Does Energy Count In Handgun Calibers?

Can you provide an example of the kind of ammunition switch you would make for cold weather?

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A lot of people here on THR switch from 380s to something larger in the winter.

Are you aware that states where it gets plenty cold there are large police agencies that have had VERY good results with rounds that tend more towards expansion than penetration?

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Are you saying threr's no chance that they wouldn't have better results with better penatrating rounds?

Examples: Illinois using 9mm 115 grain +P+,

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You sure you want to point to a Illinois bureaucrat's decision as sound?

mljdeckard said:

I will also roll my eyes at people thinking that they can so surely predict the results of different rounds based on weather conditions. Just carry one that works in ALL weather. (I doubt there is as much difference as you think there is anyway.) They will ALL likely completely traverse a human target under most circumstances.

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I've always wondered why folks do that.

It's not like come Oct 15th of every year, folks start wearing soft body armor as cold weather gear.

If KE is such a dominant determining factor for personal defense, why are we even talking about the 9mm and why isn't everyone carrying the 44mag?

Dirty Harry was right!

This thread should be moved to the revolver section.

^
The .380/200 Manstopper worked pretty good using LRN.. they say as good as the .455 Manstopper.

Yes, you can watch the weather if it's going to be 20 degrees out it might be a good idea to lean toward a better penatrating load.

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Why, does the human body get larger in the cold?

A lot of people here on THR switch from 380s to something larger in the winter.

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Probably because they wear more clothing and carrying a larger gun is much easier than it is in the shorts and t-shirt summertime.

And .380 is not a service caliber. Some places may have used the caliber at one time in history as an issued caliber, but it does not fit into the category of service calibers.

If you mean a better penetrating load is desirable in cold weather because winter clothing makes people thicker, then I'd have to point out that when an expanding pistol bullet is affected by heavy clothing, the clothing will affect it by negatively impacting the expansion of the bullet, which directly increases the penetration of the bullet.

Yes, and no.

I've seen more evidence of energy transfer from just plain shooters' mouths, voicing their wrist pain from a short career of IPSC with a .45, making the switch to 9mm.

...and no. As a Deputy Coroner I've seen that shot placement is king, and bullet size/weight has nothing to do with death and killing.

If KE is such a dominant determining factor for personal defense, why are we even talking about the 9mm and why isn't everyone carrying the 44mag?

Dirty Harry was right!

This thread should be moved to the revolver section.

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Too much of a good thing. Full power 10mm, .41 and .44 Mags have been used by some Clint Eastwood LE types. What was found is that the energy is so high that the JHPs did not expand. Instead they behaved more like an FMJ and overpenetrated.

Double

And .380 is not a service caliber. Some places may have used the caliber at one time in history as an issued caliber, but it does not fit into the category of service calibers.

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Sorry didn't realize I needed to fit your arbitrary service caliber spec. Just substitute 38 special for 380

If you mean a better penetrating load is desirable in cold weather because winter clothing makes people thicker, then I'd have to point out that when an expanding pistol bullet is affected by heavy clothing, the clothing will affect it by negatively impacting the expansion of the bullet, which directly increases the penetration of the bullet.

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Maybe bullets designed 20 years ago like some of the +p+ 115gr 9mm are. But I really wouldn't concider those a good choice in cold climates because of inconsistant expansion through clothing and limited penatration when they do expand. I however think they'd be a fine choice in southern ****.
Most of the better modern bullets do just fine expanding through the FBIs heavy clothing test.
I really don't think the concept I'm suggesting is all that dang difficult.
If it's cold pay more attention to the way a bullet performs in the heavy clothing test, If it's warm lean more toward how ammo behaves in bare gel.
For the record I don't give a rodent's behind what ammo you use as long as your shootin the same direction I am, but you asked

.380 is not a service caliber.

Generally service caliber handguns are 9x19, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .38spl and .357 magnum.

