Those who've had a ND, and those who are going to.

How about you just do the latter

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The principle of double-checking, because we humans make mistakes. You check and have someone else check. If no one else is around, check twice: once visually, once by feeling the empty charge holes with your finger, or by pushing the ejector.

It is harder to mess up a double-check than a single-check. I prefer double-checks to unexpected loud noises.

Not always true but my jeep shot itself with a 357 when I was dove hunting last year.I was driving across a field with my 357 in the center console it managed to move the hammer enough to set of the primer and take a nice chunk out of the console and lodge itself in the dash.I'm glad it was aimed straight forward and I was alone .To this day I cannot figure out how it happened.but I learned my lesson got a cheapo holster with a thumb break and super glued it into my new console so the gun cannot move.http://www.thehighroad.org/images/smilies/uhoh2.gif

Only unexpected bang I've ever had was with a Mauser that had a faulty safety. Had it on target, pulled trigger. The gun didn't go off and I realized I still had the safety on. Flipped the safety off and the gun went off. No real harm - the gun was still pointed downrange and the round shot in a harmless direction, but I did have to have some work done on that gun.

"Those who've had a ND, and those who are going to."

So you think that since you were careless and had a ND that all other gun-owners are going to do the same. Not gunna happen.

I've had one AD and one ND. The AD was trying to get the mag out of my kids 22 - not being familiar with the gun and its operation, and accidentally got the bugger hook on the bang switch.

The second was simply negligence on my part, screwing around with my revolver after cleaning it.

Fortunately in neither case was any one harmed.

Malfunctioning guns are always ripe for an ND.

Don't use it as an excuse though.

The title of your thread is BS. Keep that attitude and you will have another one.

Let's take it easy now, folks.

I had my first UD (unintentional discharge) after 34 years of shooting. We are all human and make mistakes and have mental lapses. Like you my UD did no harm other than make a hole in my bedroom wall. I had it pointed to the unworked farm next to my house so no one was in danger. It startled me so much that I almost pulled the trigger again. I was disoriented and somehow thought I may have shot a round into our guest bedroom where we had guest staying. The noise of the .45 had my ears ringing until I woke up the next morning.

It is often said that there are those that have had ND and those that are just waiting to have them. When I told others I was surprised that alot of members in my gun club had them also and it is not very rare in competitions either. When someone who never had one gets all preachy about it I just tell them that perhaps they do not shoot enough because if you handle a gun thousands of times the odds are that you will have an accident. Even professionals have them. Telling others to simply keep your finger off the trigger is like telling someone to drive safe. Does nothing to reduce the number of accidents.

For me the most important rule of safe gun handling is to always make sure that when I pull the trigger the gun is pointed in a safe direction. I also now keep all my guns loaded at home (no children and live in a retirement community with no kids around). I found, for me at least, there is a difference in treating all guns as if they are loaded and actually being dead sure they are loaded.

Gunbyte welcome to the forum.And accidents happen

Telling others to simply keep your finger off the trigger is like telling someone to drive safe. Does nothing to reduce the number of accidents.

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If you can't figure out a way for YOU to safely handle guns, then there's not much anyone else can do about it. But for you to believe that no one else on earth has figured out how to handle firearms safely, then you're mistaken. But it's more than 4 rules. It's also about knowing yourself and how you are going to be most likely to break them.

Dryfiring is a perfect example. You're breaking the universal gun safety rules when you dryfire. If you want to play with your guns, you need to figure out a protocol that works for you.

Freak accidents happen. But getting an unexpected bang when you willfully pull the trigger is something that SOME people can avoid.

"Those who will have an ND in the future, and those who will be vigilant enough not to."

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The word "vigilant" is a nice choice here. Every time you pull the trigger, you are testing your knowledge of whether or not there is a round ready to be fired from the gun. "I'm pretty sure" is not the standard. The vigilant owner will know for certain.

Here's an example:

Yesterday I removed the magazine disconnect safety from my LC9, and wanted to show the result to my neighbor, who works on guns as a hobby. He was curious. So I did this:

1. Took the magazine out of the gun
2. Worked the slide, ensured the chamber was empty
3. Inspected the box where I'd stored the rounds - counted 8

Then I took it over to show him. When I handed him the gun, it was pointed in a safe direction. I told him it was unloaded. As usual, he:

1. Removed the magazine
2. Worked the slide and ensured the chamber was empty

Then he kept the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and tried a dry fire to see how the mag disconnect procedure had been accomplished.

In other words, it isn't "just checking." You layer safety in successive procedures and habits, doing them religiously, regardless of "common sense." Even when you know for sure the gun is empty, you still check the chamber one more time before pulling the trigger, because it's an automatic habit.

The primary way that NDs happen is through carelessness. Getting sloppy. Being complacent. Yet, familiarity does not have to breed contempt. Every time you handle a firearm, you have a Golden Opportunity to yet again ingrain good habits and institutionalize in your memory the rules of safety.

