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Fliers with Plated Bullets in Glock 40S&W

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Hartkopf

Hartkopf

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This is strange to me and I’m trying to figure out what I’m doing wrong.

Shooting a bone stock Glock 22, 10 yards from a rest. I am getting fliers that look to even key hole with two different loads of Berry’s CPRNFP. I’ll get 3 or 4 shots in a tight group and then a flier that rips a jagged hole in the paper. (usually a bit low and to the right)

Load #1 is 165gr Berry’s over 5.3gr of Titegroup. 1.135coal. All Federal brass.

Load #2 is 155gr Berry’s over 8.5gr of Longshot. 1.135coal. Mixed brass.

Velocity for both loads should be well below 1200fps.

I DID NOT OVER CRIMP. Yes I did use a Lee factory crimp die but I pulled several bullets to verify and they all measure .400”. The finished rounds have a perfectly square edge at the mouth of the case. It is not squeezed into the bullet at all. (they feed, fire and eject perfectly)

I’m using Lee dies and the resizing die really brings the diameter of the case way down. The finished rounds are very hour glass shaped with the diameter of the case below the bullet .004” smaller (.416) than where the bullet is seated(.420)

Powder was thrown from a Lyman powder measure and I checked weights regularly. Weights were always very close and I was meticulous with my procedure.


I really thought I had all my bases covered but something is way wrong with these loads. I did shoot a five shot group with factory Federal HSTs and it was nice and tight. I can test other factory rounds but I don’t think it’s the gun. Any ideas?
 
Hartkopf said:
Load #1 is 165gr Berry’s over 5.3gr of Titegroup. 1.135coal. All Federal brass.

Load #2 is 155gr Berry’s over 8.5gr of Longshot. 1.135coal. Mixed brass.
Click to expand...

Going by the reloading data on the Hodgdon website, you are over max charge on the 165Gr using Titegroup. Max load is 5.1 grains. Hodgdon doesn't even list data for 155Gr Berry's bullets with Longshot. The only list Titegroup for the Berry's 155 grain bullets.

Here is a screen shot of the Hodgdon website with their data for both 155 grain and 165 grain Berry's plated bullets. BERB stands for Berry's bullets. I personally would use the data listed for Berry's Bullets (BERB). From the lad data, you are using data for the Hornady XTP 155 grain bullets.

BERB reload data.png
 
12Bravo20 said:
Going by the reloading data on the Hodgdon website, you are over max charge on the 165Gr using Titegroup. Max load is 5.1 grains. Hodgdon doesn't even list data for 155Gr Berry's bullets with Longshot. The only list Titegroup for the Berry's 155 grain bullets.

Here is a screen shot of the Hodgdon website with their data for both 155 grain and 165 grain Berry's plated bullets. BERB stands for Berry's bullets. I personally would use the data listed for Berry's Bullets (BERB). From the lad data, you are using data for the Hornady XTP 155 grain bullets.

View attachment 1008786
Click to expand...

Good catch. I was actually using data from Speer TMJ that had the max at 5.4gr. I’ve used Speer data for 9mm with Berry’s and never had this problem but honestly I never scrutinized the end result like I did these loads.

Could it be that simple? Just slow em down?
 
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Yes try using the Hodgdon data. And use Titegroup with the 155 grain bullets instead of the Longshot.

I have found that Speer data can be hotter with some calibers and weaker with other calibers when comparing to Hodgdon or Lee data.
 
Sounds like they could be coming apart, shoot cardboard up close and see if they are pinwheeling lead.

29BF8FF4-DC72-4109-B17F-CA9386063840.jpeg 1641DF53-1398-4427-A299-51DACE3E1699.jpeg

If they are, you need to back off crimp, slow them down or both, as they don’t fix themselves the further they get away from the barrel.
 
jmorris said:
Sounds like they could be coming apart, shoot cardboard up close and see if they are pinwheeling lead.

View attachment 1008789 View attachment 1008790


If they are, you need to back off crimp, slow them down or both, as they don’t fix themselves the further they get away from the barrel.
Click to expand...

Would pinwheeling show up at 10 yards? I definitely was not getting lead spirals on the paper. I used almost no crimp and pulled bullets from finished rounds to verify full diameter.
 
And I just checked the Speer website, they do not list Longshot for the 155 grain TMJ bullets.

https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/40_Smith__Wesson_155.pdf

And yes Speer data is hot compared to Hodgdon data for the 40 caliber bullets. I reload the Speer TMJ (plated bullets) the same as Berry's plated bullets.

I reload my 40S&W with 180 grain plated bullets using Universal powder. Here is the differences between Hodgdon and Speer data for plated 180 grain bullets and Universal.

Hodgdon Min - 4.6 grains Max - 5.1 grains
Speet Min - 5.3 grains Max 5.9 grains

I usually stick with the Hodgdon data for plated bullets and get good results. And I do use the Lee FCD. I am actually running 5.2 grains of Universal with the 180 grain plated bullets.

So yes try dropping your powder charges to the Hodgdon data and see what happens.
 
Hartkopf said:
Would pinwheeling show up at 10 yards? I definitely was not getting lead spirals on the paper. I used almost no crimp and pulled bullets from finished rounds to verify full diameter.
Click to expand...

If the bullet is already keyholing the target at that distance, per the 2nd sentence in the OP, that distance will be too far to see the spray. Try 1 yard.
 
