Load development process

Hoo boy, you're in for a big debate here. The Satterlee method is pretty simple and can supposedly identify your nodes in 10 rounds, but you need a chronograph. Some people say it's bunk and the only way to find truly repeatable nodes is with a lot more testing. Optimum Charge Weight (OCW) method uses more components but does pretty much what the Satterlee method does. Some people say it's bunk too. You might want to look those up and see if they're worth trying.

Now where did I put that popcorn munching deer gif?

You want the best rated bullet for accuracy and humane kills. Then back the data into the bullet.

The rifle itself has to be taken into consideration. Sub-moa groups from a standard hunting taper or “sporting” taper can be hard to come by. Current production rifles are better than yesteryear, however you’d be very lucky and maybe put in quite a bit of work to get under 1 MOA. However, there are some gains to be made in brass prep such as fire-formed cases with minimal shoulder bump compared to a full length resizing. The better your cartridges fit your chamber, the better off you are.

Powder is next. Temperature stable powder is preferred. Getting a powder to fill your case as near to the seated bullet base which is “powder density” is good. If you list your caliber and twist, specific bullet and weight, and powder/load data, those on here with load development software can run a profile that will help with that. Check out Gordon’s Reloading Tool - is free. QuickLoad is not.

Extreme Spread is important to my reloading. Once I find a good powder with good powder density and a load in the upper fps range, then I load a few to check ES. I want under, say, 30 fps. Under 20 is better. At this point, I start to look at groups. Three shot will tell you a lot. Once you like a group, up that number to see if everything stays the same.

I personally don’t chase lands and am at .050 gap these days. Your rifle may vary.

There have been a bunch of discussions on here lately that have been very good. Some of these are fairly sophisticated and concern PRS or F-class shooters. It’s best to keep in mind that some of the rifles involved are precision.

If you put me in a corner about methods, Scott Satterlee‘s may work for you.


Remember though that he’s a PRS competitor and has custom guns and barrels.

I cannot imagine a simple process to arrive at sub MOA loads in hunting rifles. Still takes work in match rifles.

The shooting community wants Benchrest rifle accuracy in everything. These expectations are un realistic, hard to know if they are advertising induced, or whether the advertising is simply feeding a mass delusion that was already there.

And perhaps the main problem is, to shoot sub MOA groups, the shooter has to be capable to shooting sub MOA groups. Marksmanship is a skill. That is getting easier with the trend to shoot all rifles off 600 lb concrete benches, with the rifle on top of a rest and sand bags. Of course, lose the bench, the rest and bags, and the self proclaimed "World Class Shot" is not going to hit the side of a barn from inside.

For me, load development always starts by asking the good shooters I know, what they are using for powders, bullets, and loads. If the cartridge has a good enough following, a good load is already out there.

Since you have not revealed what cartridge you are thinking about, can't offer any guidance on powders or bullets, or anything.

If you can make a hunting rifle shoot a ten shot sub MOA group, you are doing well. If you are only shooting three shot groups, it is easy to shoot sub MOA. Shoot a bunch of three shot groups, and based on statistical randomness, you will get a sub MOA group. You can use that target to claim you do all the time.

Here is an example. A ten shot groups turned into three sub MOA groups, plus a flyer. I am so amazing!




Of course, that's not precision, it is however, narcissism.

The rifle would have to be a given. If not all bets are off as far as working up a good reload.

Choose one of the tests listed by barnfrog, read and understand the test and follow it. Those tests were developed to give results by the best their is....

Slamfire said:

I cannot imagine a simple process to arrive at sub MOA loads in hunting rifles. Still takes work in match rifles.

The shooting community wants Benchrest rifle accuracy in everything. These expectations are un realistic, hard to know if they are advertising induced, or whether the advertising is simply feeding a mass delusion that was already there.

And perhaps the main problem is, to shoot sub MOA groups, the shooter has to be capable to shooting sub MOA groups. Marksmanship is a skill. That is getting easier with the trend to shoot all rifles off 600 lb concrete benches, with the rifle on top of a rest and sand bags. Of course, lose the bench, the rest and bags, and the self proclaimed "World Class Shot" is not going to hit the side of a barn from inside.

