Capacity? Yes, please.

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I am still interested in hearing a report on any civilian who has been killed due to only having a J-frame revolver.
. Neither does the armed citizen's weapon choice seem to play a huge role in the outcome of such an encounter.
1. How often is the specific type of firearm used by the defender reported? It's often the case, in my experience, that reporting doesn't even differentiate between revolvers and semi-auto handguns, let alone provide capacity information.

2. How often is information provided in reporting about self-defense encounters that would allow one to make the assessment that weapon choice/capacity was a factor in the outcome of a defensive encounter? In my experience, since it's rare to report how many rounds the defender had in the gun, and often how many were fired isn't reported, it's very rare to be able to nail down the cause of an outcome to anything to do with the weapon. Not because weapons never affect the outcome of defensive encounters, but because there's almost never enough information provided to be able to say one way or the other.
...with any sense of regularity beyond a random data point.
This caveat pretty much allows the dismissal of any incidents provided by calling them "random data points that don't occur with any sense of regularity" unless someone can come up with a large number of qualifying incidents. It's worth noting that this is a quite a dramatic departure of the the stance taken just a few posts up this thread with the statement: "I would be happy with just some anecdotes of real events that could be discussed."

The caveat, combined with a rigid definition of what kinds of events qualify for consideration makes it really very easy to disqualify events from consideration if that's the goal.

Anyway with the understanding that it will be pretty easy to label this event as a "random data point", here's an incident, that shows multiple determined attackers who don't break off the attack when surprised by what they thought was an unarmed attacker. They retreated to their car initially but then came back towards him after he stopped shooting and fired additional shots as the engagement progressed. Does this incident qualify? Well, it's a good example of why if one places enough restrictions on what kind of a scenario qualifies that it can be nearly impossible to find ones that do.

Was there a negative outcome? It doesn't appear either of the "good guys" were hurt, but that information isn't provided. It doesn't seem to be from lack of trying on the bad guys' part. Do we disqualify the event because the bad guys couldn't hit what they were aiming at? I guess we can if the goal is to disqualify events from consideration.

Did the defender have to break off and run due to an empty gun or did he run because he thought it was a great tactic or because he was trying to save his truck? We don't really know because we don't know if the gun was empty and we don't know what he was thinking. Do we disqualify the event because of that? Again, I guess we can if that's the goal.

So, for whatever it's worth, here's an interesting real-world scenario to look at. One can learn lessons from it or dismiss it from consideration for any number of quite valid-sounding reasons.
 
Oh well, it's been a few days since we have had this discussion, so I guess it's time again.

I've had concealed carry 30 years and never "needed" a single bullet for SD.
I live in a "good area" and if I'm out at night its out of the ordinary, rare.

Some would be content to carry a 38 snub or pocket 380 in my situation, perhaps try to justify it with "threat/risk assessment" or "meets my needs"; they are content with the minimum (pocket 380 / 38 snub) where they perceive the odds of need to use it are low and often carry more gun when going to a "bad area" greater perceived threat. This type of behavior is commonly posted on gun forums; it is IMO probably the majority.

I take a different approach. What handgun would I prefer to defend myself with a pocket 380/38 snub or a Glock 19/17/22? The Glock.
Does my preference for the Glock which offers a better grip, trigger, shootability, speed of subsequent shots and capacity change based on where? No.
Am I saying that I carry a Glock 19/17/22 for a "quick trip to the store" in a "good area"? Yes.
Why? Because I think that handgun is advantageous and if I have to defend myself the goal of stopping attackers ASAP is the same anywhere, everywhere.

There is nowhere I'd rather defend myself with a pocket 380/38snub than a Glock 19/17/22.
There is nothing anybody could say that would make me carry a 38 snub/pocket 380 instead of a Glock 19/17/22.
I'm willing and able to carry a handgun I'd prefer in hand to defend myself with anywhere, everywhere. Some people are not, probably the majority.

I don't understand one that is content with the minimum attempting to discourage others with their rationalizations. There is your discussion.
 
“I had too much ammo on me”, was said by no one after a firefight. The old joke is the only time you have too much ammo on you is if you’re drowning or on fire.

My personal anti hijacking plan is unfortunately the cars I drive, both bland and over 10 years old. Probably be hard to find someone willing to take them by force.

And one of them is a stick, they’d never get away with it.
 
Everything is a trade-off. I have a S&W shield 9 and a Kimber pro carry 2 (45)- both 8 shot pistols, both lightweight and easy to conceal. 1 "engagement" that requires 2 rounds (as is the normal practice) with both rounds presumably striking in the A zone, that presumably stops that single threat, presumably with no "what-ifs" in play. Ammunition on board is 25% expended. You see where this is going. Would a preferable handgun to have IN HAND at that time be, say, a Glock 19X with +2 floorplates (19+1 rounds on board), possibly with a mounted RDS and a white light? Absolutely. But such a handgun isn't practical for me to carry concealed, esp. with my small body and Florida attire in which to hide it, and the reload mag I also might need. But it is what I used in the past (minus the RDS) at times and places like what is in my avatar.
 