Substantially similar cartridges might also be counted, depending on the context. .45 GAP, .357 SIG, etc.

Think of it this way...for what calibers can you buy Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, or Winchester Ranger?

Sorry didn't realize I needed to fit your arbitrary service caliber spec. Just substitute 38 special for 380

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But it's perfectly fine to answer my question with an example of people downsizing to very small guns in hot weather?

The question was what kind of situation would make one well designed service caliber JHP a significantly different choice than another well designed JHP from a near-identical caliber? Being forced to carry a pocket pistol in the summertime is not the same as consciously switching from one .40 JHP to an equal quality JHP from a .357 Sig in a gun of identical dimensions.

Warp, first your a little late. read then reread then post

mavracer said:

Sorry didn't realize I needed to fit your arbitrary service caliber spec. Just substitute 38 special for 380

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second speer golddots and winchester ranger are both avaliable for a 380 so that's not really a good method

But it's perfectly fine to answer my question with an example of people downsizing to very small guns in hot weather?

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Yes, because one of the reasons often cited that people are comfortable doing so is the lack of heavy clothing on BGs.

The question was what kind of situation would make one well designed service caliber JHP a significantly different choice than another well designed JHP from a near-identical caliber?

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already answered

mavracer said:

If it's cold pay more attention to the way a bullet performs in the heavy clothing test, If it's warm lean more toward how ammo behaves in bare gel.

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CZ57 said:

Too much of a good thing. Full power 10mm, .41 and .44 Mags have been used by some Clint Eastwood LE types. What was found is that the energy is so high that the JHPs did not expand. Instead they behaved more like an FMJ and overpenetrated.

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Energy doesn't cause a JHP to expand or fail to expand. Bullets are designed to operate w/i a specific velocity window. Push a bullet beyond its velocity design and it will over expand, thus reducing its penetration, or, it can frag. A great example of pushing a bullet beyond its velocity design window is the 124gr Gold Dot when loaded to 38Super/357SIG velocities. Change the bullet to the shallow cavity 125gr Gold Dot and the bullet performs well given the added stress placed upon it.

Choose a bullet designed for personal defense in 44mag and it will perform as well as any of the more popular service calibers. Actually, I have a box (500 rounds) of 40 S&W ammunition that was issued to a federal LE agency and it delivers penetration in the 18" range.

One of the most destructive bullets I've ever tested is the 210gr Silvertip in 44mag, it explodes like a varmint bullet, yet it retains enough mass to penetrate w/i the FBI's preferred 12"-18" range; and less than the above 40S&W.

Let's remember, the Silvertip bullet was designed for law enforcement, including 357/44mags.

FWIW, not that long ago I had the fortune to spend some time with a retired homicide detective, from a very large Texas city, who grandfathered in with the M29/4".

2zulu1 said:

Energy doesn't cause a JHP to expand or fail to expand. Bullets are designed to operate w/i a specific velocity window. Push a bullet beyond its velocity design and it will over expand, thus reducing its penetration, or, it can frag. A great example of pushing a bullet beyond its velocity design window is the 124gr Gold Dot when loaded to 38Super/357SIG velocities. Change the bullet to the shallow cavity 125gr Gold Dot and the bullet performs well given the added stress placed upon it.

Choose a bullet designed for personal defense in 44mag and it will perform as well as any of the more popular service calibers. Actually, I have a box (500 rounds) of 40 S&W ammunition that was issued to a federal LE agency and it delivers penetration in the 18" range.

One of the most destructive bullets I've ever tested is the 210gr Silvertip in 44mag, it explodes like a varmint bullet, yet it retains enough mass to penetrate w/i the FBI's preferred 12"-18" range; and less than the above 40S&W.

Let's remember, the Silvertip bullet was designed for law enforcement, including 357/44mags.

FWIW, not that long ago I had the fortune to spend some time with a retired homicide detective, from a very large Texas city, who grandfathered in with the M29/4".