For me, load development always starts by asking the good shooters I know, what they are using for powders, bullets, and loads. If the cartridge has a good enough following, a good load is already out there.

Since you have not revealed what cartridge you are thinking about, can't offer any guidance on powders or bullets, or anything.

If you can make a hunting rifle shoot a ten shot sub MOA group, you are doing well. If you are only shooting three shot groups, it is easy to shoot sub MOA. Shoot a bunch of three shot groups, and based on statistical randomness, you will get a sub MOA group. You can use that target to claim you do all the time.

Here is an example. A ten shot groups turned into three sub MOA groups, plus a flyer. I am so amazing!

Of course, that's not precision, it is however, narcissism.

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I’d point out that what this 10-shot group does show is that he’d pretty centered on the bull and can have confidence in his reticle. I’m guessing he’s zero’d an inch high at a 100 yards. I might take it left one click, but what the heck, it’s still a small sample.

TSchwab25 said:

What is the most basic load development process to do for hunting loads? I'm sure I could ask 100 people and get 100 answers, but everything I can find online is just overwhelming. I can't seem to find a simple, basic process that will work to get sub-moa groups at 100 yards, without wasting a lot of supplies. I have already found an okay load for one of my rifles but I would like to develop a load for it with match bullets because I have some and don't have another rifle for it. I appreciate any help I can get cause I sure need it...

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Hunting loads using match bullets? Suppose it depends on what one is hunting, but in general, hunting bullets built to expand on impact to impart bullet's energy so as to damage vital organs to put animal down. Match bullets don't do that.....so get wounded animals running around vs. DRT. Not good.

Aside from that, I was in same place as OP a couple years back. As others have noted........there is that three legged stool consisting of the rifle (including optics), the shooter and the ammo. GA Precision in Kansas City sells rifles with MOA guarantee of as low as 3/8" using factory match ammo. They stipulate factory match ammo, but that means ammo that is not fitted to the rifle. Many others do the same. Those run about $5,000 for rifle alone, but that takes the rifle variable off the table. Knowing that, if your rifle won't shoot the same using same match grade ammo, then either rifle or shooter are going to be limiting factors. Not saying that can't become a one hole wonder, but may take some work to get there. But your benchmark for accuracy has to start with what factory ammo will do. More on that to follow.

But as to that simple process OP was wanting, what I have come to is this...........there are a few things that work to enhance accuracy that do not involve burning thru components. One is to set up sizing dies to resize fire formed brass to the rifle's chamber. A shoulder bump of only 1 to 2 thousands. Enough to get rounds to always chamber. For hunting rounds, that means ALWAYS chamber. So more shoulder bump than what a target shooter might risk. Does that mean accuracy just slipped a notch? Maybe, maybe not.

Same for seating depth of bullets. Factory ammo all built to SAMMI specs to chamber in all rifles. You can do the same, or play with seating to the lands and then altering seating depth in increments to try to find a node. But that means burning thru components.

So now we are down to the nuts and bolts of it. As others have noted, for most of the standard calibers, there are some "pet loads" that seem to work well in a lot of rifles. This wheel has already been invented. No need to do anything but duplicate it. An example would be somewhere around 46 to 47 grains of Varget under a 150 grain bullet in 308 Win, with bullet seated to same COAL listed on load data. There are others using other powders, but the "pet load" pattern tends to repeat. Another pattern that tends to repeat is best combination of accuracy and velocity often comes with a nearly full to slightly compressed powder charge. The pet loads often end up there.

So when you pick that powder / bullet combination to try, the starting place is the MAX load, then back up in increments to get to your starting place. Best way to determine the increment I've seen so far is to use 1% of max load. So if max load is 50 grains of powder, then increment is .5 grains. If 40, then .4 grains, etc. The increment is enough that changes in powder show up as accuracy nodes. Groups open and close as you pass thru the nodes. In general, one can back down about 5 to 6 increments from max to find a safe starting place to work up from. Assuming 3 to 4 shots per increment, that means about 15 to 20 shots to find something that will work for you. If accuracy and velocity are up to snuff, load a few more at that level, and if it repeats and you are happy with the result, you are done.