It is wrong and insulting to say that people who spend a lot of time with guns are more likely to have an ND, because they are firing 100,000 rounds, or a million, or whatever. If anything, the more you shoot, the better your procedures should be.

We don't expect the airline pilot to occasionally crash the plane.

When someone who never had one gets all preachy about it I just tell them that perhaps they do not shoot enough because if you handle a gun thousands of times the odds are that you will have an accident.

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Some will go though life without having an ND for a number of reasons, but anyone who handles a firearm is potentially one "opps" away. A person who religiously follows all four rules has an excellent chance of going out with a clean record, but all it takes is one lapse in memory, one distraction, one moment of confusion and, BANG. Unfortunately, we are all subject to all of the above.

When someone who never had one gets all preachy about it I just tell them that perhaps they do not shoot enough because if you handle a gun thousands of times the odds are that you will have an accident.

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No: dead wrong. NDs are not a function of length of exposure; they are a function of carelessness (even if it is infrequent carelessness).

This is reminds me of the (hypothetical) teenager's objection to a parent telling them not to do something, like smoke marijuana. Either the parent never smoked marijuana (in which case they don't know what they're talking about) or he/she did smoke (and is being hypocritical in setting the rule). So either way, the teenager can feel justified in ignoring the parent!

Well, I have shot enough to have an ND; and I am extremely "preachy" about the fact that, since completely changing my gunhandling and attitude, I haven't had another. Not "braggy" as in I'm better than you, but "preachy" as in "if you've had one, please change your ways!"

So, people can ignore me on both counts!

For me the most important rule of safe gun handling is to always make sure that when I pull the trigger the gun is pointed in a safe direction

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I agree, but I would say that should NOT be the only rule you care about. We are human, as you point out. Depending on only one rule is like depending on only one feature of a firearm to make it "safe." I think we need several rules, even if they overlap, and we need to follow them all scrupulously.

The central features of successful safety systems are redundancy and consistency, IMHO. Redundancy especially, since we humans are not known for our perfect consistency.

In addition to Col. Cooper's 4 Rules, double cycling of the slide on semi's, manually inserting a finger into the chamber to make certain the firearm is safe, and opening the action before handing someone else a gun, etc., I take several other precautions:
-Holstering/reholstering: Making sure nothing interferes with the trigger or is inside of the trigger guard (i.e. part of the holster, shirt tail, jacket drawstring, etc.); keeping my thumb between the hammer and slide (on 1911's) or on the back of the slide (striker fired);
-One caliber at a time on the shooting bench at the range;
-Snap caps when dry firing;
-Inspection and safety checks when cleaning, paying particular attention to make sure the firing pin moves freely, there are no unusual wear points and the safeties are functioning properly;
-One type of firearm: I carry, compete and train with only one type of firearm with a common manual of arms. I started with revolvers, went to SA/DA, 1911's and for the last year striker fired handguns. Sure, I like to switch off, but I only do it occasionally and only at the range.
Obviously, YMMV, but so far, so good.
Steve

There are some good bits in there.

-Inspection and safety checks when cleaning, paying particular attention to make sure the firing pin moves freely, there are no unusual wear points and the safeties are functioning properly;

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I like this one. This is one benefit of a hammer fired over striker, IMO. I find myself pressing on the exposed firing pin of my hammer-fired pistols after any dry fire session, to ensure the FP spring and/or FP block are still working.

Here are a couple more I have.
1. I never drop the slide after a chamber check. Dropping the slide is how I LOAD a gun. After it's unloaded, I ride the slide home, slowly, while watching the chamber. If there was anything in the mag well, which I just checked, I would see and feel it.
2. I never leave a loaded gun lying in the open unless it's holstered. There's no inherent problem with this for others. I do this because I dry fire my guns. Yes, I still check the chamber any time I pick a gun up to dry fire it. But I don't pick up a holstered gun until I need to.

For me the most important rule of safe gun handling is to always make sure that when I pull the trigger the gun is pointed in a safe direction

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I agree, but I would point out that should NOT be the only rule you care about. We are human, as you point out. Depending on only one rule is like depending on only one feature of a firearm to make it "safe." I think we need several rules, even if they overlap, and we need to follow them all scrupulously.

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I completely agree that there should be one or two rules that are considered the most important. Especially when teaching newbies. The other dozens of rules we pick up along the way are too much for the new guy.

For me it's 1. Muzzle control. Actively point the firearm in a safe direction at all times. 2. Finger out of the trigger guard unless I'm shooting.

I also try to drill into newbies to pick up a handgun like they mean it. I tell them to pretend they're a mall ninja SWAT guy. How would they hold it? Yeah, hold it like that. Wrist straight. Gun inline with the forearm. Because when you pick up a gun as if you're going to shoot it, you will be actively pointing it at something. Picking up a gun like an object of curiosity or fear puts your focus on the gun, not on what it's pointed at. Sometimes new guys are self-conscious that they'll appear like they've watched too many action movies, so I put that point at ease from the start. Go ahead and pretend you know what you're doing in that one regard.

