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Those who've had a ND, and those who are going to.

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Dnaltrop, Jul 10, 2011.

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  1. Dnaltrop

    Dnaltrop Member

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    Joined the Club today.. #%$%$$#.

    Old man's Taurus Tracker 9 shot .22 still having cycling problems, cylinder locks up in DA, dumped it, reloaded it... was chatting with the other folks and emptied it again.. turned to dump the brass, was stopped by a question.

    turned back towards the range, pointed at a downward angle, intending to use the spent.22's as snap caps to demonstrate the easily reproducable problem.

    3 clicks and there goes a divot on the floor. Lost count of rounds fired, and one of the cylinder locks apparently managed to cycle enough to skip the round.

    Nobody injured. but holy hell I'm angry at myself today... 29 years of a perfect record down the tubes.

    Thankfully 3 other folks on the line (after everyone checked for wounds) shared their own ND stories, and worse ones than mine... but minor as it is I'm going to be kicking myself for a while.

    Side note, 2 trips to Taurus service and this damn revolver still won't complete a full load without the screwed up timing locking the cylinder up. I know lots of folks here have flawless Taurus, I don't seem to be laying hands on the good ones .

    Off to clean the guns and beat myself up some more. Feh.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
  2. luigi

    luigi Member

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    That sounds more like a genuine malfunction than a ND
     
  3. Dnaltrop

    Dnaltrop Member

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    The cylinder problems yes.

    My pulling the trigger having miscounted the rounds, with the barrel pointed at the floor downrange... That's ND. Just glad I was at least pointed close to the right direction. 45 degrees up and it would have just gone downrange.
     
  4. Clifford

    Clifford Member

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    He-he.... I bet you nearly pooped yourself.

    Many have made similar mistakes. Some will chime in like me and say "bet you won't do that again" or "did you learn your lesson?" then you will get the " I have never and will never make that mistake" folks. Let the fun begin!

    FWIW, I've had one ND and one near ND. The short of both of them is I got too comfortable with my gun handling routine and the first time I put a .45 into a steel basketball backboard. The second time I nearly blasted my loading bench but as I squeezed the trigger on my revolver I thought "ya know I only see 4 rounds on the bench and my Smith holds 5" I eased back off of the trigger and when I opened the cylinder back up I found one of my rounds still in the cylinder and lined up to fire had I finished pulling that trigger.
     
  5. EddieNFL

    EddieNFL member

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    Only way to be 100 percent certain of never experiencing an ND is to never pick up a firearm.
     
  6. David E

    David E Member

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    The two loudest sounds in the world are:

    1) A BANG when you're expecting a click.

    2) A CLICK when you're expecting a bang.
     
  7. orionengnr

    orionengnr Member

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    Thank you for sharing, and for "manning up" and taking responsibility for your actions. It's becoming a lost art.

    I had one about 25 years ago, long before I ever heard of the Four Rules. The only things standing between me and a recurrence are good habits and dilligence. Complacency is the enemy.
     
  8. Dnaltrop

    Dnaltrop Member

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    I grew up in a household where "lying by omission" is as bad as any other lie.

    Even worse, my old man was standing over my shoulder... one of the most safety conscious shooters you'll ever meet. I'll be hearing about this for years

    It's still just sticking in my gut, I think I'll have to hit the range again tomorrow just to reassure myself that i'm suddenly not some uncontrolled Yahoo.
     
  9. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    Regarding the title, I disagree. I'm sure there are plenty of people who handle guns frequently that will go their entire lives without an ND.

    But I think you're doing fine, OP. I tend to think my revolver is empty when it stops shooting, too. At least, enough to try dryfiring it while pointing downrange at a hot gun range. I bet you'd a put eyes on the empty cylinder before trying that at home. Being on a hot gun range you took a liberty and had a freak malfunction. You had the gun pointed at something you were willing to destroy. Just a divot in the floor, and I bet you won't even receive a bill for the damage. :) You did good.
     
  10. Dnaltrop

    Dnaltrop Member

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    I agree... and I used to think that I'd be one of those who'd never screw up.

    I was lucky. but yea. It wasn't a round through my foot (or a family member), a wall in my home... A screw up for me is minor in perspective compared to far worse incidents we've all read (and watched youtube) about.

    Years ago, had 2 different (ex)friends pass rounds within 2 feet of my stomach when they made their semi's safe... by pulling the slide to show the empty chamber... dropping it and THEN removing the mag... and then pulling the trigger to prove me wrong when I shouted they'd chambered a round. The only time I've wished for a magazine safety in any pistols.
     
  11. EddieNFL

    EddieNFL member

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    A certain percentage will beat the odds, be it NDs or auto crashes.
     
  12. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    From the FAQs:

    AD vs ND.

    26. An accident is an unintentional event. When a gun is discharged inadvertently it is an accidental discharge. The use of the term negligent discharge has become popular but in my opinion it is a bad idea. Yes, the vast majority of ADs involve negligence on the part of the operator but negligence is a legal term that assigns responsibility. Describing your unintentional discharge as negligent is admitting guilt to any cop or lawyer who happens to be listening. Until I am certain that I am not being charged with a crime or sued in civil court I prefer to not admit guilt.

    ---------------------------

    I have had two ADs. One was a mechanical malfunction and the other was negligence on my part. No injuries and minimal damage in both cases. To err is human. Nobody is immune.
     
  13. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    That's not completely wrong, but I don't like the wording.

    Once you've learned good gun handling procedures, you should be out of the woods forever after.

    Some people never learn. They're bound to have an ND, eventually.

