open carry for blackpowder revolvers ?

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Sure, a cap and ball could get you through a gunfight today, just as it did for people of long ago... but compared to the options on the market now (and for the last 100 years even), it's a grotesquely outdated choice.

These two guns are roughly equal in muzzle energy, yet the Navy is huge, heavy, holds less ammo, and will take you the rest of your life to reload if needed. It also costs about the same, or more once you acquire all the needed accouterments to load it properly.
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B-b-b-but that 1851 Navy Colt is so much prettier than that dinky plastic-fantastic pistol!!!!! :D:rofl:

Seriously, it IS! However, yea, I admit it, the modern gun is much more practical and easier to reload and .... so forth.


Geeesh. I feel like a traitor now .....:what:
 
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Ethan Verity said:
Sure, a cap and ball could get you through a gunfight today, just as it did for people of long ago... but compared to the options on the market now (and for the last 100 years even), it's a grotesquely outdated choice.

These two guns are roughly equal in muzzle energy, yet the Navy is huge, heavy, holds less ammo, and will take you the rest of your life to reload if needed. It also costs about the same, or more once you acquire all the needed accouterments to load it properly.
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I own both. I’d rather shoot my ’51 and carry my Ruger. The Ruger is NO fun to shoot.
 
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Speaking of president Biden and double barrel shotguns...

Thank you Joe Biden, i bought a German ww2 double barrel. If i ever get in any trouble ill do what Joe said.. fire both shots in the air and yell in Angry German, HALT !!

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I see the BP revolver as a fallback defensive arm in EOTWAWKI situations or possibly imposition of the systems of oppression described by Solzhenitsyn in Gulag Archipelago. Regular cartridge firearms have been rounded up and destroyed except for those possessed by the oppressors. Survival may hinge upon having access to a gun...any gun.

I know a dentist from behind the former iron curtain who has stated on multiple occasions that the only reason her family was able to keep any possessions at all was because they had a gun. In a situation like that, a BP arm could suffice.

Also in these situations, those who attempt to actively resist could use a BP arm to obtain more modern arms.
 
Ethan Verity said:
Sure, a cap and ball could get you through a gunfight today, just as it did for people of long ago... but compared to the options on the market now (and for the last 100 years even), it's a grotesquely outdated choice.

These two guns are roughly equal in muzzle energy, yet the Navy is huge, heavy, holds less ammo, and will take you the rest of your life to reload if needed. It also costs about the same, or more once you acquire all the needed accouterments to load it properly.
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Does anyone actually expect the Ruger carrier to regularly practice? I used to carry only a subcompact 9 mm. I never practiced. It was a tool that I shot once every 6 months to make sure I could put shots through the vitals if needed. I shot to minute of bad guy under ideal conditions. Look at this target from my last concealed weapon recert shot after a year of shooting ONLY a cap and ball revolver to save my ammunition through 2020. As a training gun, I would say the 1851 served me well! And either will put plenty of holes in whatever needs more holes. I scored a 292 out of 300 despite the Kahr’s eternally long double action trigger pull. And I carry either according to comfort and circumstance since I’m proficient with both.
 

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candymancan said:
Hello all. Sorry for not replying. Been busy with life.. moving etc.. Someone mentioned my fealings would be hurt if they said what they wanted


First of all im 35.. not 15.. What anyone says wont hurt my feelings LOL.. i could careless in the end if someone says something you think is offensive. Be less worried about peoples feelings and just say what you want.

I made the ppst to ask for opinions. And opinions i got.

Clearly i know a 1911 is a better choice.. easier to use more reliable ( although ive had tons of jams with mine). More rounds. And honestly better holster choices. Less attention grabs. But my real question here is this.. WHY not carry a cap and ball occasionally ?

Youre all talking about hypotheticals here when you mention gun snatching. Or people shooting me first if they want to commit a crime.

I honestly cannot even think of a time or find anything on someone being blown away for walking into the supermarket and a criminal going hmm.. im going to shoot him first. I dont think thats ever haplened.. and if it has its extremely rare.

Now i have seen cases of a ccw owner following mass murderers in walmart and getting shot and killed by the lady that he didnt know was with the guy he was following.

The cases of people getting guns snatched that i have seen were with people having guns in a pocket. Not a holster with any kind of retention. Sure you hear that happening with a cop. But im not a cop who phyaically gets involved with people daily.

All these assumptions are hypothetical... The gun can be snatched.. open carry means youre dead first.. i get it..

I dont have conceal permits yet so i open carry. And again all i have is what i have.. a 1911 and 1851 navys. My 1911 is just too big to conceal in my pants.. Im a 300 lbs guy.. shoving a gun this size in my pants is hard lol. And i dont wear jackets in the summer.