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That's a very good observation 2z1.

I've never seen a bullet fail to expand because it was pushed too fast. Pushed too fast, they fragment excessively and penetration is reduced greatly.

The Silvertip, as you've noted, offers good expansion.

IIRC, in that test, that 210 gr Silvertip hit the water bags at a speed of 1570 fps, expanded to an average diameter of 0.617" and retained 116.3 gr of its initial 210 grain mass. The Schwartz bullet penetration model indicates that it would penetrate to a depth of 12.19 inches and permanently crush 1.79 ounces of soft tissue along the way.

It's a great round.

mavracer said:

Warp, first your a little late. read then reread then post

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.380 is not a service caliber.

warp said:

.380 is not a service caliber.

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for the fourth time now

mavracer said:

Just substitute 38 special for 380

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:banghead:

Obviously energy counts: it's necessary to ensure enough penetration and reliable expansion. Cartridges that don't have both those qualities with JHPs (e.g. .380ACP), suffer a bit from the lack of energy. They've got enough either to penetrate deeply or expand, but not both.

I think a better way to put it would have been, assuming sufficient energy for reliable penetration and expansion with JHPs, is extra energy a really significant factor? The answer seems to be, not very. Someone already mentioned the shooting of Trooper Coates, where the trooper got hit once with a .22LR and died, while shooting his attacker 4 times center mass with a .357 magnum, and the bad guy survived. At handgun velocities, extra energy doesn't seem to be all that important. More energy seems to increase the size of the temporary wound cavity, but evidence suggests that's not all the significant. The size of the permanent wound cavity is what matters (and whether or not it intersects anything vital, of course), and handgun bullets that can penetrate deeply and damage a vital organ, and do with relatively little energy seem to do just fine, as long as they can achieve that minimum necessary penetration, and as long as the shooter can hit something vital.

This may mean that back in the days before JHPs, you really were just as well off with a .380 or even a .32 as you were with a .38 revolver. After all, when all bullets were FMJ or round nose lead, they all had enough penetration (assuming no intermediate barriers), and they made the same size holes, or close enough. This might also explain why .36 caliber Colt navy revolvers were the belt pistol of choice for many in the cap and ball era, even with .44s available -- given solid, non expanding projectiles, either you hit something vital and it stopped the bad guy, or it didn't, and he didn't stop (unless he lost heart for the fight -- a psychological factor beyond one's control). Assuming a hit to a vital organ, either the .36 or the .44 ball would probably do about as well at achieving incapacitation. There just wasn't enough difference in size or in energy to make a really significant difference.

I think you have to step up to rifle rounds before the extra energy makes a really decisive impact. With a long gun, you can get a lot more energy by having either a much heavier projectile, or much higher velocity, or both, which allows you do achieve more tissue damage from things like hydrostatic shock, which no handgun round will attain.

.38spl (+P) >> .380

Warp, I'm not sure why your still stuck on the 380. Take the 380 out of the discussion since it is succh a distraction for you and replace it with a 38 snub. For the intent of my statement they would work the same as a lot of THR members ALSO carry a 38 snub in warm weather and trade it out for a 357 in colder weather. Understan there are many other possibilitys the 38 to 357 is only one possibility and it may or may not require changing guns as 38s can be shot in a 357.

Energy doesn't cause a JHP to expand or fail to expand. Bullets are designed to operate w/i a specific velocity window. Push a bullet beyond its velocity design and it will over expand, thus reducing its penetration, or, it can frag. A great example of pushing a bullet beyond its velocity design window is the 124gr Gold Dot when loaded to 38Super/357SIG velocities. Change the bullet to the shallow cavity 125gr Gold Dot and the bullet performs well given the added stress placed upon it.

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Energy and momentum are exactly what cause JHPs to expand. Raise velocity and you raise energy and momentum. The older .41 and .44 Magnum loads with fairly heavy jacket designs were found to be too high in energy to reliably expand their jackets in thin skinned humans and caused them to act like FMJ. The incidents were reported by M&S where they recommended the use of lower velocity/energy loads.