... and here it is:



In John's opinion, it was primarily tactics and simple bad luck, not the defenders choice of a J-frame, that resulted in the negative outcome. Others may have a different assessment.


It was so sad that the retired firefighter stepped clear of good, hard cover, to continue the engagement, an action which put him into the path of the fleeing bad actor’s gunfire. The J-snub had been enough gun to put the attackers to flight. The battle had been won.
 
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100% fictional and made-up by me a few minutes ago. What I want is somebody post a real-life equivalent that does not involve somebody defending a home/business, an off-duty LE, or a criminal hit/retribution attack. The key is that this equivalent story needs to end with the armed citizen loosing the encounter primarily due to a lack of weapon ammo capacity or caliber insufficiency.
Less is more
 
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The challenge is that there far more that goes into the calculation of what to carry besides caliber and capacity.

Do you drive an economy car, a Suburban, or an F550? If a hydroplaning semi-truck hits you on the interstate, you want to be in the F550, so why would not pick it as your daily driver?



I am not arguing for low capacity (or any sort of legal restriction- good grief). I am just asking, in the wealth of knowledge possessed by the defensive community- all the blogs, SMEs, and recognized trainers, that there are some examples of when a civilian CCW carrier's "poor" choices in armament directly led to his/her downfall.

It doesn't even need to be enough for statically significant "data", just some real life examples that can be reviewed.
Shoot placement trumps capacity
 
First off, considering how badly he was outgunned the victim was very lucky to have lived through it. The fact he did live through it tells me his tactics, including weapon, were sound.

Second, if we arm ourselves for the worse case scenario that has ever happened the streets will be full of Abram tanks and walking we will be staggering under the weight of our weapons and ammunition.

Conclusion, we all make risk assessments of our everyday situation and react accordingly. Some feel a revolver will do the job, others will have an extended triple stack magazine and 18 spares. Personally, I have 38 Super with a 10 round capacity and 2 spares. History of the area says that's more than enough. Should I find myself in an extraordinary situation I can only hope my tactics fit my situation, for in the end it's the tactics that allow survival not capacity. As my dear departed Grandfather told me about my Winchester at one point... if you fire all your bullets in the magazine and find you need more then you either started shooting too soon or shouldn't have been shooting at all.
 
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Yeah- I didn't respond to it because the specific event wasn't applicable to the discussion. What does the conclusion of a police chase with shootout have anything to do with a civilian carrier? Do you chase down armed suspects as a citizen?

Now if you want to discuss what COULD have happened BEFORE the video, I guess that's another topic. Could the perp have killed an armed citizen in shootout? Sure.
Could the armed citizen, being mistaken for a pacifistic victim, landed one in perps conning tower with an immediate lights-out? Sure.

You're watching the conclusion of a police chase with a suspected carjacker THAT STARTED with the carjacker carjacking a Citizen.

If you were that citizen would you want to fight that guy off with a J frame or a Glock 19? Or to keep it somewhat size compatible how about a Glock 26?
 
Appropriate take away #3: Get off the X. Probably kept a bullet out of his brain.
That's the telling part of this discussion.
That should be the #1 takeaway.
I'm not convinced more capacity would have made much difference in this scenario, certainly not as much as getting off the X much earlier, the guy flanking him should have put him in motion. The cashier was lucky the second shooter wasn't the least bit determined.
 
That's the telling part of this discussion.
That should be the #1 takeaway.
I'm not convinced more capacity would have made much difference in this scenario, certainly not as much as getting off the X much earlier, the guy flanking him should have put him in motion. The cashier was lucky the second shooter wasn't the least bit determined.
Agreed.
 
I will maintain my standard daily carry of a 5 to 9 shot primary with reload and a compact BUG until I see something to justify a change.

First, it appears that Mr. Hunter is carrying comprable capacity to most of the rest of us just in a slightly different configuration.

The problem with capacity debates is you're not going to know it's a factor until it's a factor. I'm positive that there are citizen defenders out there who died with an empty gun. I'm also positive that a greater number of citizen defenders died with no gun because they didn't think they'd need it in a given location (CDW4ME's proverbial "good" neighborhood). IMO making a habit of always (within legal limits) being armed is more important than how many rounds you carry.
 
First, it appears that Mr. Hunter is carrying comprable capacity to most of the rest of us just in a slightly different configuration.

The problem with capacity debates is you're not going to know it's a factor until it's a factor. I'm positive that there are citizen defenders out there who died with an empty gun. I'm also positive that a greater number of citizen defenders died with no gun because they didn't think they'd need it in a given location (CDW4ME's proverbial "good" neighborhood). IMO making a habit of always (within legal limits) being armed is more important than how many rounds you carry.

Lets call that step 1 and for many people that is a goal; if they don't always carry they should, wherever possible. We agree.