So for now i open carry..

As for the guy whos confused on my aim. Whats confusing about it. The 1911 im fairly accurate at 7-10 yards. Im always within 0-9-8 on the charts... i shoot in the same holes often. But after 15 yards im all over the place. And i think its just lack of experience. However my 1851 navy.. 7-15 yards im always dead center.

I can fire my 1911 9 times in repetition at 15 yards and itll be all over the chart.. i can fire all 6 rounds on my 1851 and ill be in the torso with each round. It just seems im alot more accurate with the reolver than i am with a 1911 at least 15 yards out anyway.

But i wont deny the 1911 i feel safer with.. for obvious reasons. I honestly dont get why people who bring up that i want to pretend to be wyatt erp or wuick draw mcgraw because i carry two 1851 revolvers.

Again i ask why is that so wrong. Other than an immature answer of me wanting to be a overhyped law man from nearly 200 years ago.

Yes i like the 1851 navy more. Is that really so wrong. ?


Also to reply to the reload times. I carry both because both = 10 rounds. Yes the barrel swap is 8 seconds.. yes my 1911 3s reload is slow.. But i also do not train every single day. Im not John wick. Or the guy you see on youtube videos with no recoil firing 15 rounds in 2 seconds. And reloading teo magazines in .5 seconds.

I litterally JUST got these guns 2 months ago lol. ive been to the range 6 times in total. And fired about 500 or so rounds each and maybe 1000 9n my 1911.. thats it. The last two months ive been moving packing. Dealing with home improvements etc. Not sitting in front of a mirror for 3 hours practicing my draw and reload.


I was just being brutally honest on what my capabilities are at this current time.

Also to reply to other comments.. My 1851 navy.. have Never had a cap jam yet on the first 6 rounds fired. Never. Im not saying it wont happen.. but the jamming cylinder and cap jams seem to happen after about 20+ rounds fired. Especially on my steel 1851.. that one gets hard to cock the hammer after the 2nd load.. but the firet 6 shots on both.. its smooth as butter. I finally had a cap missfire yesturday . That was after 500+ shots.

My 1911 though. Which is a rockisland. Has jammed multiple times. The 8th round sometimes doesnt chamber either. Ive lost counts on how many times ive had to fight with that gun.

I did fix it with a new magazine brand MOSTLY. But all im saying is ive never had issues with my 1851s until after it gums up.

Also i load 30 grains. Not 25 lol.

Whats honestly the diff between people carrying modern revolvers. And me carrying a 1851. Besides the slim possibility of a cap jam ? I also carry TWO.. thats 10 shots. And a 2nd gun if one does jam.. but i do get it.. 10 rounds in tens of seconds.. vs 15 rounds from a glock 19 or something.


I am not denying modern handguns are better.. not at all.

Im glad we all had these discussions. I like hearing everyones point of views.

Please dont worry about offending me guys LOL. . Im not a snowflake. Just keep it civil. If you want to name call me which one guy i think wanted to do.. Then i wont take anything you say seriously because you litterally are just a mouth breather with no real opinion thats credible
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Get a Glock. They work out of the box. No break in required, no messing with extractors, feed ramps, Wilson Combat mags, "tight looseness" blah blah blah. Don't like Glock? Fine get a Ruger, H&K, Sig, S&W, Springfield, Beretta, CZ etc etc. Get a modern 9mm, 45, 40 or 10mm that is not a based on a 1911 action. Wanna stick with 45 acp? Most of the above come in 45.

I grew shooting 1911's and finally gave them up 15 years ago. I conceal carry a Ruger LC9S Pro in my pocket or a Glock 19 on my hip.

1851 Navy revolvers are fun guns though.
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You may get alot if people looking at you,when u carry them,but no one has robbed u yet.
A criminal will see them and think twice.
And if they still persist to cause a ruckus...they were going to anyway.
Sure beats not carrying anything
 
I have a CCW and don't open carry in crowded public areas. but I shoot "cap guns" most every other week, and my S&W or my Colt semi-autos about twice a year. So you know what I carry.
 
Risk assessment. It would be foolish to acquire dedicated SD weapon and go through decades of thorough combat shooting training if risk of ever getting into SD situation is low and you already have a BP revolver that could make the shot or two you might need and you train with it as a hobby anyway. As risk of getting into shootout with gang bangers gets higher, reason to ditch BP hobby and focus on ipsc gets higher.