    So by "beating the odds" you mean certain people were born with the ability to learn, understand, and practice safe gun handling and most are not, then I can agree with you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2011
  14. EddieNFL

    EddieNFL member

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    So, who is responsible for the "accidental" discharge?
     
  15. EddieNFL

    EddieNFL member

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    And some will just be lucky.
     
  16. duns

    duns Member

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    It's a very large club, welcome. I had an ND with a recently purchased gun that I'd never fired (apart from dry firing). One day, I pulled the trigger without checking its status -- after all, it was new and had not yet been to the range. Bang and a crater in the kitchen floor tile. I had loaded it but still have no recollection of doing so. Never trust to memory, always check and double check a gun is clear before dry firing. If there is any gap in your dry firing practice, check the gun again before resuming.
     
  17. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    This (dryfiring) is one of those things that isn't covered in the universal gun rules.

    If you're going to dryfire (other than at a hot range) you need to add some more rules to prevent an accident. Obviously, you should chamber check before you pull the trigger, every time you pick up a gun. But you already knew that, and it happened anyway.

    One of my things is I never load a new firearm except at the range. In fact, I only have the same 2 guns that are ever loaded, and they're always in the same place.

    I'm not a spy/cop/assassin. No one's trying to kill me. I know my new firearm is a toy, first and foremost. I know I'm going to play with it. And I wouldn't depend on an untested firearm, anyway. I have a Glock for that. It works out great, because Glocks are so boring that I wouldn't pick one up to dry fire it, even if it was unloaded.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2011
  18. nortexeric

    nortexeric Member

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    Dnaltrop - Ya know, as far as NDs go, yours wasn't too bad. Redundant measures seem pointless until one or multiple fail. As someone else mentioned, you were pointing downrange as oppose to at someone, when it happened. That is far better than some of the ones I have seen. During my time overseas, I saw my fair share of NDs. The ones that were the worse were where the individual had no regard for what they were doing, nor the discipline required to insure safe handling of a firearm. I see this more as not an example of 'what not to do', but a successful example of why you should take extra precautions. My Dad who drilled firearm safety into my head way before the Army did had a ND due to a malfunction, yet it only punched a hole in the wall as oppose to a hole into any of the people standing in the room with him. Why? You just don't point loaded guns at people. Redundant measures. We are human, we make mistakes, but we try to make sure we minimize them as much as possible. So don't beat yourself up too much, chalk it to a life experience and get that Taurus fixed!

    -Eric
     
  19. orionengnr

    orionengnr Member

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    I think I would have had two ex-friends who would have had to take advantage of their dental insurance. :)

    See my previous post about taking responsibility for your actions being a lost art, and then sugar coat it any way you want. The example above is a perfect one.

    By the accepted definitions of every gun board I've been on:
    --if the discharge was due to a repeatable equipment malfunction, it was an AD.
    --if your finger was on the trigger when the round discharged, it was an ND.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2011
  20. chriske

    chriske Member

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    I killed a perfectly good couch once .
    And with my GF & 2 cats in the room at the time, too.
    I doubt I'll ever forget THAT lesson.
     
  21. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    I had a safe-direction ND before, when one live round remained stuck in a chamber of the cylinder, and the five cartridges in my hand looked like six. I now always stroke the ejector rod, AND look into every chamber. I no longer trust myself to count correctly.

    I was always bad at math, anyway. ;)

    Of course, keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction is paramount. :)
     
  22. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    Shouldn't that phrase read:

    "Those who will have an ND, and those who will have another"?

    If nothing can be done to prevent the first ND, then nothing can be done to prevent the next. If we're going to try "extra hard" to prevent that second ND, we should be trying at least that hard to prevent the first.

    They are preventable. They are always preventable. As soon as everyone feels that down to their toes, then I think we'll be a long way toward accepting responsibity--all of the respoonsibility--for every ND.

    "Those who will have an ND in the future, and those who will be vigilant enough not to." Independent of whether they've already had one (or more). Those are my two groups.

    And yes, accidents (and being negligent) are part of being human. We're going to have to rise above ourselves on this item.
     
  23. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    +1.......
     
  24. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    Good grief. :banghead: You counted the rounds to figure out if your gun was loaded? I wouldn't do that with a single shot.
    How about you just do the latter. That's the only one that means anything. Stroking the ejector rod is just confusing the issue. Reminds me of the guys that rack the slide 5 times without ever looking at the chamber. Just look at the chamber/cylinder for pete's sake (and verify the mag well is empty).
     
  25. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    Stroking the ejector rod IS a step of unloading a revolver. It is actually more thorough than counting rounds, because it is a mechanical action. Merely looking at the chambers can be deceptive, as plenty enough folks have looked at the rear of a cylinder, closed it, and then stroked the trigger after thinking they saw empty holes, when the chambers were actually loaded. In my opinion, during the days when revolvers were the standard duty handgun at my PD, most officers' NDs were of this type.

    I can see the brass of a chambered round in a SIG, in the small gap in the extractor cut, and see the rim of a chambered round in the small slot in the slide of my Seecamp, but I still run the slides to be really sure. So, I will perform the comparable act of stroking the
    ejector rod. (No, I do not run the slide of an auto five times; once is sufficient.)

    I don't remember the terminology, but human beings can be distracted while performing a routine task, and see that which is not there, or fail to see that which is there. That is exactly what
    happened with my ND. I was angry about something, and decided to relax a bit by dry firing. I
    glanced at the rear of the cylinder and at the rounds in my hand, rather than carefully looking at the chambers and THEN carefully looking at the rounds in my hand. Stroking the
    ejector rod would have been the mechanical fail-safe, but I did not do it. Now, I do.

    Edited to add: I no longer dry fire while angry, no matter how relaxing it may be.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
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