I'm encouraging the next step after step 1 and it is applicable to some, but not all.
Some people may only have a pocket 380 / 38 snub and they carry it everywhere, good job.

However, some people have options other than the minimum 380/38 but only carry those "better" options when they "feel the need".
Step 2 is carrying the "better" option everywhere; like carrying a Glock 19 everywhere rather than settling for a snub/380 in a "good area".
I futilely encourage step 2 - but I'm not naïve there are some that not going to make it to the next level (step 2). I try to encourage it anyway.
 
Lets call that step 1 and for many people that is a goal; if they don't always carry they should, wherever possible. We agree.

I'm encouraging the next step after step 1 and it is applicable to some, but not all.
Some people may only have a pocket 380 / 38 snub and they carry it everywhere, good job.

However, some people have options other than the minimum 380/38 but only carry those "better" options when they "feel the need".
Step 2 is carrying the "better" option everywhere; like carrying a Glock 19 everywhere rather than settling for a snub/380 in a "good area".
I futilely encourage step 2 - but I'm not naïve there are some that not going to make it to the next level (step 2). I try to encourage it anyway.

I don't bother myself with what other people do
 
Attached is a video from an attempted carjacking from the Chicago suburb I grew up in. Police found 14 shell casings, although they didn't specify how many rounds each of the two people fired. I won't tell others what they should carry as it doesn't affect me, but I don't understand how someone can predict how many rounds you will or won't need. That is simply unknowable.

Edit to add: One of both of these men fired more rounds than a J frame holds. If you watch the video there is no way you can make the argument that capacity didn't matter, as having to reload under these conditions would shift the advantage to the other person.

https://heavy.com/news/2017/05/rona...illinois-gas-station-shootout-shooting-video/
 
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Citizens dies reloading his revolver: Larry

People content to carry snubs (revolvers): "Show me a civilian example where somebody with a revolver ...."
Okay, here you go, watch video.
People still content to carry snubs (revolvers): "That example doesn't count because ..."

Okay, here are examples where 5 hits failed to quickly incapacitate a single attacker:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/do-examples-incidents-matter-to-you.902897/
People content to carry snubs (revolvers) no matter what: "Those examples don't matter because it was LE or ..."
 
People content to carry snubs (revolvers): "Show me a civilian example where somebody with a revolver ...."

Why does it matter what anyone else carries? Why should anyone care?

You don't want to carry a snubbie, don't! It's that simple. Carry what YOU feel comfortable with and don't concern yourself with what others choose to carry.

People are gong to make their choices based on their own personal likes, proficiency and lifestyle. A smart person will form his tactics around what he chooses to carry. The person who is limited to 5 or 6 rounds in his snubby hopefully knows that he can't engage in a gunfight that would be a good scene in an action movie. That person likely knows that his best option if confronted with that situation is to break contact, not stand and fight.
 
Why does it matter what anyone else carries? Why should anyone care?

You don't want to carry a snubbie, don't! It's that simple. Carry what YOU feel comfortable with and don't concern yourself with what others choose to carry.

People are gong to make their choices based on their own personal likes, proficiency and lifestyle. A smart person will form his tactics around what he chooses to carry. The person who is limited to 5 or 6 rounds in his snubby hopefully knows that he can't engage in a gunfight that would be a good scene in an action movie. That person likely knows that his best option if confronted with that situation is to break contact, not stand and fight.

:(
An analogy.
If I didn't want feedback (discussion) on my oil changes I would not post on car forum whether I change the oil at 3k, 5k, or __% left on reminder.
If I post on a car forum that I do full synthetic oil changes every 3k I might (should) expect feedback, discussion.
I don't know if the people giving me feedback "care" about my oil changes, its just them posting their opinion or what they do.

If people post on gun forums, it would seem to me that they might expect discussion or feedback about what they post. I do.
This thread is obviously in favor of capacity; but, some people that don't value capacity posted replies, which is expected. They might expect a reply.
My comments about possible reaction to the video, which I appreciated that @DT Guy posted, were in support of his post.
I'm just replying to the people that chose to post in my pro capacity thread.
 
Citizens dies reloading his revolver:

Larry


People content to carry snubs (revolvers): "Show me a civilian example where somebody with a revolver ...."
Okay, here you go, watch video.
People still content to carry snubs (revolvers): "That example doesn't count because ..."

A bar argument spills into the parking lot and turns into a gun fight. Sheriff mentions motorcycle gang then quickly changes the term to motorcycle group. Not sure if the first description the Sheriff gave is a public slip of the truth or not. Due to lack of content, can't tell if the drunk instigator has some sort of prior disagreement with the motorcylists or was simply hitting up on their women in front of them.

Around here it's illegal to carry into bars and it's illegal to carry while drunk. So, a typical law abiding license holder either wouldn't be in the bar, or they wouldn't be carrying while in the bar and drinking. Which means that a typical law abiding license holder in that environment would likely be unarmed and have no firearm to reload whatsoever.
 
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