As of whether five or six shots would be enough - yes and no. As late as 1973 French special forces ordered themselves the MR73. They seemed to think 6 shots were enough on enough cases. 50-60% of fights will be over after first hit. On the other hand some yanks found that depending on the caliber (.380 and up) 13-17% of SD shootings did not result in incapacitation no matter how many bullets hit the assailant. 15, 20 or even 40 bullets might not be enough. If you want to be sure they go down you don't need a better pistol or higher capacity. You need a shotgun or rifle.
 
I'm waiting for someone to post how they carry their BP revolver in AIWB and have put a RDS on it. If it is an individual combatant, then a well practiced matchlock volley squad of Japanese from the Tokugawa shogunate might win. So what.

You are correct that being ill trained is a problem. But being trained and better equipped is better. Thus, to go back to the OP, the solution for him was to get a quality semi. learn out to use it and ditch the COS play.
 
6emees said:
Risk assessment.
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That's the name of the game.

6emees said:
It would be foolish to acquire dedicated SD weapon and go through decades of thorough combat shooting training if risk of ever getting into SD situation is low and you already have a BP revolver that could make the shot or two you might need and you train with it as a hobby anyway.
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The idea of "the shot or two you might need" is based on an unrealistic assumption.

6emees said:
As late as 1973 French special forces ordered themselves the MR73. They seemed to think 6 shots were enough on enough cases.
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Irrelevant.

6emees said:
some yanks found that depending on the caliber (.380 and up) 13-17% of SD shootings did not result in incapacitation no matter how many bullets hit the assailant.
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Really? Source?
 
GEM said:
I'm waiting for someone to post how they carry their BP revolver in AIWB and have put a RDS on it. If it is an individual combatant, then a well practiced matchlock volley squad of Japanese from the Tokugawa shogunate might win. So what.

You are correct that being ill trained is a problem. But being trained and better equipped is better. Thus, to go back to the OP, the solution for him was to get a quality semi. learn out to use it and ditch the COS play.
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My father would probably disagree with your assessment. He carried a Ruger Security-Six with a speed loader or two. He wasn’t too big on semi-autos (Always preferred a 1911 in .45 so still just 6 rds). I’m not sure why people feel the need to have one, essentially disregarding anything else as adequate. Sure, if you are a police officer, armored car driver, or often in the wrong places or doing the wrong things having 15+ rounds with additional magazines might be the right idea for you. Most of us don’t and won’t ever see anything like that. As was stated, those that require more than a few solid hits are going to need a shotgun or rifle if you’re wanting immediate results.
 
What does have to do with the initial OP? I've gone over many times the idea that you accept with a 6 shot gun that you have a one or two opponent gun. More intensive incidents or opponents and your time in the fight is limited before needing a reload.

The wrong place mantra is again saying that you decide that you are most likely to run into a single or double economically motivated crook. The wrong place can be anywhere nowadays for a rarer intensive incident.

We've been over this over and over again. I was well served with a stick shift care with no AC and just a radio driving across country several times. So was my dad. Now I have AC and nice electronics. I'm not arguing for retro when I can do better.

Now, this started with the idea of OC'ing a BP revolver. Can we get past that? It's a bad idea. It's also a bad idea not to come up to speed with a modern semi, get instruction.
 
GEM said:
What does have to do with the initial OP? I've gone over many times the idea that you accept with a 6 shot gun that you have a one or two opponent gun. More intensive incidents or opponents and your time in the fight is limited before needing a reload.

The wrong place mantra is again saying that you decide that you are most likely to run into a single or double economically motivated crook. The wrong place can be anywhere nowadays for a rarer intensive incident.

We've been over this over and over again. I was well served with a stick shift care with no AC and just a radio driving across country several times. So was my dad. Now I have AC and nice electronics. I'm not arguing for retro when I can do better.

Now, this started with the idea of OC'ing a BP revolver. Can we get past that? It's a bad idea. It's also a bad idea not to come up to speed with a modern semi, get instruction.
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Oh, I agree that a black powder gun makes an extremely poor SD choice. Smoke, single action, and percussion.

Oh, my father was a career military man with some sort of awards or whatnot for both handgun and rifle. The only person I know of that can shoot better is my old former Marine boss. He owns semi-autos as well, but carried his Security-Six. I’ve been meaning to call him so I suppose I have a few questions for him, one being why he chose what he did, but also his awards. One was Marksman iirc, which I’m sure was rifle. Is he SWAT trained, not at all, but were he not so old these days I’d say he had an advantage over the majority of folks.

As I said I see an advantage personally with a semi-auto myself, but to completely disqualify revolvers as a reasonable means of self protection, to me, is just a bit too much to swallow.


*EDIT*

As I said he had speed loaders, two that I remember so what’s the difference between that or a slim single stack with two additional magazines? I’ve seen my dad shoot that .357 and reload. Pretty quick. As fast as a semi? No. But a revolver is considered more reliable, which is one thing I do recall him talking about when I was a kid. Speed loaders aren’t slow by any means by the way.

