45ACP Rounds w/No Expanding

[CQB45ACP]

Quite awhile ago was having difficulties with reloading 380 acp for a walther ppk. The problem wasn't bullet setback, but bullet pull (unusual). Had Lee make a 380 u die, and the problem was solved. It did require case belling without reexpanding the full inner dia. When i started out looking for ways to increase case neck tension or bullet setback in semi pistol calibers, went the route of not using an expanding plug or flaring in 9mm. It worked, but pinched my fingers too many times. Granted my bullet selection was not based on making that process easier and am using a single stage press. Some consider the use of an expanding plug is to help produce a consistent inside dia, which may, or may not be much more than the inside dia left after resizing differing makes of brass.

But when going the route in 9mm, could tell the difference when seating in single action press. However to determine if the desired results were being achieved, relied on testing setbck from dummy round being fed from mag using slide release. This seems to be the closest to replicate the forces the round would be subjected to. And yes, have the Redding comp pistol seaters, which really help in keeping the bullets straight while being seated.

At least in my experience, using a u die reduces the inner diam more than the resizing dies am using, which is what they are designed to do. And can tell a difference in bullet seating. Someone else's results may vary, as am not using much in the way of soft plated bullets. Am not having problems when using target full size lead in good brass.

One of the great things here is I’m not trying to solve a problem. Just wondering what would happen if I did such and such.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Each brand of brass will produce different results.

Even after expanding, spring back is different, between brands.

Bullet pull can be any where from 45 pounds to 100 pounds to move a 200 gr LSWC in 45acp.
In my testing.

Measure case (OD) outside diameter, before & after bullet seating. An increase of .002" to .005" has been measured.

Always fun to do your own testing. More reasons to shoot.

Indeed more reason to shoot

All Winchester this go round maybe do others later.

Yes measure good idea

 

[CQB45ACP]

Well the three testers shot like all the others which is what I expected.

Only thing of possible interest—all three cases still drop in Hornady case gauge prior to resizing.

 

[Charlie98]

Only thing of possible interest—all three cases still drop in Hornady case gauge prior to resizing.

Just remember... a case gauge is usually max dimension, not minimums. I have .308 cases fired in my Socom16 that will drop right in my Wilson case gauge... but that doesn't mean they will fit in my chamber, if you see what I mean.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Just remember... a case gauge is usually max dimension, not minimums. I have .308 cases fired in my Socom16 that will drop right in my Wilson case gauge... but that doesn't mean they will fit in my chamber, if you see what I mean.

Well aware and not at all germane.

This is a case gauge I typically use AFTER sizing as an indicator (dare I say gauge?) of sizing results nothing else. So I’m comparing unsized cases to prior sizing. Nothing else.

 

[JHTexas]

yes, although in some instances it is more difficult to tell the difference. Like well used rp 45 acp pistol brass using jacketed bullets, which never do anymore.

I may do some testing to see if there is much of an increase in case bullet tension or if it’s mainly the undersized case beneath the base/heal of the bullet that prevents setback. I just haven’t convinced myself it’s worth the time.

Each brand of brass will produce different results.

Even after expanding, spring back is different, between brands.

I totally agree, this is what makes it so difficult to know what the reloader is dealing with. If an undersized sizing die forms the case small enough under the bullet base it may just be that preventing setback and not the case tension between the bullets bearing surface & case. It may hide the fact of knowing the cases have lost spring back. Thinking about this in regards to making accurate target rounds.

 

[JHTexas]

So thinking out loud—if one subscribes to the theory that undersized dies increase tension (as I USED TO), this casual experiment should have exhibited at least some little indication of that. It didn’t as far as I’m concerned.

Maybe other cases or bullets or something but not this iteration.

I have had challenges in the past with Berry’s in 45acp with medium burn powders. The bullets are so slippery they want to move of the case easily. Some brands of brass worked better, I think R.P. If I’m not mistaken. Neck tension is one thing but the resistance/friction between the bullet and the case is another variable. I don’t see the same issue in 9mm and I just run the fastest powders when using Berry’s in 45acp.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I may do some testing to see if there is much of an increase in case bullet tension or if it’s mainly the undersized case beneath the base/heal of the bullet that prevents setback. I just haven’t convinced myself it’s worth the time.


I totally agree, this is what makes it so difficult to know what the reloader is dealing with. If an undersized sizing die forms the case small enough under the bullet base it may just be that preventing setback and not the case tension between the bullets bearing surface & case. It may hide the fact of knowing the cases have lost spring back. Thinking about this in regards to making accurate target rounds.
View attachment 1175063

Yes please do that testing as a service to the rest of us.

