the debate will end.
There is nothing in the FAR that prohibits the limitation of pages or words, and the DAR has been defunct for a long, long time.
gnappi
Member
What do you mean?
amd6547
Member
My Dad was an armored cavalryman before and during WWII. He fought in the hedgerows at Falaise, and on into Austria.
While he had a lot of respect for the 9mm, and dismissed the Cooper-istic criticisms of it, his caliber was .45, and he in fact brought a 1911 home from the war. Still, when he lucked into a trade for German produced Polish 9mm Radom, he was tickled. That worn, pitted and utterly reliable pistol became my first self defense pistol…I adopted the 9mm when most cops had .38 Model 10’s in their holsters. It is still my main caliber in the form of the Glock 17.
I have switched to the .40 for home defense, thanks to the cheap police surplus pistols before the plandemic. I find I like the cartridge, and agree it whacks steel and bowling pins visibly harder than 9mm.
gnappi
Member
Rationale... been there... Feds / LEO go to from 9 to .40.. everyone dropped the 9, Feds / LEO dropped .40, everyone went to 9. I don't go with that flow, anyone can gen up their reasons but I bet that if the Feds stayed with .40 we woudn't be having this discussion.
I would never have gotten that from "go for it".
gnappi
Member
Rationale... go for it... make up your own reasons, or go with the herd... whatever 
I have done neither.
That most trainers, almost all most law enforcement agencies, all Federal agencies and all military users in the world have settled on the 9mm does not mean in any way that someone who chooses it is doing so to "go with the herd".
I do have my reasons, but I would not characterize them as "my own".
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