My ideal carry gun was always the Safari Arms Enforcer.

Bob Munden might have even disagree with both of us…
 
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As I said I see an advantage personally with a semi-auto myself, but to completely disqualify revolvers as a reasonable means of self protection, to me, is just a bit too much to swallow.
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Oh, I agree with that. My concern was the OP. A pocket J frame is not useless and when dress or circumstances require it, it is a good solution. I have said that I've done that at times but I put in significant time with the J frame to have some competency with it. We know most carriers do little beyond their CCW class (if one is required).

If I had to carry my SW 632 as a belt gun with a couple of speed loaders, I wouldn't see myself as helpless. I've done that and my G26 is easier to carry with almost twice the available rounds. I found my SW Model 19 was a fine gun but for it's size didn't offer that much. Similarly, my 1911 is a fine gun and I shot it this past weekend and because of that, carried it concealed with a couple of extra mags for the best part of the day. However, my 9mm G26 is still easier to carry. Now, if I didn't live in a ban state, it would be a G19 with higher cap mags.

If I were saying my optimal set up with various constraints removed, a G19 or equivalent with an extra mag or two is a reasonable cut off on my view of the risk continuum. It is a configuration I trained with and competed with.

If I had to carry my 632, or 1911 or pocket J - I'm not helpless, I just have a different set of incident limits and tactics.
 
GEM said:
A pocket J frame is not useless and when dress or circumstances require it, it is a good solution. I have said that I've done that at times but I put in significant time with the J frame to have some competency with it. We know most carriers do little beyond their CCW class (if one is required).
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That bears repeating.

GEM said:
If I had to carry my SW 632 as a belt gun with a couple of speed loaders, I wouldn't see myself as helpless.
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"Helpless"? No.

Try looking at it this way. We've seen the recent video in which the LEO had to shoot an attacker six times. We've read the recent account of the home invader who departed and drove away after his intended victim emptied her six shot revolver into him. There was a recent case in which a woman fired several shots at four carjackers; she hit no one, but the perps took off.

How will your event unfold? Forget averages--things don't work that way.

Take a pair of dice. Throw them onto a chess board numerous times. Do not count those what land on dark squares. Count the scores and write them down.

You'll have zeros and ones and numbers that go up to twelve.

That may overstate the numbers of shots needed in defensive incidents, because the dice are not weighted, but it should illustrate the uncertainties inherent in the analysis.

Oh, do remember that you are not looking for the 60% coverage solution. You do not want any failures.
 
Kleanbore said:
That bears repeating.

"Helpless"? No.

Try looking at it this way. We've seen the recent video in which the LEO had to shoot an attacker six times. We've read the recent account of the home invader who departed and drove away after his intended victim emptied her six shot revolver into him. There was a recent case in which a woman fired several shots at four carjackers; she hit no one, but the perps took off.

How will your event unfold? Forget averages--things don't work that way.

Take a pair of dice. Throw them onto a chess board numerous times. Do not count those what land on dark squares. Count the scores and write them down.

You'll have zeros and ones and numbers that go up to twelve.

That may overstate the numbers of shots needed in defensive incidents, because the dice are not weighted, but it should illustrate the uncertainties inherent in the analysis.

Oh, do remember that you are not looking for the 60% coverage solution. You do not want any failures.
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Averages are useful to understand and prepare for the most likely threats and there are many threats so rare we just live with them. Meteors, tsunamis, earthquakes, and needing 6 shots when I only carry 5 and a knife are outlier events I don’t lose sleep over.
 
Were I in the OPs position, but with my NMA, I’d probably carry it while I was figuring out how to make my 1911 reliable or look into trading it in on something else. But since it is a Colt copy I’d say it ill advised as they are prone to cap jams. I’m not sure if they can be made 100% reliable as far as cap jamming.
 
rodwha said:
Were I in the OPs position, but with my NMA, I’d probably carry it while I was figuring out how to make my 1911 reliable or look into trading it in on something else. But since it is a Colt copy I’d say it ill advised as they are prone to cap jams. I’m not sure if they can be made 100% reliable as far as cap jamming.
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They can.
 
I've seen most semis go belly up. Saw a new Sig 365 jam several times this weekend. Had a nasty jam in my 1911 out of about 90 rounds fired. Seen parts fall off a Beretta 92?

Had my reliable G19 go to hell in a very expensive event. Bad mag.

See Glock jam - oh, you reload? Surprise!

See empties screw up the ejector star on a revolver of a national champ.

What else is new?
 
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