Capacity ? Article
- Thread starter Buckeye63
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redcon1
member
Why do we have to limit our discussion to examples of civilians? Why do police need large capacity magazines if they're so useless? And soldiers? Clearly they offer an advantage of some kind. Why should civilians be denied that advantage? And furthermore, as I have already pointed out, perhaps there are very few examples in the recent history of DS combat reloads because most shooters are carrying pistols that hold 15+ rounds in the magazine negating the need for a reload.
And I have provided a real world example of a 2 person gun fight that did involve multiple magazine swaps and the discharge of 54 rounds over the course of 56 seconds. The perp was hit with 14 rounds of .45 acp. 6 of those hits were fatal but, despite that, he remained combat effective and was able to fire 21 rounds off before a well placed CNS shot finally stopped him. That was just one guy and more and more we're seeing gang attacks where there are multiple perpetrators assaulting an objective like a military force. And again, as I already pointed out, these gangsters already have us outgunned. They have fully automatic machine pistols and you're arguing that we don't need more than 10 rounds of ammunition? No thank you.
There are too many good reasons to carry a high cap type firearm and there are absolutely zero good reasons not to.
redcon1
member
I'll take that chance but thank you for your warning.
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redcon1
member
And?
TomJ
Contributing Member
I saw this article yesterday but didn't post it here as we just had two caliber wars. From my experience having lived in the Chicago area until a year and a half ago, Masaad Ayoob is spot on. I'm now living in a small Wisconsin town where violent crime is minimal and also understand why someone who doesn't know anything other than this environment is puzzled by the need for a 15 round magazine. The best advice I can give is to make a decision based on what's best for you and those you want to protect, not what someone on an internet forum who you'll most likely never meet thinks.
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.455_Hunter
Member
True, unless that "have" instigates other life challenges, such as NPE issues. The high-capacity duty platform and two spare mags carried to be prepared for the rarest of circumstances doesn't do much good to you or family when it causes you to get fired from your job because it was discovered when you slipped on some spilled water in the break room.
trackskippy
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That applies to anything, especially if your lacking at choosing your gear.
Some of us successfully carry/carried a full sized handgun with reloads on a daily basis in NPE's, and never had any issues doing so. And getting fired was the least of it.
And in reality anymore, the difference in size between realistic guns, is not very much. And in some cases, the autos are smaller than the revolvers. A six shot Model 10 or 19 snubby is roughly the same size as a Glock 17.
There are 300 million+ civilians in the US. If you can't come up with even one example in the last 10, 20, 30 years regarding a civilian it seems like that kind of proves the point.
Most of the gear soldiers and police carry is not something I carry. Bees, wasps, hornets kill 60 people per year. It seems like carrying bee spray with me would be more logical than an extra magazine.
I haven't read any posts here where the poster was suggesting that civilians be "denied" that advantage, only that they didn't think they they needed it. Big difference.
Space to carry it would be a good reason. That's why I don't carry an extra most of the time.
starnbar
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don't have to be but you are still responsible for your rounds
redcon1
member
I have provided a great example and I don't think I need to limit my examples to strictly civilian cases any more than I think I need to limit the number of rounds in my sidearm. The internet is full of examples of civilians that were killed because of an acute lack of shooting back. There are countless such examples in fact.
dweis
Member
I concur with Ayoob’s opinion. Years ago I carried a Ruger LC9s with 7+1 and an extra 7 round magazine. Today I carry a Ruger Security 9 Compact with 15+1 and two additional 15 round magazines. Going from 14+1 to 45+1 is quite an increase. I made the switch for the reasons Ayoob enumerated. The rapid increase in mass shootings, carjackings, and home invasions made me think about my exposure.
In Nam we learned to always plan for the worst case scenario. Initially thinking that the VC wold not be adept in war fighting, we quickly learned that they had all sorts of surprises for us in a firefight. So we added shotguns to every squad. A grenade launcher was on every patrol. We carried extra ammo over the standard load-out. We matched their slyness and terrain advantages with greater lethality. Simply stated: more was better.
Today I subscribe to the tenet that Kafka wrote: “it is better to have and not need than to need and not have.” I may never have to shoot more than one round, but if the need to shoot dozens arises I will have the supply.
In Nam we learned to always plan for the worst case scenario. Initially thinking that the VC wold not be adept in war fighting, we quickly learned that they had all sorts of surprises for us in a firefight. So we added shotguns to every squad. A grenade launcher was on every patrol. We carried extra ammo over the standard load-out. We matched their slyness and terrain advantages with greater lethality. Simply stated: more was better.
Today I subscribe to the tenet that Kafka wrote: “it is better to have and not need than to need and not have.” I may never have to shoot more than one round, but if the need to shoot dozens arises I will have the supply.
lysanderxiii
Member
You never need more than seven rounds in the magazine.
Until you do . . .
Until you do . . .
.455_Hunter
Member
John Q. Citizen is not a police officer and does not have the responsibilities of a police officer. John Q. Citizen is not obligated to respond to armed robbery and pursue the perp until engagement, like what occured in the Gramins incident.
If you have some applicable examples of EDC John Q. Citizen's use of an elevated capacity magazines capabilities, please share. And no, the story of some proprietor of a pawn/jewelry/gun store isn't what we are looking for, nor some home invasion scenario.