The difference is that in the energy calculation velocity is squared making it more proportionately equatable to energy. We're talking about .44 magnum, 9mm is not a good example because bullets are not constructed nearly as heavily as those for the .44 Magnum. 9mm bullets should never be use to load .357 SIG defense loads. I'm not saying the .44 can't be used, but the best loads have considerably lower velocity/energy.

IIRC, in that test, that 210 gr Silvertip hit the water bags at a speed of 1570 fps, expanded to an average diameter of 0.617" and retained 116.3 gr of its initial 210 grain mass. The Schwartz bullet penetration model indicates that it would penetrate to a depth of 12.19 inches and permanently crush 1.79 ounces of soft tissue along the way.

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Evidently, you don't recall so well. The 210 gr. Silvertip in .44 Magnum has a rated muzzle velocity of 1250 FPS.

481 said:

That's a very good observation 2z1.

I've never seen a bullet fail to expand because it was pushed too fast. Pushed too fast, they fragment excessively and penetration is reduced greatly.

The Silvertip, as you've noted, offers good expansion.

IIRC, in that test, that 210 gr Silvertip hit the water bags at a speed of 1570 fps, expanded to an average diameter of 0.617" and retained 116.3 gr of its initial 210 grain mass. The Schwartz bullet penetration model indicates that it would penetrate to a depth of 12.19 inches and permanently crush 1.79 ounces of soft tissue along the way.

It's a great round.

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Yeah, the 210s are in the 10mm/180, 45/230gr sectional density group, so it makes for a decent weight to carry for personal defense.

This pic illustrates the violent expansion I was referring to;



Five water bottles were placed on this table with railroad ties placed on three sides. There's about 70lbs of wood laying on the ground, bottles #1, #2, #4 and #5 exploded. Number 3 bottle was not hit, meaning it had to bounce high enough for the Silvertip to pass underneath it, about 3"+. In this test, the ST expanded to over 0.7".

We've certainly witnessed our share of 40 designed bullets that have over expanded and/or fragged, at 10mm velocities, resulting in much less penetration than the same bullets at 40 velocities. As we know from experience, increased KE does not cause a JHP to behave like a FMJ, it's typically a plugged hollow cavity that prevents the JHP from expanding.

You're basing your conclusions on shooting water jugs? Water will make any JHP expand and is much different than the soft tissue of human beings. Give me a break!

CZ57 said:

Energy and momentum are exactly what cause JHPs to expand. Raise velocity and you raise energy and momentum. The older .41 and .44 Magnum loads with fairly heavy jacket designs were found to be too high in energy to reliably expand their jackets in thin skinned humans and caused them to act like FMJ. The incidents were reported by M&S where they recommended the use of lower velocity/energy loads.

The difference is that in the energy calculation velocity is squared making it more proportionately equatable to energy. We're talking about .44 magnum, 9mm is not a good example because bullets are not constructed nearly as heavily as those for the .44 Magnum. 9mm bullets should never be use to load .357 SIG defense loads. I'm not saying the .44 can't be used, but the best loads have considerably lower velocity/energy.



Evidently, you don't recall so well. The 210 gr. Silvertip in .44 Magnum has a rated muzzle velocity of 1250 FPS.

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Well, you're certainly in the dark here. The test 481 was referring to was a 210gr Silvertip loaded to 1570fps;



Unlike the 210gr Gold Dot that over expanded as previously posted, the ST fragged;



For someone who places such a high emphasis on real world experiences, perhaps you should put M&S down for awhile and conduct your own experiments.

We know that 210gr Silvertips have performed extremely well on white tail deer, to think they wouldn't perform well against a 200# felon is foolish.

Maybe it's time to get past the KE myth and begin dialogue regarding cavitation and stress.