Looks to me, from appearances only, undersizing a 9mm case vs a 45acp gives far different results in terms your bullet base theory.

My 9mms look like your picture above but my 45s look nearly straight even using a straightedge.

Don’t know if that’s expected or coincidence—please test

 

[CQB45ACP]

I have had challenges in the past with Berry’s in 45acp with medium burn powders. The bullets are so slippery they want to move off the case easily. Some brands of brass worked better, I think R.P. If I’m not mistaken. Neck tension is one thing but the resistance/friction between the bullet and the case is another variable. I don’t see the same issue in 9mm and I just run the fastest powders when using Berry’s in 45acp.

They may be slick but slicker than Extreme?

BTW, I’m keeping one constant here—brass—and am using only from my preset batch of 200ish Winchester cases which are part of my informal longevity test.

 

[Charlie98]

Well aware and not at all germane.

This is a case gauge I typically use AFTER sizing as an indicator (dare I say gauge?) of sizing results nothing else. So I’m comparing unsized cases to prior sizing. Nothing else.

Scratching my head on that one.

If a fired, unsized case drops into a case gauge, a sized case would... even more so. Or maybe I'm not following you...

 

[JHTexas]

Yes please do that testing as a service to the rest of us.

Looks to me, from appearances only, undersizing a 9mm case vs a 45acp gives far different results in terms your bullet base theory.

My 9mms look like your picture above but my 45s look nearly straight even using a straightedge.

Don’t know if that’s expected or coincidence—please test

So you’re correct in the observation between the 45acp and 9mm and that is related to case taper.
The under sizing die is creating a cylinder shape where the taper is per SAAMI On the 9mm.

45acp has .003 total only .0015 per side
9mm has .011 total with .0055 per side.

 

[CQB45ACP]

So you’re correct in the observation between the 45acp and 9mm and that is related to case taper.
The under sizing die is creating a cylinder shape where the taper is per SAAMI.

45acp has .003 total only .0015 per side
9mm has .011 total with .0055 per side.
View attachment 1175068

In 9mm then it’s changing the shape not just size? It’s not an undersized tapered case but an undersized straight wall?

 

[StrykerByte.45]

I figured out a couple weeks ago that the Berry's plated bullets 200gr SWC .452 are soft and easily reshape. If you remember, I had an issue with them not having enough neck tension with 45super cases that I blamed on using a bore brush on a drill to clean the cade neck.
Most of the reloads worked, but the few cases that I had issues with I set aside to deprime. However, I recently acquired some Hornady .452 250gr XTP and decided to try those bullets in the cases that I had issues with. They had excellent neck tension and turned out to be great reloads.
My theory is that those bullets tend to squish. I also had issues seating and reshaping the nose ever so slightly. Now I know that I have to load these with extra care, which is a reason to never buy them again.

 

[JHTexas]

In 9mm then it’s changing the shape not just size? It’s not an undersized tapered case but an undersized straight wall?

Yes, it’s creating a cylindrical shape where the taper should be. The cylinder is smaller in diameter by .002~.003 then the norm and I think it even produces the shape lower on the case when compared to a standard die.
So after sizing you have a tapered lower case with a cylinder above it.
Now expand and seat a bullet and you see the famous “Coke Bottle“ shape that some like, and some hate.

At some point I’ll create a basic drawing on the die in relation to case because it helps explain a couple of things.

 

[JHTexas]

I figured out a couple weeks ago that the Berry's plated bullets 200gr SWC .452 are soft and easily reshape. If you remember, I had an issue with them not having enough neck tension with 45super cases that I blamed on using a bore brush on a drill to clean the cade neck.
Most of the reloads worked, but the few cases that I had issues with I set aside to deprime. However, I recently acquired some Hornady .452 250gr XTP and decided to try those bullets in the cases that I had issues with. They had excellent neck tension and turned out to be great reloads.
My theory is that those bullets tend to squish. I also had issues seating and reshaping the nose ever so slightly. Now I know that I have to load these with extra care, which is a reason to never buy them again.

Yes, you think you need to produce more neck tension and do, then it results in sizing down the bullet diameter.
Next observation is, where did the accuracy go… Been there done that.

Those XTP’s are nice, kind of spoil ya… I love shooting them, just don’t like the cost, try to buy then on sale.

 

[JHTexas]

They may be slick but slicker than Extreme?

BTW, I’m keeping one constant here—brass—and am using only from my preset batch of 200ish Winchester cases which are part of my informal longevity test.

