Well, you're wrong, again. Soft tissue, pig gut and water will expand bullets to basically the same diameter. In fact, the FBI uses water to assist in ammunition evaluations before ballistic gel protocol tests. Additionally, MacPherson's research lead him to formulate graphs that correlate water testing to ballistic gel penetration. Schwartz increased the reliability of water testing by incorporating over 700 real world data points to formulate his mathematical models.You're basing your conclusions on shooting water jugs? Water will make any JHP expand and is much different than the soft tissue of human beings. Give me a break!
Does Energy Count In Handgun Calibers?
- Thread starter kokapelli
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CZ57
member
Go to the Winchester Ammunition website and you'll see that the 210 gr. Silvertip in .44 Magnum has a Rated muzzle velocity of 1250 FPS. Before you emphasize anything, try to get your facts right.
coolluke01
Member
You can get 14" of penetration with a BB gun?
If the BB can penetrate 12 plus inches that might be true, but since we all know the BB can't penetrate 12" your argument is not valid.
On the other hand if a 9mm penetrates the FBI recommended minimum of 12" and a 380 round will also meet FBI depth standards, how does the energy factor figure in, in this scenario?
.38spl (+P) >> .380
One does not, IMO, "substitute" for the other.
Also, one is a service caliber cartridge. The other is not.
coolluke01
Member
I can throw a baseball at you with more energy than a 9mm but it will not penetrate at all. When reaching vitals energy is not the important factor to MEASURE All factors play a part, but when deciding between on caliber or another, or loading, energy is not the best measurement to look at. Real world penetration is the best measurement next would be momentum, it would seem.
You can throw a baseball at 200 mph?
what is your problem, dude ignore the fact I ever said 380 please for the love of god.
Focus now, a lot of people carry a 38 snub in the summer and switch to a more powerful gun in colder weather. Now I can't say it any plainer.
Yes, some people carry a larger gun when their clothing more easily conceals it.
coolluke01
Member
While I may have overstated my fastball and I didn't do the math, the point is that a 200 mph baseball (if that is the equivalent of a 9mm) will not penetrate 14" but a 9mm with less energy could.
As I stated, the 210gr Silvertip was loaded to 1570fps, same load that gave the 210gr Gold Dot an MV of 1570fps. As I recollect, AA #9 was the powder used.Go to the Winchester Ammunition website and you'll see that the 210 gr. Silvertip in .44 Magnum has a Rated muzzle velocity of 1250 FPS. Before you emphasize anything, try to get your facts right.
The original experiment was conducted to do a heads up comparison between the GD and ST. At 1570fps both bullets performed differently, the Gold Dot over expanded, reducing penetration to 9"+. The ST fragged, yet retained enough mass to penetrate ~12". In yet another test, the MV of the GD was reduced and the bullet expanded less, causing increased penetration to 14".
Pictures of the recovered bullets were posted along with their data, you may wish to reread those posts in order to comprehend what was written.
It really doesn't serve any useful purpose to be argumentative about a person's chronographed load data, but I'm not the only one you are in conflict with.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Let's look at it with a little different perspective.
Consider the M193 ball round, which consisted of a 55-grain boattail bullet at a claimed 3250 fps and compare it with the original .45-70 Cavalry load...a 405 grain bullet at around 1250-1300 fps.
There is little practical difference in their respective muzzle energy figures...but if you're facing a charging Grizzly at a range of 50 feet...which one would you rather be holding?
And for the sake of keeping it apples to apples...we're assuming single-shot rifles.
Consider the M193 ball round, which consisted of a 55-grain boattail bullet at a claimed 3250 fps and compare it with the original .45-70 Cavalry load...a 405 grain bullet at around 1250-1300 fps.
There is little practical difference in their respective muzzle energy figures...but if you're facing a charging Grizzly at a range of 50 feet...which one would you rather be holding?
And for the sake of keeping it apples to apples...we're assuming single-shot rifles.
coolluke01
Member
I would rather hold the rifle that weighs the least if its a single shot. Cause if I'm being charged by a huge bear, I'm running!
The larger round would feel more "comforting" but I would have to see how it performs to say for sure. What sort of penitration can you expect from this round?
The larger round would feel more "comforting" but I would have to see how it performs to say for sure. What sort of penitration can you expect from this round?
coolluke01
Member
Oh, but this isn't a good comparison for this discussion. We are talking handgun calibers. Rifle rounds are able to cause damage handgun rounds could never dream of.
Tuner=:banghead:
Guess some would just rather argue than understand.
If energy isn't a good way to judge in rifle rounds, where most agree that energy is at least a factor. Why would you think it would be a better way to judge pistol rounds, where most agree it's not as much of a factor as rifle rounds.
Guess some would just rather argue than understand.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
It wasn't meant to be a comparison. It was rather an illustration to show the fallacy of relying on energy figures to predict terminal ballistics, regardless of the platform. Energy is only one factor to consider, and...in my bear analogy...probably the least important one.
You'd just die tired. A Griz can outrun a horse for about the first 50 yards.
Energy release at the point of impact is important. I'm not a ballistics expert but knockdown power is directly associated with released energy at the point of impact. Bullet cross-section, expansion, penetration and placement all play a part in the effectivity of a handgun round on a perpetrator.
I come from the Harry Callahan school of thought. Bigger isn't always better but it ain't bad. Even Harry punched paper with lighter .44 Special ammo.
Not everyone needs a .44mag but even James Bond was persuaded to give up his .25cal Beretta 416 in lieu of the stouter .380 Walther PPK. There is also the matter of deterrence. You pull out a Beretta 950S Minx and bad people may not relent, you pull out a 1911 and they might think twice.
"Nothing wrong with shooting as long as the right people get shot."
Harry Callahan, Magnum Force, 1973
I come from the Harry Callahan school of thought. Bigger isn't always better but it ain't bad. Even Harry punched paper with lighter .44 Special ammo.
Not everyone needs a .44mag but even James Bond was persuaded to give up his .25cal Beretta 416 in lieu of the stouter .380 Walther PPK. There is also the matter of deterrence. You pull out a Beretta 950S Minx and bad people may not relent, you pull out a 1911 and they might think twice.
"Nothing wrong with shooting as long as the right people get shot."
Harry Callahan, Magnum Force, 1973
This is true for the most part, but the "lowly" 44 Special loaded with Keith style bullets, @950fps, has been documented to cleanly take 500# hogs. Actually, this combination will penetrate deeper in soft tissue than the 9mm/115gr FMJ.
I can't speak for Tuner, but I interpreted his post to be a comparison between two different types of bullet construction.
The WFN and Keith style bullets I've tested in 357mag, 10mm and 44mag have penetration depths of at least three feet, with some exceeding 40". When I see large boar tracks at my place, the Marlin 1895 is loaded with 405s that penetrate 4ft+. Some 45-70 loads have been tested at 55" and this caliber has successfully taken the big 5.
There have been revolvers built in 45-70, way out of my shooting ability.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
More of a comparison between energy and mass/momentum.
Well, there isn't any real "knockdown" power in any smallarm. If a bullet can physically knock someone down, the man who fires the gun will be knocked down by recoil. It's that whole action/reaction force forward/force backward equal momentum thing.
We'll try again.
If you had to knock down a brick wall, would you choose a framing hammer with speed and energy...or a 10-pound sledge with mass and momentum?
I don't understand why that wiki on hydrostatic shock used energy level as a reference for when the pressure or shear waves would do damage to distant organs. A person falling a short distance into their butt would cause damage to the hippocampus according to the energy number with no minimum velocity needed.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
It counts, but not by itself. Bullet design matters as much if not more.
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