If you want to fine tune it, and don't mind burning thru more components, you can then take the load you found above, and do the same by altering seating depth in 3 thousands increments. But again if this is for hunting ammo, you have to ask yourself if the fraction of an inch gain you get is really going to matter enough to burn thru all those components to get there. In most cases, it will not. A deer shot at 80 yards won't notice the difference.

So once I adopted process outlined above, i was quickly able to get to sub MOA groups for two hunting rifles I am loading for. Then there was a 3rd. Factory ammo wouldn't shoot better than 2" groups, but since I had found good loads for other rifles, I remained convinced there WAS a load out there that would make this rifle into a shooter. But no matter what I tried, could never get it to MOA or better. Over 200 rounds later, rifle and I ended up at a gun smith's shop where a bore scope revealed deep pitted corrosion running coast to coast up and down the barrel, meaning the barrel was toast. It was never going to do better than 1 to 2 MOA no matter what I did.

So that rifle gets a new barrel and we start over.

BTW, when testing loads for accuracy, you really don't care where they land, as long as they all land in the same place. But once you decide on a load to use for hunting, then it matters. Depending on rifle, my goal is to get them to 1 to 2 inches high at 100 yards. Good time to confirm loads for accuracy is when walking the impact from where it was to where you want it to be. Two objectives met from one action.

If you’re in a real hurry, go to Nosler’s online load data and pick their bullet and most accurate powder combination:


It’ll be surprisingly good in just a few shots.

You did say hunting,, but you also said sub Moa.
Those are two different goals. For hunting, 1 1/2 to 2moa is usually sufficient. If the rifle is capable either you get lucky and find sub moa or you put in the time and effort to fine tune things like seating depth, neck tension, run out, etc.
I'm not going to get into all those, but I will share my general process for picking a hunting load.

For me:
Step 1: Pick my bullet. If I know all my shots will be about 100yds or less, I might use an SST, CX, or similar. If I know I'm gonna have 200yd+ possibility, then I'm probably going SGK, Eldx, TTSX, or some kind of cup-core like the Interlock. If the range is gonna be zero yds to possibly something past 300yds, its gonna be ELDX.

Step 2: Find an approximate speed that's recommended for that bullet. A TTSX needs to go faster than a Sst
.

3: Choose a temp stable powder that gets you that speed with the most case fill.

4. Pick a COAL. I generally start with the recommended coal unless I've already found this particular rifle or bullet likes more or less jump.

5. Load a ladder in 0.5 grain increments that, according to published data, should get me a hundred FPS below and above my target speed, staying below max charge of course.
I usually load 5rds at each weight. 3 for group, and two spares in case the chronograph mis reads or I know I pulled a shot.

6. Pick a winner and fine tune the charge up and down in 0.1gr increments to see if it improves the group. I'm more concerned with what the target tells me at this point than I am the chronograph. If the chrono says my Es is 100, but my group is sub moa, I'm trusting the group more until I checking to see if it's repeatable or not. If I can shoot 3 similar groups, each from a cold bore, then I'm happy, if not, then back up and try one of the other "Winners".

To choose my "Winner", I'm looking for the smallest group that is also more horizontal. I'll pick a 1" group that is horizontal over a 1" group that strings vertical. Why?
Two reasons. First, if the group is horizontal, you know your velocity is consistent. Second: Assuming you are shooting supported on a bipod, bags, or a sled, error that is induced by the shooter is likely to be more horizontal.

6. Assuming I've got consistent cold bore groups at this point, if I want to see if I can tighten up any more, this is where I start playing with seating depth. (coal).

Remember...for the most of us, rifles today are capable of fine accuracy, better than 25 years ago. There may be some real stinkers among them, but also fewer than yesteryear. US...the shooter...is the main variable, and some of us realize that 3000+ fps is not absolutely necessary. "Garden variety", less expen$ive projectiles by major manufacturers are EXCELLENT! A 1 1/2 inch group or smaller at 100 yards is very acceptable accuracy, generally easily obtained, and effective out to a reasonable distance for most of us...3-400 yards. If you can find it, in a back issue of either HANDLOADER OR RIFLE magazine there is an article by John Barsness; "Loads that Work". Very useful! Also in the same volume...iirc...is an article on annealing brass, verified by a metallurgist, using a candle. The only danger is burning your fingers. (Don't ask!) Good luck!