1. Took the magazine out of the gun
2. Worked the slide, ensured the chamber was empty
3. Inspected the box where I'd stored the rounds - counted 8

Then I took it over to show him. When I handed him the gun, it was pointed in a safe direction. I told him it was unloaded. As usual, he:

1. Removed the magazine
2. Worked the slide and ensured the chamber was empty

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I have argued with friends for not doing this. It's not a matter of trust or respect. It's a matter of personal responsibility for gun safety.

I am certainly glad to see a few peope so certain that it will never happen to them. Heard it before from shooters ranked in the top ten in the world, gun testers for magazines and a few spec ops friends of mine not to mention LEOs in my family. Apparently some are better than they are and not subject to mistakes just because they have not happened yet. Good for you.

Are you familiar with some of the studies done on this One in particular showed that if you check your chamber a few thousand times and it is empty your mind gets trained to see it empty. Then when there is a round in it your mind sees it empty. This is much like what I experience after my dog died and I kept thinking I saw him in certain places where I was used to seeing him. Other studies show that trained professionals "seek the comfort of their trigger" during high stress and do not even know it until they watch the video tapes. A recent study showed that for some people they just cannot help it, in other words, their mental makeup will give them higher odds that they will seek their trigger under stress more than others. We are all different so we differ in the kind and frequency of mistakes we make.

For fun someday just search the internet and see how many professionals, even those who teach gun safety, have had NDs.

GunByte said:

Are you familiar with some of the studies done on this One in particular showed that if you check your chamber a few thousand times and it is empty your mind gets trained to see it empty. Then when there is a round in it your mind sees it empty.

Other studies show that trained professionals "seek the comfort of their trigger" during high stress and do not even know it until they watch the video tapes.

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Great information, thanks for posting it.

I wonder if those who claim it is inconceivable that they would have an ND tend to be less careful about muzzle control. Whereas those who have had an ND may tend to be more careful to control the muzzle so that even if there is an ND, it is unlikely to cause any harm. It would not surprise me if those who deny the possibility of having an ND are more likely in the long run to injure themselves or somebody else.

Quote:

"I wonder if those who claim it is inconceivable that they would have an ND tend to be less careful about muzzle control. Whereas those who have had an ND may tend to be more careful to control the muzzle so that even if there is an ND, it is unlikely to cause any harm. It would not surprise me if those who deny the possibility of having an ND are more likely in the long run to injure themselves or somebody else."

Or on the other hand perhaps it is just human nature for people that screw up to think that everyone else is destined to screw up as well.

My take on it is that if you can handle a firearm one time without an negligent discharge, you can handle it one million. If the proper procedures are followed rigorously each and every time, then an ND is impossible. Sure a lot of people have it happen, but it's realistic to say that a mental lapse occured when it did, which is a lapse of discipline, which can (and should be) corrected. If no damage is done, then it can be counted as a learning experience, if it is treated as such; if it's laughed off without a serious reconsideration of the failure to follow procedure then perhaps another hobby might be advisable.

I have witnessed shots fired as a result of a malfunctioning firearm, it can and does happen. Muzzle control is a big part of proper procedure, which is why a firearm is NEVER pointed at something you don't want to get shot, including your own body parts.

That saying is similar to the one about motorcycles-"those who have went down, and those who will"-which is bullcrap.

Before I comment on my experience, I have a question:

If you believe your gun to be empty, and you aim it at something safe to shoot, and you pull the trigger expecting a "click", and it shoots, is that a true negligent discharge?

I would say yes.

PowerG said:

My take on it is that if you can handle a firearm one time without an negligent discharge, you can handle it one million. If the proper procedures are followed rigorously each and every time, then an ND is impossible. Sure a lot of people have it happen, but it's realistic to say that a mental lapse occured when it did, which is a lapse of discipline, which can (and should be) corrected. If no damage is done, then it can be counted as a learning experience, if it is treated as such; if it's laughed off without a serious reconsideration of the failure to follow procedure then perhaps another hobby might be advisable.

I have witnessed shots fired as a result of a malfunctioning firearm, it can and does happen. Muzzle control is a big part of proper procedure, which is why a firearm is NEVER pointed at something you don't want to get shot, including your own body parts.

That saying is similar to the one about motorcycles-"those who have went down, and those who will"-which is bullcrap.

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motorcyclists are not in control of every variable on the road. Therefore that saying is NOT bullcrap, your sentence is. The only motorcyclists that do not go down are the ones that die before their time comes or that quit riding before their time comes. Same is true of driving a car.

I've had one AD and one ND. The AD was trying to get the mag out of my kids 22 - not being familiar with the gun and its operation, and accidentally got the bugger hook on the bang switch.
The second was simply negligence on my part, screwing around with my revolver after cleaning it.

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Actually, they were both NDs. If your finger is on the trigger, and the weapon discharges, it is operating as it was designed to do.

If you believe your gun to be empty, and you aim it at something safe to shoot, and you pull the trigger expecting a "click", and it shoots, is that a true negligent discharge?

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Yes. Your finger was on the trigger, and the weapon operated as designed.