About the thugs with happy switches- either you get caught in the initial burst or two, or you don't. Your return firepower capability is rather moot.
redcon1
member
That's not really a good reason though and, in fact, it's a very poor reason to impose such a handicap on others who have both the need and the space. And btw, I did a review of Duluth carpenter blue jeans a while back right here on THR that come with a spare magazine carrier on the right leg. It's too easy to drop a magazine right in that pocket if you're the kind of person that wears blue jeans at least. That was the point of that post, to illustrate just how easy it can be to carry a spare magazine if it is something you want to to do. Those jeans are great btw. I wear a pair every day and have no problem carrying a spare magazine for my 19x in it. You hardly even notice it.
redcon1
member
As I have already pointed out, there are countless examples of John Q Citizens being overwhelmed by gangland assault teams and dying from a lack of shooting back. It is not incumbent upon me to provide you further examples and, you'[re moving the goal posts all over the field now. Now we can't use examples of civilian store owners or home invasions? I just have to laugh. You aren't going to be convinced by anything anyone says. I get that. I'm just happy to know where you're coming from at this point Mr. Hunter. Have a great day.
It all depends what your goals are. If you want to mitigate a possible risk event, attacker or attackers, you carry or are armed. If you want to manage the risk by carrying or having higher capacity, great, you have lowered the risk a bit. If you think whatever firearm you have will remove 100% of that risk, you are wrong. Don't rely on it, use your head, be someplace else ... and honestly, if like the guy says in the video as an example of why capacity in modern times matters, if you're really worried about a gang home invasion, IMHO - you don't want any pistol, you want a rifle.
You're free to make decisions based on what happens in the battlefield. I'll make decisions based on the realities of my boring lifestyle and the boring city I live in.
.455_Hunter
Member
Please link to some of these countless instances where the civilian responds with a firearm, but the weapon's caliber/capacity/lack of reload contributes to the negative outcome.
redcon1
member
A rifle is almost always a better self defense tool than a handgun but most of us don't have the luxury of keeping a rifle at the ready at all times inside the home or outside (or the desire to do so) but a high capacity handgun fills the gap nicely and is too easy to keep within an arms reach at all times and is perfectly capable of repelling multiple armed attackers intent on breaching your home's perimeter. And maybe they get in and kill you anyways but at least you didn't die from lack of shooting back.
Charlie98
Member
Going through the TX CHL (now the LTC or License to Carry...) we were told it was to 'stop the threat' that has presented itself and endangered your life, etc. I would agree that a subset of that responsibility would be to not get engaged if you don't have to, or to, as you say, break contact and get away once the festivities have started. Trust me, the last thing I want to do is get into a lengthy engagement of gunfire.
+1. Everyone has their own perception of what they think might be required, and how they approach that. This argument also circles back to what each person is able to carry, concealed or otherwise, based on your particular state or locality, and about 75 other factors. Carrying a double-stack and 2 spares doesn't give you an advantage if you have to bury it under clothes to remain concealed, given what might turn out to be an immediate situation.
In my case, I carry a single-stack automatic. I can hide it, I can draw it reliably, I can shoot it well. If 7+1 doesn't get it done, well, my plan didn't work... I'll see you on the other side.
redcon1
member
Which examples are you going to allow me to use? Home invasions and shop owners are apparently off limits. I'm going to reject those limitations however.
mcb
Member
Capacity is always good (see my previous post for exceptions) but what is more important is knowing how many rounds you have and working that into your actions/plans. If you're carrying a J-frame and no reload you're very likely going to have a different reaction to some bad situation than if you have a Glock 17 and two reloads or an AR-15 and a plate carrier full of magazines. The goal for most civilians involved in a self-defenses situation is to get yourself out of the bad situation not eliminate all the threats. Capacity gives you more options but does not change the fact that we should be trying to escape not eliminate the threats.
In any bad situation you find yourself you balance you assets versus your needs and make do with what you have.
And my two favorite quote for any thread on capacity and similar...
“A weapon is a tool," she repeated, a little breathlessly. "A tool for killing and destroying. And there will be times when, as an Envoy, you must kill and destroy. Then you will choose and equip yourself with the tools that you need. But remember the weakness of weapons. They are an extension--you are the killer and destroyer. You are whole, with or without them.” - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon <-Spectacular modern Noir/Cyberpunk novel, the first of an exceptional trilogy.
"When your mind is a weapon, you are never unarmed" - Malcolm X
In any bad situation you find yourself you balance you assets versus your needs and make do with what you have.
And my two favorite quote for any thread on capacity and similar...
“A weapon is a tool," she repeated, a little breathlessly. "A tool for killing and destroying. And there will be times when, as an Envoy, you must kill and destroy. Then you will choose and equip yourself with the tools that you need. But remember the weakness of weapons. They are an extension--you are the killer and destroyer. You are whole, with or without them.” - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon <-Spectacular modern Noir/Cyberpunk novel, the first of an exceptional trilogy.
"When your mind is a weapon, you are never unarmed" - Malcolm X
.455_Hunter
Member
Because they are not related to public EDC by John Q. Citizen. However, an incident involving an armed customer at a shop would be applicable.
And we will continue to say that they have limited relevance to the topic at hand.
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