Pick a bullet, pick a powder, pick a charge in the middle of the data from your favorite book data, load it, shoot it, it does ok, you're done.

From there you can complicate it as much as you want, skies the limit.

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That's pretty much the down and dirt, all there is to it, is to do it.

I usually pick the bullet, then run through half a dozen manuals jotting down the slower end powders for the cartridge and bullet weight. Then I look at velocities and pressures for the most listed and try to choose the one getting the best velocity with the lesser top end pressure. It don't always work out but that's where I like to start.

Most of what I shoot has a sweet spot between 2750 and 2900fps. Once I get a load that is within that range, and shows some potential I'll go from there. If your shooting from a magazine that limits your OAL to start with so I start there and work back in .005" increments. Shoot three and see. Once things come together I load a bunch and start testing at longer ranges.

If you are single feeding, start off the lands .010-.030" and go from there. I never like to seat touching or into the lands just in case the temp messes with the powder and increases pressure.

Hope that helps...

NMexJim said:

I’d point out that what this 10-shot group does show is that he’d pretty centered on the bull and can have confidence in his reticle. I’m guessing he’s zero’d an inch high at a 100 yards. I might take it left one click, but what the heck, it’s still a small sample.

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I wish I had such a good plan. This was a rifle I purchased from the old Gun Club President. He had the pre 64 M70 converted to 300 Win Mag. And he had been shooting the thing for several decades, and not being happy with it. The thing is, Ole Gun Club Pres does not clean his firearms. And when I examined this rifle, I could not see rifling! Luckily he had a bore brush around and I ran that brush about 20 times and was able to determine the bore did not look pitted.

Ole Pres also gave me a box of ammunition, some fired cases, some loaded. I looked at all the charges and they reflected the loading manuals of the 1970's. That is, all the loads were as much as five grains above today's maximums!

When I decided to look at the reloads, this corroded case caught my eye


It was in the box, bullet down, and the front is obviously corroded. This happens when nitrogen dioxide (NO2) from old deteriorated gunpowder leaks past the bullet and settles in the box. So, what did the inside of these cases look like?







the powder did not look bad, except for the brass corrosion particles stuck to some,



there are posters here who claim that old gunpowder is safe to use. When I can see obvious signs of gunpowder deterioration, I am not going to use the stuff, and run the risk of blowing up my rifle. I sure did not want to use cases that were corroded internally.

Old Pres had given me a can of that powder ten years before, and back then I did not see anything funny over the chronograph.




But that is only 15 shots or so. Maybe if I had tried harder, I could have found that round that went from deflagration to detonation. Stuff happens with old energetics. Maybe the first old mortar round takes out the crew, maybe the 50th. I don't know how many rounds had been fired before the one blew that killed Combat Photographer Specialist Hilda Clayton and the mortar crew,nor do I know the age. But you can see the pictures that were taken just as the "training" round went off.


Anyway, looking at Ole Pres's notes, he had written "finally got a good group!" This was after years of testing. But remember, his barrel was jacketed fouled from throat to muzzle. His good five shot group was probably a statistical aberration. I decided to use cheap Hornady 150 FMJ's and just picked a middle of the road charge from a modern loading manual and all I wanted to know was, whether I could get on paper. I also dipped every bullet in hair gel, which is a mix of vasoline and perfume. I was very happy to find that there was absolutely no trace of jacket fouling in the tube when I finished shooting. The scope is some 70's 6X Luepold relic, and coin slotted for adjustment. It is not click adjustable, and I have had the experience of reticle jump with old scopes. Make an adjustment, shoot, nothing happens, shoot again, and maybe again, and then the group moves. It is best with old scopes to leave them alone once you are "there". I was just trying to get centered and see if the thing would shoot round groups.