I loaded the Longshot loads a while back and just got a chance to test them. I’ll have to look in my folder tomorrow at who’s data I used. (Must have been 155gr Hornady XTP data as you said 12Bravo20)
 
I've shot tens of thousands of those bullets and xtreme plated bullets. In different weights sometimes but those are my two main bullets. Probably 75% of those bullets fired through a pair of gen 3 Glock 22. Never had any flyer issues. Unfortunately I never used those powders. I have used the lee factory crimp die and I've not used it too. Never hurt accuracy. I've also used at least 3 die brands over the years and had no issues. Lee/ hornady/ rcbs. I used to be picky about brass brands/ sorting/ head stamps etc etc but now in my .40 steel shooting rounds I don't even sort. Most of my brass is once fired LE brass that is given to me so it's all good brass. All brass from gold dots/ hst/ and rangers. Half of it nickel plated

Rifles are another story entirely.

Is your brass suspect? Maybe lacking tension. How many uses. Also that's a good bit longer COL than I use or have ever seen listed in any of my manuals but unlikely that's causing your flyers. If they function then is likely fine. I'm not loading mine so close to Max either.
Noticeable flyers from a rest at such a short distance would certainly cause me to look into the issue.
 
I’ll bet the load data 12Bravo20 posted, that is slower than jacketed data, is because accuracy went to hell running plated any faster. I never would’ve thought they would do this crazy flier thing though. I will definitely work up some slower loads, hopefully this weekend, and see if that alone fixes the issue.
 
crestoncowboy said:
I've shot tens of thousands of those bullets and xtreme plated bullets. In different weights sometimes but those are my two main bullets. Probably 75% of those bullets fired through a pair of gen 3 Glock 22. Never had any flyer issues. Unfortunately I never used those powders. I have used the lee factory crimp die and I've not used it too. Never hurt accuracy. I've also used at least 3 die brands over the years and had no issues. Lee/ hornady/ rcbs. I used to be picky about brass brands/ sorting/ head stamps etc etc but now in my .40 steel shooting rounds I don't even sort. Most of my brass is once fired LE brass that is given to me so it's all good brass. All brass from gold dots/ hst/ and rangers. Half of it nickel plated

Rifles are another story entirely.

Is your brass suspect? Maybe lacking tension. How many uses. Also that's a good bit longer COL than I use or have ever seen listed in any of my manuals but unlikely that's causing your flyers. If they function then is likely fine. I'm not loading mine so close to Max either.
Noticeable flyers from a rest at such a short distance would certainly cause me to look into the issue.
Click to expand...

My brass was once fired, in good shape and had lots of neck tension.

I’ve never had this obvious of a problem with 9mm plated bullets, even running them near max, but maybe the 40 has different characteristics and needs to run slower.
 
There is a good chance that using the Hodgdon data instead of the Speer data will help correct things for you. Keep us updated. And you are correct that you do not want to use max FMJ load data with plated bullets. Max FMJ loads can cause the plating to separate from the lead.
 
I will ditch the Longshot altogether for this project and just focus on Titegroup loads for plated bullets.

I also have HS-6 that I might try one day but I don’t want to clutter this any further right now.
 
A late update: 5.0grs of titegroup with 165gr Berry’s bullets stopped the flyer problem.

Lesson learned. Thanks 12Bravo20 and everyone who replied to my problem. :):thumbup:

Initially I was trying to duplicate carry loads. I now have some FMJ bullets on the way for this purpose.
 
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Appreciate the update, I was watching the thread but waiting for the outcome. One (other) thing about Titegroup I’ve found at the max end, either by charge weight or shorter COL, there’s little wiggle room before things start coming apart. Don’t get me wrong, TGs a good powder and I have and use it, but prefer other more well behaved variants.
If you’re loading for target or light loads it’s fine, but if you’re going full bore with SD in mind, I suggest you pick a slower powder. Good luck.
 
Let me see a photo of a bullet removed from one of your loaded cartridges. I bet you are over-crimping, and the case is rupturing the plating. You shouldn't see but just the slightest of indentations in the plated bullet after loading.
 
lordpaxman said:
Appreciate the update, I was watching the thread but waiting for the outcome. One (other) thing about Titegroup I’ve found at the max end, either by charge weight or shorter COL, there’s little wiggle room before things start coming apart. Don’t get me wrong, TGs a good powder and I have and use it, but prefer other more well behaved variants.
If you’re loading for target or light loads it’s fine, but if you’re going full bore with SD in mind, I suggest you pick a slower powder. Good luck.
Click to expand...
One of the many reasons I have come to prefer W231, Competition, AA#5 and Unique for .40S&W. I'm new to the round but not to reloading and the posts here advised those powders. Unique works for everything - that's what makes it Unique ;) - but it has its quirks in self-loaders and those need to be kept in mind. Accurate No. 5 and Ramshot Competition have proven to be excellent choices for 180gr. RNFP cast from #2 Alloy. Accurate No. 5 and W231 have worked out very well with the X-Treme 155gr. RNFP - the only plated bullets I've tried in .40S&W, so far. I have not tried any jacketed bullets since I'm not loading for power or penetration, just plinking and close-range "accuracy." Pie-plate at 25yards accuracy.

Good thread. Happy it all came together. I've gotten into the habit of using hard cast or swaged lead load data first with plated, then working up to the best FFF/E + "accuracy." 3.1gr. of Competition with the Valiant 180gr. hard cast is soft shooting but reliable and I can keep every round inside the 6" circle at 25 yards, unsupported, standing, one-handed.
 
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