I’m not sure I could say more. Most of what I have now in plated are Berry’s.
Maybe someone else can compare the two.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Yes, it’s creating a cylindrical shape where the taper should be. The cylinder is smaller in diameter by .002~.003 then the norm and I think it even produces the shape lower on the case when compared to a standard die.
So after sizing you have a tapered lower case with a cylinder above it.
Now expand and seat a bullet and you see the famous “Coke Bottle“ shape that some like, and some hate.

At some point I’ll create a basic drawing on the die in relation to case because it helps explain a couple of things.

I don’t mind the coke bottle shape and provided it doesn’t hurt accuracy don’t object to continuing to use the undersized die but it just doesn’t seem the right thing to do.

I stopped using the Mak die as a bulge buster for the same non-specific reason. Maybe I’m becoming a purist.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Yes, you think you need to produce more neck tension and do, then it results in sizing down the bullet diameter.
Next observation is, where did the accuracy go… Been there done that.

Those XTP’s are nice, kind of spoil ya… I love shooting them, just don’t like the cost, try to buy then on sale.

They turned out to be great rounds. I got them slightly over 1100fps, then downloaded to about 1070fps. I had several left so I decided to load up this mag staggered with the remaining rounds from a box of Underwood 255gr 45super which do 1090fps.

That's the meanest mag ever.

I think next time I will load them to 1100fps again. .1gr difference.

 

[zeke]

They may be slick but slicker than Extreme?

BTW, I’m keeping one constant here—brass—and am using only from my preset batch of 200ish Winchester cases which are part of my informal longevity test.

Winchester is my prefered brass in 45 acp and 9mm. It is plenty thick and the elasticity lasts. However most my practice rounds are sorted range pickups, the new brass reserved for full powered "vermin" rounds. In 45 acp practice rounds, the Win brass lasts long enough to almost wipe out the head stamp.

 

[zeke]

I may do some testing to see if there is much of an increase in case bullet tension or if it’s mainly the undersized case beneath the base/heal of the bullet that prevents setback. I just haven’t convinced myself it’s worth the time.


I totally agree, this is what makes it so difficult to know what the reloader is dealing with. If an undersized sizing die forms the case small enough under the bullet base it may just be that preventing setback and not the case tension between the bullets bearing surface & case. It may hide the fact of knowing the cases have lost spring back. Thinking about this in regards to making accurate target rounds.
View attachment 1175063

Tough part about discussing one option on reloading is everyones purpose, dies, brass, bullets and sequence of loading prep may differ. As an example if i was using .452 lrn in good condition quality brass, would not/do not undersize it. I just don't re-expand it, but do bell the case mouth. However alot of my practice brass is more than well used, and it gets u died. As is all the 45 acp Rem brass, which only gets used for lead practice rounds. It's just another consideration.

 

[CQB45ACP]

They turned out to be great rounds. I got them slightly over 1100fps, then downloaded to about 1070fps. I had several left so I decided to load up this mag staggered with the remaining rounds from a box of Underwood 255gr 45super which do 1090fps.
View attachment 1175072
That's the meanest mag ever.

I think next time I will load them to 1100fps again. .1gr difference.

Never seen Hornady load data push them that fast. Interesting.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Winchester is my prefered brass in 45 acp and 9mm. It is plenty thick and the elasticity lasts. However most my practice rounds are sorted range pickups, the new brass reserved for full powered "vermin" rounds. In 45 acp practice rounds, the Win brass lasts long enough to almost wipe out the head stamp.

I don’t necessarily prefer it over any other. I semi-randomly picked it because I had plenty available to sort through.

 

[Walkalong]

Well the three testers shot like all the others which is what I expected.

Only thing of possible interest—all three cases still drop in Hornady case gauge prior to resizing.

View attachment 1175056

Not all that unusual

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Never seen Hornady load data push them that fast. Interesting.

I don't remember finding official load data for these. I'm not sure. I got the recipe from Glocktalk website on a thread for 45super information. Lots of load data there. The OP of the load data was using 1 grain more than I am using pushing them to 1164fps. He also used a longer OAL and another .8 grains to get past 1200fps. He had no signs of pressure, I would think 1300fps would be about the max at no more than 45000psi. My gun is not setup for that. I thought about getting a bigger brake, but no. I am happy where I am at and further velocities won't gain me much.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Not all that unusual

Really? Interesting. Is it unique to 45acp or any?

I’ve never experienced it myself BUT I also don’t spend a lot of time gauging cases before I resize them. And I’ll be darned if I’m going to start!