And I quit, probably before I had shot 30 rounds. The thing kicks.

But the fact I shot a two inch group gives me encouragement to fully bed the action in the aftermarket stock, and use better bullets. I have lots of 190 SMK bullets. And lots of AA4350. Might as well blow them all downrange.

I took a rest from pulling all the bullets from all the WW2 IMR4831 cases, but each batch, I found internal corrosion. I will figure out what to do with the base corroded bullets later. Might shoot them, after all, I do not expect sub MOA from a hunting rifle. If I could get a 1.5 MOA ten shot group, I would go hunting with it, were I so inclined.

How many deer have been taken with lever action 30-30's that shoot 3 to 4 inches at 100 yards? Millions maybe?

these are the good groups. I had loads that would not stay on the paper.

TSchwab25 said:

What is the most basic load development process to do for hunting loads? I'm sure I could ask 100 people and get 100 answers, but everything I can find online is just overwhelming. I can't seem to find a simple, basic process that will work to get sub-moa groups at 100 yards, without wasting a lot of supplies. I have already found an okay load for one of my rifles but I would like to develop a load for it with match bullets because I have some and don't have another rifle for it. I appreciate any help I can get cause I sure need it...

Click to expand...

Well there’s not much information here to work with so let’s start with the basics: what are you hunting that requires sub minute-of-angle accuracy at 100yds to get a clean kill? What rifle? Cartridge? What part of the planet?

All of these little details are going to change the answer.

Just a single data point but an example of some of the difficulties of getting small groups from hunting rifles.

I have a Rem 700 chambered in 17 Rem with a slender barrel. It shoots two or three shots with clover leaf groups, Then the barrel has heated up enough that accuracy goes to hell in an hand basket.

The rifle itself has a definite affect on accuracy when looking for the best ammunition. Keep that in mind and it will make developing loads a but more difficult.

I admire the patience that bench rest shooters have in working up ammunition for their rifles.

Trying to make match grade ammunition for a hunting rifle can be exhausting also an exercise in what not to do. I keep my hunting loads very basic - tuning my match loads for a comp rifle are never ending.

TSchwab25 said:

What is the most basic load development process to do for hunting loads?

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See if it works, if it doesn’t change 1 thing at a time until it does.

It’s the same for target loads except they don’t need much killing ability.

TSchwab25 said:

This bullet will mainly be used for varmints such as woodchucks and maybe coyotes out to about 300-400 yards. When I say sub-moa, I'm not looking for 1 hole groups but rather 1" or less at 100 yards. It may be overkill, but it would be nice. It's a savage 110 that I know can and will shoot 3/4 moa groups if I do my part with the right ammo, and sometimes a bit less. I hunt mostly in fields and such on a farm where I can expect a 300yd plus shot sometimes. I'm not so much looking to get the perfect load within a couple tries but I don't want to go overkill if I don't need to.

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Ok, Savage 110 is a plus, haven't seen one yet that wasn't sub moa with the right ammo.
Now, we might be of further help if we knew what caliber it is. I'm venturing a guess that its 22-250?

TSchwab25 said:

This bullet will mainly be used for varmints such as woodchucks and maybe coyotes out to about 300-400 yards. When I say sub-moa, I'm not looking for 1 hole groups but rather 1" or less at 100 yards. It may be overkill, but it would be nice. It's a savage 110 that I know can and will shoot 3/4 moa groups if I do my part with the right ammo, and sometimes a bit less. I hunt mostly in fields and such on a farm where I can expect a 300yd plus shot sometimes. I'm not so much looking to get the perfect load within a couple tries but I don't want to go overkill if I don't need to.

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You need to declare the caliber and bullets you’re currently using and the bullet you want to switch to before anyone can help beyond generic input.

Hugger-4641 said:

Ok, Savage 110 is a plus, haven't seen one yet that wasn't sub moa with the right ammo.
Now, we might be of further help if we knew what caliber it is. I'm venturing a guess that its 22-250?

Click to expand...

Sometimes I think people have these long, detailed conversations in their head and they just assume the rest of the world can hear it.